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A345/A346 Problems: The Airlines Speak  
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6937 posts, RR: 63
Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 21885 times:

Many of you will already have read the current issue of Flight International. For those of you who haven't, it includes a very interesting feature on the introduction of the A345/A346 and the problems various airlines encountered.

I've read here on A.Net countless statements about airline X or Y having huge/minor/real/imaginary problems with their A345s or A346s and I've read an equal number of rebuttals. Many posts (on either side) have appeared ill-informed and it's hard to know who to believe.

So it's a breath of fresh air to read Virgin, Lufthansa, Airbus, Rolls-Royce and others - who actually know talking (reasonably) frankly about the issues. I recommend it.

(But it's frustrating that SAA declined to comment and that will no doubt re-ignite the speculation and rumour-mongering.)

148 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12210 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 21785 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Sounds interesting, finally the REAL storys from the airlines about their A345/6 fleet. Could anyone who has the latest Flight International able to post some of the info from the airlines? even if its a shortened version of what is in the magazine.

User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21591 times:

Yeah I second 773ER's comment! Can someone post the article for us to read?


It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21461 times:

I'll 3rd 777ER. I'd like to know what I smell and what I see before I wipe my shoe on the grass.

fluffy

[Edited 2005-05-04 09:31:07]

User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21437 times:

PM,

why didn't you give us a short summary?


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21422 times:

Quoting PM (Thread starter):
So it's a breath of fresh air to read Virgin, Lufthansa, Airbus, Rolls-Royce and others - who actually know talking (reasonably) frankly about the issues. I recommend it.

???

Hey, please inform us !


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12210 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21414 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 4):
I'll 3rd 773ER

I'm 777ER, not 773ER  Smile


User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21400 times:

Ooop. I just went with Monteycarlos....there....how's that?

fluffy


User currently offlinePANAM_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4178 posts, RR: 89
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21390 times:
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COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting PM (Thread starter):
I've read here on A.Net countless statements about airline X or Y having huge/minor/real/imaginary problems with their A345s or A346s and I've read an equal number of rebuttals. Many posts (on either side) have appeared ill-informed and it's hard to know who to believe.

So true. Last year, in particular, saw many a thread about which airline may or may not have been having problems with A345/A346 but as time went by each airline did seem to speak, except SAA, as you pointed out.

Iberia; The debate raged after their decision over the 777 and with EIS some on this site went into overdrive on how the 346, was for IB, a politically motivated disaster. Ironic that they ordered 3 more as a UFO at the time.

Virgin; Yes, Again we all heard how the A346 was not meeting their requirements so Virgin spoke and ordered up to 26!

Be good to see the article but some airlines that have "reportedly" encountered EIS or service difficulties seem to have spoken in the best manner possible.

Regards



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7077 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21303 times:

ATWONLINE: intersting the remarks of Buchholz regarding the A346 in the middle of the article

...........
Lufthansa sees 737 Classics flying beyond 2010, eyes 747 Advanced
Tuesday May 3, 2005
Lufthansa is in no hurry to replace its fleet of 60 737-300s/-500s even though the aircraft have an average age of 14 years, Senior VP-Corporate Fleet Nico Buchholz told ATWOnline.

"From a technical perspective, we don't have to talk about a fleet change now," Buchholz said, adding that Lufthansa would prefer to see "what will happen with the A320, which is already on the market for 16 years. . .and what Boeing intends to do with its 737NGs." Lufthansa plans to operate the 737s for at least several more years because successors to the A320 and 737NG are not expected until 2012-15, he said. "But with a big 737 fleet, there is always a fluctuation of aircraft."

Lufthansa also is studying the future 747 Advanced to supplement its A380s. "We have ordered the A380 which has to deliver to us around 15% lower seat-mile costs compared to our current 747-400s. The operating costs of a 747ADV, [if it is launched] have to be between a 777-300 and the A380," he said. The airline, which ordered 15 A380s and holds five options, is expecting no delays for delivery of its first aircraft by the end of 2007.

Buchholz said Lufthansa is happy with the performance of its A340-600s, of which it has 10, discounting industry rumors that the aircraft has had its share of teething troubles. "The fact that we ordered seven more A340-600s shows that we are quite satisfied with this aircraft," he said.

He sees no urgent need to make a decision for new types like the 787 or the proposed A350, which could replace A340-300s. "Our oldest A340-300 is now around 10 years old. So we have ample time to look for a replacement," he said. Nevertheless, LH would prefer the larger 787-9 or A350-9 versions of the aircraft.

The current 377-aircraft fleet including Lufthansa Passage, Lufthansa Cargo, CityLine and Air Dolomiti is still younger than 10 years on average. At year end, the fleet was listed on the books with a value of €7.3 billion ($9.38 billion) including spare engines. Most of the aircraft are owned by Lufthansa with just 30 on operating leases and 25 via finance lease arrangements.


by Kurt Hofmann



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12210 posts, RR: 18
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 21228 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Columba (Reply 10):

Well LH is ahppy with their A346s, so that kills the storys that LH is unhappy with the A346s


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25723 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 21087 times:

Here is a brief little synopsis. Not all bad.

Virgin -
Suffered most as the carriers service entry date proceeded all other operators.

To build crew time and experience type was introduced summer of 2002 on relatively short LHR-JFK route. Passenger bookings were based on smaller A340-300 to allow easy substitutions.

Part of the reason for choosing the -600 was commonality with the -300, however in practice much of this failed to materialize. Aircraft has lots of new systems and suppliers.

Dispatch reliability the first year was not acceptable. Airbus failed in its goal to deliver a "near mature" aircraft.

Virgins goal of 98.5% technical dispatch reliability is still not being met by fleet on a consistent basis.
Issues of concern with type includes multiple IDG failures, fuel system software faults, galley chillers, engine blades rubbing on casing.

Passenger, cargo performance impressive allowing airline to carry 20tons of cargo plus 306 pax on LHR-HKG route.

Happy with fuel consumption and performance, including sprintness compared to -300 performance.


Cathay -
Dispatch reliability "acceptable", however can be skewed with such a small fleet of only 3 airframe.
Generally happy with fleet, however declines to get into details as carrier is in the midst of selection for additional long haul aircraft


Iberia -
Better passenger/cargo capacity aircraft on Iberia network compared to carriers B747 fleet.

Generally pleased with aircraft, however conceding they had hoped for better dispatch reliability from the start. Overtime however numbers are improving as service bulletins and modifications take effect.

Issues with fuel system software, lavatory system and "several" early engine removals are mentioned.


Singapore -
Refuses to detail problems or point fingers, however acknowledges it has had some service entry problems with its -500s.

Given demands of ultra long haul ops "satisfied" with dispatch reliability.

Support from Airbus and Rolls Royce is good.

Largest issue has to do with keeping crews qualified on type. Ops two daily short haul SIN-CGK rotations along with simulator time to ensure crews meet required one landing per 28 days.


Lufthansa -
Aircraft performed "much better then we hoped for". Aware of many issues Virgin experienced.

Some issues with fuel system and water dispenser system.

Had 3 unplanned engine removals including one inflight shutdown due blade tip-rubbing problems on Trent.

Slightly higher fuel consumption than calculated, however this could be result of CG issues involving location of crew rest module.

Software upgrades and training has brought the -600 reliability of the system is in line with the rest of Lufthansa’s fleet.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 21035 times:

So their basicly isn't much of a problem apart from the aircraft / engines maturing ?

 Sad


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6937 posts, RR: 63
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 21015 times:

Quoting Udo (Reply 5):
PM, why didn't you give us a short summary?

Fair enough. The trouble is, that it isn't a short article! It's one of those pieces that FLIGHT do well that includes a number of related items.

God knows what copyright laws I'm infringing but here are the most relevant bits.

Airbus concedes that the A340-500/600 family had a less than perfect introduction, and lays much of the blame on the aircraft’s ambitious development programme, and partly on the late changes made to some systems.

Poor dispatch reliability ... more system changes than originally expected ...

The new galley cooling system developed for the -500/600 ... quite a few difficulties with early operators ... had to undergo a significant upgrade.

The fuel system ... ongoing problems with spurious fault messages.

The fault has was a software problem in the FCMC – the computer that controls the fuel system – and the command and monitoring ‘com/mon’ logic.

The integrated drive generator (IDG) has suffered problems when the oil is extremely cold (ie -30-40°C).

... dispatch reliability target of 98.5% by the end of the year, compared with the current level of around 98%, an improvement on the initial 18-24 months in service, when it averaged 97-97.5%.

Five airlines tell about their experiences – not all plain-sailing.

There are now 58 A340-500/600s in service (16 -500s and 42 -600s) with nine airlines and one government in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East and North America. All current airline operators were invited to participate in this report, although Air Canada, China Eastern Airlines, Emirates and South African Airways declined to be interviewed.

Virgin ... a fairly bumpy ride with the new quad-jet during the introductory period ... Part of the reason for choosing the -600 was the anticipated commonality benefits with the -300, but in practice some of these have failed to materialise. The -600 was “sold to us as a derivative aircraft, but it is not – there are lots of new systems and suppliers”.

The aim was a technically mature aircraft at entry into service ... didn't happen.

Virgin set a target with Airbus at the start of 2004 that the aircraft needed to achieve a basic on-time performance of 98.5% ... not yet there.

Virgin says Airbus issuing service bulletins to address problems on the aircraft "almost faster than we can do them.''

the fuel system ... unreliable ... not putting the fuel into the right tanks

R-R 53,000-56,000lb thrust (236-249kN) Trent 500 ... some problems ... oil degradation ... compressor blade tips rubbing on the engine casing as clearance was too tight ... Trent 500’s fuel burn very close to book

flight operations ... the -600 has been well received ... the aircraft’s cargo-carrying capability that has really impressed.

potential problem ... early in the A340-600 flight-test programme ... flexing of the forward fuselage during turbulence. However, this has proved less of an issue than feared in service.

Virgin comfortable with the fuel consumption of its A340-600 fleet

Cathay ... generally satisfied with the fleet’s performance, but declines to discuss or even acknowledge any potential problems because it is now evaluating new ultra-long-haul aircraft.

Cathay: acceptance by the passengers and crew have been good.

Iberia is generally pleased with the performance of the -600, but has shared some of the early problems suffered by other operators. In the beginning ... expected to have better dispatch reliability ... fuel software glitches ... some problems with the A340-600’s toilet system

SIA acknowledges it has experienced problems with its A340-500 fleet, but refuses to detail what they are, saying it does not want to point fingers.

SIA ... satisfied with dispatch reliability ... problems encountered have been normal for the introduction of new aircraft types … very seldom has it been pulled out for AOG

A340-500 has been received well by pilots with and without Airbus experience. “The pilots are generally very im­­pres­sed. The technology is very advanced. Compared with the -300 series the performance is much better and the handling is also much better.”

Lufthansa ... relatively trouble-free introduction ... generally pleased with the performance of the Trent 500, but has had three unscheduled removals – mainly due to the blade tip-rubbing problems – and one in-flight shut-down ... due to an electronic engine control system problem ... slightly higher fuel consumption than calculated.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6937 posts, RR: 63
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 20977 times:

A point that is made in the article is that both Virgin and Lufthansa have gone on to re-order the A346 so they're obviously not dissatisfied with it. My reading is that these are models that have experienced more than their share of teething troubles (and they aren't over yet) but that's what they are: teething troubles and not major design faults.

Good summary, Laxintl. Thanks.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10101 posts, RR: 97
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 20977 times:
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Quoting Laxintl (Reply 12):
Happy with fuel consumption and performance, including sprintness compared to -300 performance.



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 12):
Lufthansa -
Aircraft performed "much better then we hoped for".

Thanks for the excellent synopsis, Laxintl - saved me from doing it. It's a great article. Recommended reading for all.

What fascinated me is that the PERFORMANCE issues for A345/6 were ALL based around dispatch rates, reliability, and systems immaturity, and not fuel burn/economy/payload.

EVERY carrier that commented on performance in terms of economy, fuel burn, payload, etc stated that the aircraft either met it's contracted performance, or bettered it (see above).

I've seen so many posts on here stating that no Airbus EVER made its design performance figures on start-up, that I don't read them anymore.

At last some genuine, informed, commentary from the guys that run them.

It's also good to see the universal credit for both Airbus and RR in working so hard to satisfy the Airline's needs.


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 20957 times:

Thanks PM!

It seems there weren't really serious issues with the aircraft - in contrast to permanent negative rumours on this board ("disaster" and so on). Three of the affected airlines placed follow orders for the type which speaks for itself.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineSQ773 From Spain, joined Apr 2005, 200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 20950 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 13):
So their basicly isn't much of a problem apart from the aircraft / engines maturing ?

I absolutely agree with you.

What is really true is that the sales of the 346 and the 345 are not as good as expected, specially for the 345.
I think that the 345 will end up being a kind of Airbus extravaganzza. The longest range aircraft in the world !! So, what ?? ( Until the 777LR came, of course with more range, 2 engines, lower seat -mile cost, and the excellent background of the first family of 777 )


User currently offlinePictues From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 20938 times:

Well Air Canada has spoken, they decided they didn't want to wait for the -500's to mature with only two anyways and have now switched their entire Widebody fleet with B777's and B787's, of course that is ordered. By 2010, if it goes as planned there will be no A340's and possibly no A330's in Air Canada's fleet, although I think the A330's will start to be replaced when Boeing delivers the B787-900 as that is the A330's replacment aircraft adn acording to Boeing website they don't plan on starting delivery of the B787-900 until 2012, subject to change of course.

User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3663 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 20915 times:
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With the 773ER nearing its 1st anniversary of service with AF, I'd like to see a similar analysis for the 773ER and then one later for the 772LR since it doesn't enter into service until 2006. AF has publically praised their aircraft and I don't recall them saying any negative things. However, I wonder about JAL and ANA. They've been flying there 773ERs for awhile now and I wonder how they are doing.

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6937 posts, RR: 63
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 20872 times:

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 20):
With the 773ER nearing its 1st anniversary of service with AF, I'd like to see a similar analysis for the 773ER

No doubt FLIGHT will do exactly that later this year or in 2006.


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 20868 times:

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 18):
What is really true is that the sales of the 346 and the 345 are not as good as expected, specially for the 345.

How do you know who expected what?


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineSQ773 From Spain, joined Apr 2005, 200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 20815 times:

Quoting Udo (Reply 22):
How do you know who expected what?

Common sense based on information that WE all can get from many many sources, in this case Airbus mainly.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6937 posts, RR: 63
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 20799 times:

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 18):
What is really true is that the sales of the 346 and the 345 are not as good as expected

I think it's quite widely agreed that both the A345 and 772LR are niche aircraft and that neither will ever gain large orders. So far the 345 has been quite well-received by EK and SQ with TG just starting operations. Etihad will follow. AC have dropped their two as part of what seems to be a wholescale re-think of their long-haul plans. Meanwhile, the A346 seems to have gained a respectable list of orders - and repeat orders. Virgin, Lufthansa, Emirates and so on aren't fools.

The 773ER and 772LR may be the flavour of the month and they are certainly winning orders but these things often go in phases. It's not that long ago that Boeing were down in the dumps because Iberia and then Thai chose the A346 over the 773ER.

And EK, let's not forget, may be the biggest customer for the 773ER (30) but they have also ordered 28 A345/346s. Last time I looked, Airbus had 110 orders for the A346 from 13 airline customers. They're doing OK.


User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 20723 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 7):
I'm 777ER, not 773ER

My bad, a long day at uni dealing with figures and I am just about ready to pass out... but Liverpool won so my day hasn't been all bad!

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 8):
Ooop. I just went with Monteycarlos....there....how's that?

Yeah my bad!

Quoting PANAM_DC10 (Reply 9):
Be good to see the article but some airlines that have "reportedly" encountered EIS or service difficulties seem to have spoken in the best manner possible.

I think thats the article on small level... its just dealing with how the airlines have integrated it into their fleets and how things have been going, not really concerned with the performance of the aircraft in conventional terms.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 12):
Here is a brief little synopsis. Not all bad.

Cheers Laxintl!

Quoting PM (Reply 14):
Airbus concedes that the A340-500/600 family had a less than perfect introduction, and lays much of the blame on the aircraft’s ambitious development programme, and partly on the late changes made to some systems.

No plane is without its issues to start with, whether they be big or small. These weren't hastily developed, but they weren't faultlessly designed either (in terms of intial operations). Seems like the biggest gripe was getting the planes serviced by Airbus.

Quoting PM (Reply 15):
A point that is made in the article is that both Virgin and Lufthansa have gone on to re-order the A346 so they're obviously not dissatisfied with it.

Very true PM. The article wasn't there to say that the airlines were dissatisfied, merely to suggest what the issues were and I am guessing how they were overcome?

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 16):
What fascinated me is that the PERFORMANCE issues for A345/6 were ALL based around dispatch rates, reliability, and systems immaturity, and not fuel burn/economy/payload.

Not usual but I guess performance from an airline ops perspective.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 18):
What is really true is that the sales of the 346 and the 345 are not as good as expected, specially for the 345.
I think that the 345 will end up being a kind of Airbus extravaganzza. The longest range aircraft in the world !! So, what ?? ( Until the 777LR came, of course with more range, 2 engines, lower seat -mile cost, and the excellent background of the first family of 777 )

I think this statement is out of place a little. For example, the article has barely any mention of sales from what I hear. I mean fair enough, they haven't sold like hotcakes (and if someone can explain the whole hotcake thing it would be good) but thats not the point. As many will tell you the 772LR and the A345 are niche aircraft and neither is likely to sell anymore than 100 combined, and that is a best case scenario. The 772LR may prove to sell a lot better but its still not for everyone to go and buy.

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 20):
However, I wonder about JAL and ANA. They've been flying there 773ERs for awhile now and I wonder how they are doing.

Yeah, I personally wonder if either airline have taken them outside 3000nm miles yet... they really need the ER version when they're operating NRT-SIN!

Quoting Udo (Reply 22):
How do you know who expected what?

Yeah, wouldn't mind a source for that comment either. And the discussion was going pretty well to that point!



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
25 Jwenting : Correct. That's what I read here as well and that's what the OP meant to say and was misunderstood (possibly purposely) by some people (both Airbus l
26 Udo : Common sense based on which sources? I have never seen Airbus saying "we want to sell 200 units of X and 300 units of Y" about the A345/346. A346 sal
27 PlaneSmart : Performance guarantees for long range aircraft in terms of payload / range, fuel consumption, etc are usually more detailed and more onerous than for
28 QFA001 : I want to use Montey's words a little out-of-context here to raise a point: Airbus guaranteed that despatch reliability of the A340-500/600 would be
29 PlaneSmart : QFA001 'One particular airline has a rate in the low 90s. Another is said to be receiving penalty payments for higher-than-guarantee fuel burn.' Pleas
30 Monteycarlos : Fair comment. No disagreement here! LOL. Who? I think AC didn't really have much to go by when ordering only 2 of these, simply too many costs to spr
31 QFA001 : If I was going to express the airlines involved, I would have done so originally. The cost isn't spread over two frames for AC. First, AC has a sizea
32 PlaneSmart : The terms performance guarantees and penalties are used as if these are generic, with the same guarantees and penalties applying for an aircraft model
33 QFA001 : I don't need a lesson on contracts. I specified my belief that an airline is receiving missed fuel-burn penalty payments. I never said that all the a
34 Post contains images Udo : The big mystery once more again... AC ordered a large package of B787 and B777 to replace all their B767, A330, A343 and A345. In that whole fleet si
35 Avek00 : At least this article should help to scuttle the starry-eyed notions of Airbus fleet commonality that so many a.netters cling to.
36 Monteycarlos : I didn't mean the costs of the aircraft... I meant the integration costs of installing this aircraft into the fleet. It is a fixed cost, so the more
37 Udo : Just because one airline does not benefit from commonality it's not a general rule. Other airlines have many times expressed the contrary. Regards Ud
38 PlaneSmart : QFA001 'I specified my belief that an airline is receiving missed fuel-burn penalty payments.' 'One particular airline has a rate in the low 90s.' Sur
39 QFA001 : Give it a rest, Udo. As I've said to you before, your source is me. If you can't handle that, then you can go piss your cynicism in a cup. I also don
40 Monteycarlos : You don't need one or you don't want one?
41 Post contains images QFA001 : I know what you meant. As I said, AC had a fleet of older A330/340s that the -500s were delivered to operate alongside. Therefore, the cost of integr
42 Post contains images Udo : Permanent repetition makes it no better to claim things without the slightest proof... Hmmmm, regarding that rather emotional reaction, I somehow get
43 Sebolino : And we are supposed to believe you just because it's you ?
44 NAV20 : Thanks to those who put the info. from the article on. Reading it all through, what struck me was that the commonest complaint seemed to be problems w
45 Toulouse : Think you may have destroyed any of your credibility with those comments... Sad.
46 Toulouse : I also know of one airline that has been having a lot of problems with their 340's, and many might be quick to blame the manufacturer, but that's not
47 Post contains images QFA001 : Not surprisingly, you ended up with the wrong conclusion. The conclusion that you should have arrived at is that I think you are a tosser. And what's
48 Avek00 : This almost certainly has to be Air Canada - the airline's A345 fleet has been continually plauged with assorted technical problems, causing an opera
49 Airbazar : And that's where the real money is made so it more than makes up for the dispatch problems which will likely go away as the aircraft matures.
50 Leskova : Well... you handled that confrontation beautifully... NOT. First you claim to know that an airline has dispatch rates in the low 90s, then it changes
51 Post contains images Udo : Hmmmm, and another rather helpless emotional verbal reaction which simply shows me (and others) you have a personal problem with people not believing
52 Sebolino : OK, What precisely is dispatch reliability ? In which unit is it measured ? Percentages of what ? Thanx for the infos.
53 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Even though I had the misfortune of having a six hour wait until EK fixed their A345 (they even gave a letter to all pax apologising about the problem
54 Gearup : They ordered Boeing because they got a better deal from them. Talk about interpreting data to suit preconceived ideas. There is nothing unusual about
55 Post contains images QFA001 : I indicated that I know it to be true. Then, at the insistance of PlaneSmart, I added the word believe because he pointed out that without a source I
56 Post contains images Udo : Unfortunately, I don't have a dog - so I have no choice but giving it to people who apparently really need psychologic advice... Regards Udo
57 QFA001 : You missed the point. Airbus/R-R guaranteed 98.5% at 12 months and 99% after that. So, they promised the mature product that you're making a comment
58 Theredbaron : Hey...QFA001 can you add me to the monument you are building? A gargoile would be swell!!!! As google boy said in the 380 thread, some posts should b
59 Finkenwerder : I'm contemplating commenting on this topic having just stepped out of the fuselage of an A340-600 destined for Virgin. However I haven't read my copy
60 PM : Although I started this thread, I've been keeping my head below the parapet for the past few hours. (Actually, I've just been doing the job I'm paid
61 Post contains images Udo : ...hmmm, some people show odd reactions to "funny things"... Regards Udo
62 PyroGX41487 : Sheizer.... Would you give it a rest, QF? He's been perfectly respectful of you...
63 PM : Much of the discussion over the past ferw hours has been about the reliability (or otherwise) of the RR Trent 500. Here's what RR have to say in the a
64 Mrniji : So, to summarize: No source at all.. or was the big almighty your source?? Some big fish here are always willing to learn.. as Sokrates said, live is
65 QFA001 : Truly, no insult intended (here). If I have a 'soft spot' for you it is your repetoire of subtle insults. I just didn't think the last one was up to
66 Mrocktor : So, in summary: - Airbus/RR have not met some of their contract guarantees - dispatch reliability specifically - and have/are paying compensation to c
67 PM : OK, I don't have a technical background so I may have missed something. QFA001 says this rate is "not so good" but RR say it's better than either the
68 OldAeroGuy : Both Air France and JAL stated in Air Transport World that 773ER fuel burn performance was 1% better than the airplane performance manuals and Boeing
69 Post contains images QFA001 : Ugh. It's 2:20AM here. Do you really want to go through it again? I presented what I presented. I cannot provide you with the airline or the source.
70 BeechNut : I'm not surprised that AC didn't comment. At the time of the survey they were no doubt in the middle of their widebody selection process. To publicly
71 Post contains images Udo : Not even my dispatch reliability reaches 100%... Well, unbelievable but true, it seems we finally have found some common ground... Regards Udo
72 PM : I do. The first A330 I ever saw was a CX machine over Japan. (I ducked!) But that was just CX, wasn't it and it didn't last long. (The issue was the
73 Sebring : Air Canada's decision goes well beyond issues with specific aircraft types. They didn't like their Boeing 747-400 combis, but that didn't stop them f
74 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Such anger... such turmoil... all this over lousy A340s, and I haven't even chimed in yet........... ......I'm so proud of you kiddies *tears* JAL was
75 Post contains links Jacobin777 : I found an old article regarding the A345..I don't know if Airbus has been able to get the weight problem down, or they had to pay weight penalties...
76 Lemurs : I understand your point, but I'm not sure I agree with it. Commenting publicly about their own experience with airframes they operate would reflect a
77 Post contains images Udo : And some of these great carriers had the chance to switch to B777s later, even evaluated it seriously but dropped the idea and placed repeat orders f
78 Post contains images Mrniji : Well, Diplomacy does work.. good boys, both of you
79 ConcordeBoy : ...Sir Dick only borrowed the slogan after Airbus introduced it themselves.
80 Trex8 : was "Mine is longer than yours" a Branson or Airbus invention???
81 ConcordeBoy : Branson. Airbus just had something along the lines of "bigger, faster, longer ranged" written across the A346 in both drawings and the actual model.
82 Lightsaber : Interesting... Does anyone know more details? (e.g., overcooled case exhaust, poor placement/choice of the optical sensor?) Maybe this is a question
83 Post contains links and images SAS_A330-300 : View Large View MediumPhoto © Philippe noret If look close enough you can see text actually says "Mine's bigger than yours". I find this text ve
84 Persotvik : Every new aircraft type will have some "problems" and dispatch reliability "cases" in the beginning of their career. Look at the MD11 and not to forge
85 NA : From inside LH I also heard only good things about the A340-600, except that some pilots complain about ground manouvrability due to its length. Quoti
86 SQ773 : You are absolutely right, NA. In LH only good things are to be heard, except from the flight attendants. Having the galley and the lavatories downsta
87 Post contains images CRJ900 : I thought FAs would love the opportunity to work in peace and quiet away from those dreaded pax, being able to hide away downstairs...? I have lost c
88 Post contains links and images SQ773 : Nice point... View Large View MediumPhoto © Baires Aviation Photography The problem I mentioned lies on the following : In the photo it is not s
89 Post contains images N60659 : SQ773, thanks for the clarification in Reply 88. Based on: I was drawing a completely different inference. -N60659
90 AirxLiban : Well, I can chime in a bit regarding SAA. I spoke to a someone from SAA, pilot and technical specialist in their Aviation Safety department about SAA
91 Post contains images SWISSER : (curiousity)When will the first 777LR fly actually? (high knowledge statement)I don't doubt any performance issues but it remains an ETOPS, It has di
92 DLKAPA : ETOPS aside the 777 still won't be able to fly LHR - SYD nonstop.
93 SWISSER : (educational request)What is the range of the new 777LR?
94 N60659 : The first flight was almost two months ago (March 8). -N60659
95 OldAeroGuy : 9420 NM with three optional body tanks installed. Passenger oxygen availability is more important than number of engines for scheduling flights over
96 Post contains links DfwRevolution : Actually... the LHR-SYD side is very much possible. It's the return flight, SYD-LHR, that will splash down in the Med. because of prevailing winds. B
97 Trex8 : so are you saying twins have less O2 on board??? I thought the Himalayas problem was that a twin with one engine out will need to reduce altitude to
98 BeechNut : That was exactly what I had said. If Air Canada publicized any negative comments about the A340-500, it would have skewed the negotiating process by
99 DLKAPA : Yes, winds are a pain. Anybody fancy a stop in HKG?
100 Gigneil : No, it hasn't. N
101 DfwRevolution : My bad King of Semantics... it's demonstrated the testing necessary for ETOPS 330 certification.
102 Trex8 : sl OT but what do the pundits think about putting a GenX engine on the A345/6 (assuming they develop one of the right thrust for the 747Adv which shou
103 AvFan4ever : Minor clarification: the 787/A350 powerplant now under development by GE is called the GEnx. Even if a business case could be made that demonstrated
104 MD-90 : Yaw damper? Or fuselage flexing, perhaps?
105 Gigneil : Yes that's true my young subject, but there is absolutely no evidence that the FAA or any other certifying agency is willing to grant such a certific
106 Jacobin777 : even though the 777 rules the skies, the fact VS, and other air carriers have A346's on order does say something about the A340's.......whatever Bran
107 Newark777 : You guys, ignore the douche, it's not even worth it. Harry
108 Post contains images QFA001 : That's more like it! At first, I thought that Boeing doing a smaller GEnx/T1000 fan for the 747Adv (now GEnx, of course) may also provide Airbus with
109 Gigneil : Potentially they could wrap this design effort into the design of the A350 wing. The A340-500/600 wing differs from the A330's only by a root plug an
110 QFA001 : OTOH, the A350 wing will have substantially different materials to the A340-500/600 wing. So, it would be a subtantial cost for Airbus to upgrade the
111 Atmx2000 : Somehow I don't think airlines and aircraft manufacturers would like the idea of GE having a monopoly on engines for the 350-450 seat market.
112 PM : For the record, let's not forget that GE had exactly that exclusivity a decade or so ago. When Airbus were thinking of what later became the A345/A34
113 Mark777300 : Hey, was I the only one who read the following and said "what the?" potential problem ... early in the A340-600 flight-test programme ... flexing of t
114 AvFan4ever : Those are good points to make for this type of discussion. However, all parties can agree that the A345/6 is somewhat of a niche aircraft (like the 7
115 PM : Careful. The 345 may be a niche aircraft (as is the 772LR) but I'm sure Airbus hope to sell large fleets of A346s. (For example, it's on its way to b
116 Lightsaber : I thought RR has an exclusive until 2008. At least that's why I recall pratt canceling the pw8057 that I was working on that week: They were a bit sh
117 PM : The one about needing to sell 500? Thanks for the clarification. I always thought that seemed quite ridiculous! The feeling is mutual. And you have f
118 QFA001 : I double checked and I have it as 2006. Anyhow, whatever. Soon the sole supplier contract ends, right? May I ask, in your opinion was the PW8160 a "k
119 OldAeroGuy : No, I'm saying minutes of passenger O2 on board a Twin or a Quad is a limiting factor for flying over high terrain. The probability of an engine fail
120 Dhefty : I think it's clear that the B777-300ER is pulling away from the A340-600, based on virtually all the major recent campaigns (Singapore Airlines, Paki
121 N60659 : One small point of contention. By including GECAS, you are basically counting the same airframes more than once. From the current order book, GECAS w
122 Dynkrisolo : AFAIK, all GECAS orders will go to EK.
123 Jacobin777 : i agree too..aside from the fact PK oredered the -200 series...i.e. 200ER/LR..there aren't any 300's on the books from PK (as far as I know)..
124 N60659 : Historically (and by that, I mean the last 6-7 years), EK has always split their orders between Boeing and Airbus and operate aircraft of competing d
125 OldAeroGuy : It might be if they don't re-order the A345.
126 N60659 : You are correct, I stand corrected. GECAS will provide EK with total of 14 773ER airframes. ILFC will provide 12 to EK and EK will purchase the remai
127 PANAM_DC10 : Not quite, they have 14 773ER on order though.. That is correct. GECAS have 14 773ER on order, all to be placed with EK and ILFC the other 12 for EK.
128 N60659 : Oh, is the "Unidentified Customer" with an order date of 29 Jun, 2004 actually ILFC? -N60659 [Edit: PANAM_DC10, my apologies to you. I guess you answ
129 Post contains images Dynkrisolo : Then you didn't know far enough. They have ordered 3 772ers, 2 772lrs, and 3 773ers.
130 AC777233LR : Why? They didn't demand one for the 787.
131 Jacobin777 : we agree on the 200's...but is there any links you have to show they have ordered the 300? I would love to see PK with a 300!!!
132 AC777233LR : For what it's worth the entire Concorde fuselage flexed quite substanially.
133 PM : I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the argument that the 773ER seems to be pulling ahead of the 346 but I'm not sure your examples entirely add up.
134 Post contains images N60659 : I'm going to take a stab at that (and open myself up to be stabbed in the process ). The purchase cost of the A346 is significantly lower than the 77
135 AvFan4ever : Because the potential market for MOM 787-category aircraft has been characterized as significantly larger than that of the A345/6. I believe that ind
136 PM : Whether they were serious or not I don't know but Boeing were suggesting for a while that they needed to choose between two engine suppliers or just
137 AirxLiban : Actually I'm not exactly sure...I did not ask him to elaborate at the time.
138 Eha : AirxLiban, 1/ -> must be fuselage flexing. 2/ As you mention also in a previous post, Dakar airport is a problem for this A/C, therefore they use A343
139 Dhefty : You are correct about EK. Thirty exactly. I suppose I'll also have to agree with the deletion of EVA as a major, since they will have only 42 long-ha
140 Post contains links and images Dynkrisolo : How about straight from the horse's mouth: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2002/q4/nr_021114g.html
141 Post contains images PM : ... which is three, and the same list "only" includes three for the 773ER (AF, JAL and SIA). (If you include EK then you also have to add them to the
142 N60659 : To be fair to Dhefty, he lists CP (90). Was that really AC instead of CP? -N60659
143 PM : I assumed he meant Cathay (CX).
144 Post contains images N60659 : Well,CX's fleet size is a lot closer to 90 than AC's (170+). Sorry. -N60659
145 Dhefty : Thank you. My list of majors should include ANA (116), Air Canada (76), Northwest (79) and Thai (66). Sorry about the wrong designation of CP. It sho
146 PM : A agree. SAA may not meet a criterion of 50 long-haul planes but they have been a serious long-haul airline for many years. Virgin have been nothing
147 Udo : Who really cares about who is a "major" by a certain definition? An order is an order, an operator is an operator. And small operator must be just as
148 PM : More so!
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