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Mechanics At 7 U.S. Airlines To Support UA Strike  
User currently offlineAirportplan From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 469 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5865 times:

CHICAGO, May 5 (Reuters) - The union representing mechanics at bankrupt United Airlines on Thursday said mechanics at seven other U.S. airlines have vowed to support their colleagues at United, "up to and including the right to strike."
The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association said this week that United's mechanics were planning a strike in defense of their pension plans, which the carrier hopes to shift to government pension insurers. United, the No. 2 U.S. carrier, is a unit of UAL Corp. (UALAQ.OB: Quote, Profile, Research)

Thursday's AMFA announcement beefs up that threat, saying mechanics at Alaska Airlines, ATA Airlines (ATAHQ.PK: Quote, Profile, Research) , Horizon Airlines, Independence Airlines, Mesaba Airlines, Northwest Airlines (NWAC.O: Quote, Profile, Research) and Southwest Airlines (LUV.N: Quote, Profile, Research) would strike in sympathy with United's mechanics if a bankruptcy judge approves the pension shift.

"I am authorized to call for an immediate nationwide strike against United if modifications are made to our contract without the approval of the membership and have called strikes three times before on behalf of AMFA's members," AMFA National Director O.V. Delle-Femine said in a statement.

The airline, which has been in bankruptcy since December 2002, has said a strike under the circumstances would violate the Railway Labor Act and bankruptcy law.

"We have had to make difficult choices, but those actions have brought us to the point where the goal line for an exit from Chapter 11 is close," said UAL spokeswoman Jean Medina.

"We take negotiations seriously, and believe energies are better focused on reaching consensual agreements."

The AMFA's recent strike threat comes in response to news that United and the Pension Benefits Guaranty Corp last month reached a settlement, clearing the way for the carrier to shed its four employee retirement plans.

The pension agency has said the difference between promised benefits and assets in the four United plans is $9.8 billion. The government will guarantee retirement benefits totaling $6.6 billion. A bankruptcy judge was expected to rule on the settlement on May 10.

United, battered along with the rest of the industry by soaring fuel costs and weak revenues, has said it needs to cut labor costs to emerge from Chapter 11 protection.

Voiding and replacing its pension plans would give United an average savings of $645 million a year for five years. United has said it remains open to suggestions that would keep the pension intact and still grant the airline the savings it needs.

Some union leaders have said they have offered workable alternatives that the airline has rejected.

United also faces a threat of intermittent strikes by its flight attendants if the carrier dumps the pensions on the PBGC.

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5832 times:

Quoting Airportplan (Thread starter):
The government will guarantee retirement benefits totaling $6.6 billion.

Typical. UA screws up royally and then expects the tax payer to foot the bills. Forget that! All these conservative Republicans in power are complaining about personal bankruptcy but then they have no problems whatsoever with corporate welfare on a massive scale. They're willing to kiss over $6 billion of our tax dollars goodbye at the drop of a hat. What kind of self-respecting conservative supports that?



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24880 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5808 times:

Well this is pretty good news for UA then.

Almost certainly guarantees the government would step in a block any potential strike as sympathy strikes would threaten the industry and transportation system.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offline762er From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 542 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5788 times:

I think the sympathy strikes are all talk. If UA mechanics struck I think all the other guys would be like, well, we support you but we don't want to screw our own goose that lays the golden egg.

User currently offlineRsmith6621a From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 194 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5776 times:

I cant wait for next week........the tempture is just starting to rise.....Employees Have Had enough this kind of action in this country is 20 years overdue.....

Unions supporting Unions????????......WOW that is how it was in the old days and everybody did well......employee and employer.....

If TILTON wants to diffuse this he should put his 4.6 million into the same pot he wants to put those who built the airline.



Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5710 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 1):
Typical. UA screws up royally and then expects the tax payer to foot the bills. Forget that! All these conservative Republicans in power are complaining about personal bankruptcy but then they have no problems whatsoever with corporate welfare on a massive scale. They're willing to kiss over $6 billion of our tax dollars goodbye at the drop of a hat. What kind of self-respecting conservative supports that?

The $6 billion is for Susan Stewardess who retired in 1995 and for Mike Mechanic who is in a nursing home now.

Rsmith6621a - How Do You determine which Words to capitalize? it seems As If you just randomly hit the shift key. Also, There is no Need to use seven periods, three periods express your viewpoints Just fine.................And use those Sparingly.

AAndrew


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17361 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5683 times:

Sweet! Bring it on! Let's knock out UA, DH, and TZ and move on with life for God's sake!


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11452 posts, RR: 61
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5669 times:

I don't see this stike happening because I think once side or the other will back down first. But, this would be an absolute goldmine for AA, DL, CO, and US. They would be the big winners in this scenario.

User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5636 times:

Now, if all mechanics did actually strike, what would happen?

UA and US would be gone. DL probably would be too...

I still don't think the strike will go through, despite the union grumbling, most UA employees still want a job.


User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2086 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5617 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 8):
UA and US would be gone. DL probably would be too

Why would DL be gone if UA mechanics strike??


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5606 times:

Woops...might help if I read the entire PR.  Wink

User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5592 times:

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 5):

The $6 billion is for Susan Stewardess who retired in 1995 and for Mike Mechanic who is in a nursing home now.

I'm not saying that they don't deserve their pensions; I'm saying that the hypocrisy our government is showing is absolutely ludicrous. If they're going to willingly screw over Consumer America, it's about time they started screwing over Corporate America. Don't let UA off the hook. Force them to pay what they owe and actually stand by the supposed values that our government can't shut up about. Our current government is only interested in helping those who don't need any help. That's not the kind of country I want.



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineCXA340 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 51 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5574 times:

1. This should only have to be posted once so that everyone can finally understand it. THE PBGC IS NOT FUNDED BY TAX DOLLARS!!! The PBGC is a self-insuring agency, this means that for years United, as has every other company that offers a pension, been paying premiums so that every pensioner in the country is insured to a guaranteed benefit of $3,800 a month. If the PBGC decides to take over United's pension, which it has the legal right to do with or without United's approval, it will cost the American taxpayer exactly $0.00 Again, for the benefit of some who seem incapable of grasping this fact: THE PBGC IS NOT TAXPAYER FUNDED - IT USES NONE OF YOUR TAX DOLLARS TO EXIST - ONLY BIG BAD EVIL CORPORATE PROFITS WHICH PAY ITS PREMIUMS. One would wonder if these same unionized employees would realize they receive a right granted to them by the federal government that most workers do not while their unions lobby to deny that right to other Americans - a guaranteed retirement benefit above and beyond SS - last time I checked my IRA had no government guarantees on it.

2. The PBGC makes the final decision of whether or not to assume the liability of a pension - if the PBGC so wishes, it may assume any or all of United's pensions without any consent from an employee union. For those who love to decry United for acting in bad faith with their union contracts - realize that same contract, as well as federal law, spell out the right and responsibility of the PBGC to assume the liability of any pension it deems at risk. If you value your union contract so much, then let the PBGC fulfill its legal right and obligation in assuming those pensions - this was agreed to in your contract.

3. A strike against a bankrupt company is illegal - it is in open violation of the National Railway Act and current bankruptcy law. Remember that any contract with a company is null-in-void upon entrance into bankruptcy protection, and any contract agreed upon with a company while under bankruptcy protection is tentative at best under the control of the secured creditors (there is no collective bargaining requirement for a company in bankruptcy). If the unions goes ahead with an illegal work action, they will be held liable for all damages incurred to the secured debtors, as well as any striking employee could be held in contempt.

4. United does not exist to employ workers - unionized or not. United exists in order to make money for the shareholders who own the company. As an employee, you legally and morally deserve a paycheck and nothing else. You forget the plight of the shareholders, unsecured, and secured creditors in this situation who are loosing the most. They are the ones who are legally entitled to something, not you.


User currently offlineORD From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5565 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 1):
Typical. UA screws up royally and then expects the tax payer to foot the bills.

See this quote from another thread. The taxpayers don't get screwed at all.

"PBGC is not funded by general tax revenues. PBGC collects insurance premiums from employers that sponsor insured pension plans, earns money from investments and receives funds from pension plans it takes over. PBGC pays monthly retirement benefits, up to a guaranteed maximum, to about 518,000 retirees in 3,479 pension plans that ended. Including those who have not yet retired and participants in multiemployer plans receiving financial assistance, PBGC is responsible for the current and future pensions of about 1,061,000 people."


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5549 times:

Some people insist that taxpayers foot the bill. No matter how many times it's explained, they don't get it.

BTW, didn't US cancel it's pensions? Why doesn't anyone complain about that? But as soon as you say UA and pension in the same general vicinity, all hell breaks loose.


User currently offlineMcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1448 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5535 times:

"Don't let UA off the hook. Force them to pay what they owe and actually stand by the supposed values that our government can't shut up about. Our current government is only interested in helping those who don't need any help. That's not the kind of country I want"

SATX,

I would appreciate if you would please review the PBGC website. While the PBGC is a goverment entity the funds for payments are NOT generated by TAXPAYER DOLLARS. Did you read that all right? Just want to make sure you get the message as it appears you are a headline reader and not an issue inquirer.

Next. The UAL pensions whether UAL liquidates or continues flying would be sent to the PBGC. If you follow the news you will see that DL has asked to have the pension funding level timeline increased to 30 years from the current requirements. Do you think DL is doing this because they have the cash lying around to pay the pensions or they are facing pension contribution problems?

Finally just a little history lesson on how the funding of pensions takes place. The company does not keep 100% percent of outstanding pension funding at any time (not required by law) the companies keep a portion of the funding and those funds are INVESTED in the MARKETS. Well what do you think has happened since 9/11 and the reign of King GeorgeII? The markets have collapsed and the airlines found themselves on the backside of the minimum funding levels as mandated by the govt. These funding levels were also adjusted higher by the aforementioned KGII. The boy who would be king. Anyway, the entire problem can be layed at the hands of the markets and the presidency. You did not hear of the funding problems in the past because the money was invested and the markets grew. Also the airlines were profitable and able to fund any shortcoming in a market dip. Now no one has extra cash they are all trying to compete on the level of the average LCC.

So now Mr. SAT. I ask if you believe that UAL should be held to pay a pension. Then I suppose that mandating a pension at the other carriers would be warranted? That all airlines should be forced to cough up enough cash to pay a pension would on be fair, correct?

I hope this has cleared up an issue that obviously was foreign to you.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17361 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5517 times:

" If they're going to willingly screw over Consumer America, it's about time they started screwing over Corporate America"

What makes you think those are two different entities?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 43
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5503 times:

>> So now Mr. SAT. I ask if you believe that UAL should be held to pay a pension. Then I suppose that mandating a pension at the other carriers would be warranted? That all airlines should be forced to cough up enough cash to pay a pension would on be fair, correct? <<

I've got an idea.

How about airlines be forced to pay out in pensions whatever they agreed to pay out in pensions during past contract negotiations?

I don't think anyone is suggesting all airlines be forced to adopt some sort of uniform pension guarantee. However, it is unseemly to allow a company who previously promised to pay to shuck themselves of that responsibility through the use of legal sleight-of-hand.

If the airlines can't pay the pensions, let them liquidate and use whatever funds they generate from liquidation to purchase annuities to cover their pensioners as much as they can.


User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4343 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5480 times:

SATX - while I generally agree with your overall sentiment, in this particular instance, it's misplaced. The PBGC is not funded with tax dollars, but with premiums paid by corporations. When the PBGC assumes the UA pensions, the payments will come from those fees collected from United and other corporations. While I don't agree with UA being allowed to dump existing pension obligations, at this point, it's not our (taxpayer) money involved.

Now, by assuming United's (and by inference every other troubled carriers') pension obligations, the PBGC goes bust, a la the Savings & Loan fiasco of the late 80s and 90s, then we'd likely see our tax dollars used to bail them out. That is one of the many reasons I don't agree with this action, but that is also the subject for another thread.

As for the sympathy strikes called by the AMFA, its more a posturing move than an actual threat. If you read the release, any strike called by the other airline AMFA unions, would be against United, not their respective airlines. In other words, AS, WN, TZ, etc., AMFA members would not cross or work on any UA aircraft/property. Since, for the most part, they don't anyway, it's a fairly empty threat, but it shows solidarity with their UA union brothers. AMFA cannot (without facing serious legal issues) call a strike at their own airlines in sympathy with UA. The Railway Labor Act doesn't allow it.

Duane



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5404 times:

It looks like I went off the handle on this one. I will look much closer at the PBGC before I make any additional far-reaching comments about them again. My general sentiment is that United should still be forced to pay the pensions, but my presumption that taxpayers would be directly involved was incorrect. Personally, I don't get very hot under the collar about taxes anyway, so complaining about them isn't really my bag.

As for pensions in general, I have never been employed by any business that has one. The closest I have ever gotten to a pension is a 401k matching contribution. However, it is my personal opinion that retirement savings are the responsibility of the individual and I don't harbor any ill will from the fact that pensions are a dying breed.

Now, does that clear everything up?



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineMcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1448 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5378 times:

SATX,

My apologies if I came unglued from your comments. The misinformation that is flowing on this issue is overwhelming and being involved directly in my career at UAL it is dissappointing to see the "let them liquidate" and that will fix everything comments just drives me nuts.

Someone made the comment that "they should have to pay what was agreed to". Well that is grand. However, times change and issues change that is what separates us from the rest of the cave dwellers. The ability to adapt is what is neccessary. This job is worth what is worth to whoever is doing it. I am a pilot and we lose the greatest amount of our pension. We have taken the largest percentage of paycuts and are now paid lower than most every other carrier. Is is still a job worth doing? Yes. I am getting close to my bottom dollar but as of now I am willing to keep going to help the airline.

As one final note. I see todays release from AMFA as a bad sign for the union. If they had the support they needed at UAL they would not be trying to drag in the other carriers. Also from what I have heard through the grapevine today there is progress with AMFA on a supplement to the PBGC pension to avoid in shortfalls for the employees.

My feeling is that the employee that is not happy should vote with their feet. The door is always open and please let yourself out if you want. Just don't burn down my house to support your cause.

Take care and again, sorry for the over the top reaction.


User currently offlineF9HNLPLZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 108 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5330 times:

Hooray for Mcdu. As I have stated before, I pray that UA makes it out of this OK and that all is well. The Union Presidents that are screaming strike and getting every one in an uproar will still get a paycheck if there is a strike. Now with the claims they have made, they are now for sure going to get the government involved. Here is an idea, come up with a idea to save the pensions. They say they have come up with one, but then it is reported the UAL management rejected it. HMMM, what was the ideas that were rejected? Fire the current Management? Didn't Tilton help an oil company out of Bankruptcy? I think I would want someone like that running the company.


Frontier Airlines, A Whole Different Animal. Maybe some day to Hawaii???
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3007 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5281 times:

I hope WN fires any employees that participate in any "sympathy strike".


Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineChristao17 From Thailand, joined Apr 2005, 938 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5268 times:

A second hooray for Mcdu and all the other hard-working UA employees. As a loyal UA family member and 1k flyer, it makes me sick to think of the possibility of a strike and potential liquidation of the carrier. Hang in there and let's make it to the next (and better) chapter in UA's history.


Keeping the "civil" in civil aviation...
User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5150 times:

Here is another little Updated News ~
But I think its the same but. . . I love seeing this rollout ~

The union representing mechanics at bankrupt United Airlines on Thursday said mechanics at seven other US carriers have vowed to support their colleagues at United, "up to and including the right to strike."

The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association said this week that United's mechanics were planning a strike in defense of their pension plans, which the carrier hopes to shift to government pension insurers.

Thursday's AMFA announcement beefs up that threat, saying mechanics at Alaska Airlines, ATA, Horizon, Independence Air, Mesaba, Northwest and Southwest would strike in sympathy with United's mechanics if a bankruptcy judge approves the pension shift.

[Edited 2005-05-06 03:06:48]

25 CWAFlyer : I cant wait for next week........the tempture is just starting to rise.....Employees Have Had enough this kind of action in this country is 20 years
26 PlaneSmart : Solidarity is one thing - stupidity another. UA staff shouldn't be encouraged to strike by the apparent support from staff in other airlines. Some may
27 Filejw : I hope these guys remember what happen to the American pilots union.An unauthorized strike cost them about 40 million and just about bankrupted the un
28 RyanAFAMSP : CXA 340 posted a few facts and a lot of hogwash. The Railway Labor Act of 1926 (NOT the National Railway Act) has no special language regarding bankru
29 B737200300 : Go for it United, I'm a AWA Tech, I hope that they stick to their guns on this one.....
30 Bcbhokie : So how does a "sympathy strike" work? I can understand if unionized mechanics at, say, WN refuse to perform contract mx work on UA aircraft that norma
31 DeltaA380 : With all due respect to shareholders, myself included, CXA340 has very nicely summed up the 1984ian attitude of US business and the Republican menace
32 RDUDDJI : Whew...I'm glad everyone beat me to responding to that...I was about to fly off the hiznandle! Sometimes, I'm glad I work the night shift so I can sl
33 B737200300 : What kind of presence will this have on the rest of the industry, the Union needs to work for UA mechanic and not for the Supreme Court, this could gi
34 Patrickj : Speaking as one who's airline retirement was pirated away to the PBGC for safe keeping at maybe 40% of what I would receive. And speaking as a conserv
35 Supa7E7 : The PBGC is IMMENSELY underfunded and WILL BE BACKED BY TAX DOLLARS. It is welfare indeed - NOT corporate welfare, but personal welfare to pensioners.
36 Arrow : It might be worth taking a look at the other big pension-related implosion in the U.S. -- the steel industry. The U.S. steel industry fell into disarr
37 FlyHoss : Searpqx (very well) wrote: "The PBGC is not funded with tax dollars, but with premiums paid by corporations. When the PBGC assumes the UA pensions, th
38 Tgocean : Stupid. Suicidal. When The Public reads about a UA strike in the general press, you can kiss future bookings goodbye. Unions! Bosses get paid, rank-an
39 Thucydides : Ok, where to start...I guess I will work backwards... Patrickj, Supa7E7, and Arrow - I agree with much of what you say... Pensions are a mess, and not
40 Srbmod : Once the mechanics at UA strike, the clock starts ticking on the airline. Regardless of whatever fellow AMFA wrenchturners at other airlines do in a s
41 FriendlySkies : Ok, ok...there are two scenarios: A) United cancels pensions and sends them to PBGC. United stays in business, employees keep jobs. B) Employees strik
42 SATX : Okay, I've been reading that the PBGC does not yet get any funding from public tax payers, but I've also been reading that the end result years from n
43 CTHEWORLD : Typical Liberal Democrat, only reading the headline and not getting the facts. The PBGC is a Government managed insurance fund. The 6.6billion comes
44 Uadc8contrail : i wonder how O.V. and his idiots are going to pimp out these morons who go out on strike and get fired.....ual mechs would have a hard time getting on
45 CTHEWORLD : An you represent socialism, which has proven itself to be obsolete and the ruin of many large and proud nations.
46 CTHEWORLD : The best thing for you to do is to speak up and get vocal with your co-workers at your base. O.V., Davidowitch and all of those leadership monkeys ar
47 SATX : So you're saying that they should force the companies to pay more into the PBGC fund? I fully agree. Oh wait, it's just an attack. Never mind. I stil
48 United737522 : Sympathy strikes--Yeah, lets go strike so our airline can suffer as well, then they can pass their loss that we just caused, back down to us via paycu
49 CTHEWORLD : Just countering the babble in your first, uninformed post. No, I am saying that when the funding schedule was accelerated by Clinton backed legislati
50 SATX : I've already taken responsibility for my first post on this thread. I was obviously not in possession of all the facts and my assumptions came back t
51 AA717driver : The CEO's I've run into seem to be loyal to only one entity--Themselves. The level of greed by corporate execs has remained constant regardless of whi
52 Indy : Agreed. I would guess it is very unlikely that this group has the funds to cover the pensions for years to come for United alone. What about US Airwa
53 CTHEWORLD : Most likely the tax payer. But your beef shouldn't be with the companies that fell back on the system they paid in to, your beef should be with the F
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