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Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection  
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7595 posts, RR: 27
Posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6501 times:

Mesa, under Freedom Air will fly up to 30 CRJ-200's for Delta Connection.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050504/clw022.html?.v=10

And the musical chairs game of regional airlines continues. Its almost now a certain that Mesa is out over at USAirways with Republic & Air Wisconsin providing financial backing.

I'm confused at how this Mesa deal somehow resolves the issues with the FRJ's formerly operated by ACA and who is paying the leases or getting them out of Delta's hands.

And then what does this mean for Comair & ASA.....probably pressure for concessionary contracts.

This industry is amazing, and this rumor slipped under the radar until yesterday.

62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJdaniel001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6462 times:

I imagine Mesa has dropped their rates to guarantee revenue from someone to replace US Airways. But, DL surprises me. DL has always had high standards. I guess everything goes when you are bleeding money.

User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4391 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6454 times:

Quoting Jdaniel001 (Reply 1):
But, DL surprises me. DL has always had high standards.

ASA (particularly the ATL operation) does not fit the definition of "high standards" in any way, shape, or form.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineBNAflyer78 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6436 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Thread starter):
Its almost now a certain that Mesa is out over at USAirways with Republic & Air Wisconsin providing financial backing.

What's the status on US and Air Wisconsin and is Mesa definitely out as a future US Express carrier?



Long live the Widget!
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6415 times:

And I was always proud of Delta for keeping things simple, with never more than 4 Connection carriers (Skywest, ASA and Comair as constant carriers, with the fourth being (in order) Business Express, Trans States, ACA), and now, they will have 6 (ASA, Comair, Skywest, Chautauqua, Mesa dba Freedom Air and American Eagle (LAX only), 7 if you count Chautauqua and Republic as different airlines.
It will also be interesting to see where Mesa will base their aircraft for Delta.
One thing I'm wondering about: I thought Freedom Air was a CR7/CR9-only operator, because they were cheaper than Mesa would be, and now they use CR2s? Somehow I don't understand that.


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3941 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6376 times:

Because Mesa is a bottom feeding airline that prostitutes themselves to the mailine carriers, they operate at costs below that of other "regional" airlines. That being said, it becomes economical for Delta to allocate a CRJ operated by Mesa on routes previously flown by the Dornier 328. If Comair, ASA or Chautauqua operated 50 seat planes on route previously operated by 34 seat planes it wouldn't make financial sense. But with Mesa being the cheap harlots they are, led by the evil Lorenzo-esque Orenstein these routes will be economical operated by a larger capasity airline.

IMO these planes will be based in CVG and or BOS. Reason being is that's where the 328s were based flying short hops to thin markets that were perfect for a 34 seat jet.

THis is bad news for the folks at Comair and especially ASA. It just goes to show the vulnerability of a wholly owned carrier in this messed up industry. The worst part is that ASA is in pilot negotiations and references to Mesa, if not already done so, WILL be made. "If Mesa flies the CRJ for this much... why can't you?"

Good luck to all at DCI... and Delta.


AZJ


User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6301 times:

Im wondering what the implications will be at Comair and ASA as well. This has got to be a slap in the face to them. Why buy them in the first place? Specifically at Comair, just about all the employees gave concessions to allow the company to take more aircraft..yet more flying has been awarded to someone else...again...and MESA at that! Comair/ALPA has got to be pretty hot about this. Finally, what the hell does Delta need with 380 crj's? Is that not overkill? Will they have mainline jets flying anywhere? Just my two cents!


"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6280 times:

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 6):
Finally, what the hell does Delta need with 380 crj's? Is that not overkill?

Well, something has to replace their 48 732s, 26 733s and 15 762s.

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 6):
Will they have mainline jets flying anywhere?

Only to Florida  Wink .


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12113 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6241 times:
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Quoting Jdaniel001 (Reply 1):
But, DL surprises me. DL has always had high standards. I guess everything goes when you are bleeding money.

I think this is one of the main thinks that is plaguing the major airlines right now. The farming out of all these flights being operated by another party of your behalf. You have no idea of the quality being offered or lack of it being offered all in your name.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6771 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6232 times:

I agree.. look at AA and CO... they own (or CO still has a large stake in ExpressJet) and they are doing well with their regionals. Even US own over half of their regionals.. Who knows what this will bring about, but it will be nice to see as time progresses..


Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6216 times:

DL is my preferred airline. I usually only fly them, I work for them (but not employed by them). I wish them the best, but I don't think they are moving in the right direction and I think management is largely to blame.


"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineGroundStop From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 611 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6157 times:

Delta never ceases to amaze me. Here they've said over and over that they want to get back to good customer service, yet they've now brought the absolute worst regional airline into their operation. I have some good friends over at ASA. Good luck to them.

JP


User currently offlineFlyboyaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6058 times:

What I'm wondering about is the Freedom Airlines thing. They shut them down last year supposedly. I figured they would bring it back for some reason. The mainline Mesa employees hated that division...can't bode well.

User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6771 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6041 times:

Are these 30 CRJ being pulled from somewhere or are they new orders?


Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineAv8rPHX From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 713 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5989 times:

What I'm wondering about is the Freedom Airlines thing. They shut them down last year supposedly. I figured they would bring it back for some reason. The mainline Mesa employees hated that division...can't bode well.

All of the CRJ-900s were removed from the Freedom certificate late last year, however, JO has now put a single Beech on the F8 cert. It has been running PHXHIIIGM runs for the last few months. Freedom is now part of M.A.G but the stigma from the whole previous F8 fiasco still is there....


User currently offlineMurf From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5983 times:

Are you guys sure this is the end of Mesa at Us Airways? I'm reading that they are going to be flying CRJ's for Delta, but I thought that they flew ERJ's for US Airways. Could this be new aircraft and new growth?

Murf


User currently offlineAv8rPHX From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 713 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5966 times:

We have both the CRJ and ERJ in the USX system currently.

User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6771 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5926 times:

What about what's up with Comair? Are they still getting the E70 and putting them in service by 3rd Qtr this year? Is Mesa just taking over for Skywest? From what I thought, Comair and ASA had taken over the ACA routes.. does this mean Mesa will be replacing Comair and ASA on those routes also?


Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25515 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5818 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
Are these 30 CRJ being pulled from somewhere or are they new orders?

Now that is the interesting point about this deal. The deal mentions "up to 30" CRJ200s.


According to Mesa's lates 10Q/8K reports, it operates only 56, 50 seat CRJ100/200 aircraft, with zero additional aircraft on order.

All of these aircraft are under long term commitments to United(15), US Airways(23) and America West(18). Only the America West agreement currently allows the draw down if aircraft however not until 2007.

So unless Mesa is going to go out and acquire a large block of used aircraft (could be ex FLYi birds), these aircraft must be coming from a current operator.

Now how this plays into into the rumored US+HP tie up and any interest Mesa might have in the marriage??

It seems to me Mesa might be shying away, or atleast hedging its bets from a HP+US deal by diversifying its flying by placing aircraft with Delta.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4281 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5804 times:

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't USAirways have the right to terminate their agreement with Mesa since the relationship was established prior to bankruptcy in the same way that United terminated theirs with Air Wisconsin. I would not be surprised to see the 23 CRJs with USAirways move over to Delta to help make room for some of Air Wisconsins planes. Air Wisconsin now sits on the board of USAirways and I think this is something they would want to do.

User currently offlineEjmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5779 times:

Delta is the queen of the regional jet, and its one of the reasons why they are bleeding so much money. I can't imagine them picking up more CRJ flying...its crazy......


"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6778 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5735 times:

I think people are reading too much into the fact that the CR2's would be flown at Freedom Air. My best guess is that this is being done to avoid DALPA scope clause violations since Mesa currently operates CR9's for America West. Since Freedom is technically a separate airline, there's no issue with a Delta Connection carrier operating jets with more than 70 seats, even in another airline's colors. Freedom was originally set up by Mesa to bust the pilots' union, but at this point the goal is to avoid violating Delta's scope clause.

My guess on the motivation behind this deal: Delta wants to make it tougher on US Airways to reorganize, and giving Mesa a place to fly some of its jets means that US management loses a bargaining chip in trying to force Mesa to invest in the reorganization and/or lower contract flying rates. I suspect that if Jon Ornstein were really bullish on US Airways' prospects, he would have put up the $100 million they claimed to need and/or agreed to buy PSA and its CR2/CR7 fleet. To me, this deal has the feel of the rats abandoning a sinking ship.


User currently offlineFlyXJT From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 129 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5725 times:

Looks like Skyway is screwed then, they were staffing themselves in preparation to takeover the DoJets for DL.

User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4107 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5700 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 18):
All of these aircraft are under long term commitments to United(15), US Airways(23) and America West(18). Only the America West agreement currently allows the draw down if aircraft however not until 2007.

I was under the impression that the CR2s for UA were just temporary until more CR7s arrived. Is this the case?


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5682 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 7):
Well, something has to replace their 48 732s, 26 733s and 15 762s.

Those aircraft are being retired over 4 years. DL will receive 48 737-800s between 2006-2007 if I remember correctly, so capacity shouldn't decrease. They're also increasing aircraft utilization which I'm sure you already knew.

Jeremy


25 Post contains images DAL767400ER : With the way things are going, that might happen faster . 36 in one year alone (not sure whether 2006 or 2007; dang it, I always forget their deliver
26 Post contains images FriendlySkies : If DL continues to lose $5.6 bn a year, I highly doubt we will see any 737s being delivered.
27 Ouboy79 : Or how about the other side...this opens US Airways up to reject the Mesa agreement finally and make room for AWAC? Either way Mesa will still be inv
28 DLKAPA : Any chances for New routes, maybe DRO in the future? What of DH2's, does the contract include options for a few of those as well?
29 ScottB : US Airways already had the option of rejecting the Mesa agreement by virtue of the fact that it is in bankruptcy reorganization. They can cancel most
30 TinPusher007 : While I agree that 380 CRJ's in the DL Conx system is quite rediculous...so is your above statement. Fuel is probably the biggest reason, with poor m
31 Ejmmsu : notice in my statement I said ".......its ONE of the reasons..." I never said it was the only reason. Also, fuel, poor management, and RJ's go hand i
32 Piedmontbrat : All I can say is: "Warning, Will Robinson, Warning!" Mesa getting involved with Delta spells disaster. Mesa has been a horrible regional carrier for U
33 TinPusher007 : Points taken. All things considered, I think we agree that more RJ's for DL is not a good thing for pax or for their balance sheet...especially if th
34 DAL767400ER : While it definitely isn't good for pax, it should be good for DL's balance sheet, simply because the employees (especially the pilots) at Freedom Air
35 DLKAPA : So then will the "reincarnated" F8 be based out of SLC?
36 TinPusher007 : I know pilots at both ASA and Comair...and I most certainly don't wish that on them. Moreover, I think DL will have an exceptioanlly difficult time g
37 Ejmmsu : What would have been really good for delta would to have limited their RJ presence at about 200 frames and picked up the slack by ordering 50-100 717
38 DAL767400ER : Seeing as how the article mentions the CR2s as a replacement for the 328Jets (which makes no sense, as thos have been gone for over 6 months now), th
39 DLKAPA : Ahh. New territory for Mesa hubwise then?
40 DAL767400ER : That would indeed have been nice, a true successor to the DC-9-30, operated on the same routes. But as we all know, it didn't happen, and it will nev
41 TinPusher007 : DL dragged its feet about a 100 seat a/c. I think the 717 would've probably been their best bet as the 736 is simply to heavy!
42 DLKAPA : 717 would have also complemented the MD-90's well.
43 DAL767400ER : Not to forget that prior to 9-11, DL was also close to ordering 45 73Gs, to replace the 54 732s flying for Delta Express. Needless to say, that order
44 DLKAPA : What exactly was delta express?
45 DLPMMM : Source: DL's Annual Statement's footnotes (where all the skeletons are hidden) DL will receive 32 to 44 CRJ-200s during 2005. I assume these are what
46 DLKAPA : Article sounds interesting... do you have a link?
47 TinPusher007 : Song's predecessor. DLX used to op from MCO, TPA, FLL, BOS, JFK, EWR, etc will 732's.
48 DLKAPA : Ahh cool thanks. *filler*
49 DAL767400ER : No, this is actually the order DCI placed last year. 25 CRJs will go to ASA, and 7 to Skywest. The 30 Mesa CRJs will be added on top of that.
50 Piedmontbrat : Hope Mesa doesn't do to Delta what they've done to US Airways. As a US Airways Express carrier, Mesa's service level leaves a lot to be desired. They'
51 DLKAPA : It was Freedom Air, so it was definetly the wrong choice.
52 RDUDDJI : I read somewhere that DL is the only U.S. carrier that operates more regional jets than mainline jets. Does anyone have the exact numbers? I found tha
53 DLKAPA : Actually I read on a.net that in a few years AEagle will be larger than AA. But yeah DL does seem to have alot of RJ's flying around...
54 DeltaMIA : 10 of these are now going to OH to fly Florida routes (not yet announced).
55 SkyexRamper : Guess all I can say is...HA HA HA...HAHAHAHHAHA...take that Jim and Tim HAHHA. Looks like there will be about 100 or so furloughs coming real soon. Al
56 DAL767400ER : Not really. As of December 31s, 2004, DL had 541 mainline jets, compared to 17 owned props and 287 RJs. And even with the RJ operated by associates,
57 FlyPNS1 : One minor correction, the 7 CRJ's set to go to SkyWest will now go to ASA. SkyWest will not be receiving any more jets for Delta Connection. Actually
58 DAL767400ER : Why's that? Not enough confidence in Skywest, or are they getting too expensive? The reasons I can think of for that are: RJ's are cheaper to get tha
59 Apodino : Hopefully Air Wisconsin will clean up the mess there and Mesa will be out of the US system. I am looking forward to joining the USAirways family. Doe
60 DeltaMIA : While CASM's may be high, for the most part, on routes that these aircraft will the market will pay for itself. You will see incentive based routes w
61 DAL767400ER : I don't know how long the agreement between DL and Skywest will last, but what I know is that it has been lasting since DL merged with Western and qu
62 Apodino : Somebody forgot to tell this to Glenn Tilton at UA when they decided to replace 70 CRJ's and 14 146's that ZW flies for them.
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