Keep in mind that competition on these routes is not restricted to AR, LA, RG and LCC GOL, but LH flies daily GRU-EZE (B747) and GRU-SCL (A346 with lie-flat seats on Biz), while BA flies GRU-EZE (B747). Competition is very tough on the GRU-EZE and GRU-SCL routes....
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8761 posts, RR: 42 Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 13232 times:
Well, they might just as well improve the econ food too. While it is nice to have "real" silverware, it won't help much if you still have that shoe hard steak or that whatever you want to call it pasta (I'm exaggerating here, JJ food is not that bad, but it's still econ food).
In addition, their competition use widebodies on both routes, another reason to improve onboard service.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
TAM currently offers codeshares with American Airlines, and KLM Royal Dutch Airlines among others. Since the end of the VARIG/TAM agreement, anyone's guess as to who TAM will become a part of. In most cases AA/LA offer a great network. LA and JJ compete on several routes that AA and LA codeshare on. In addition JJ seems to be very happy with its agreement with KL to service SCL, EZE, GIG via GRU. TAM (JJ) at current seems to be pulling an Emirates, or Virgin Atlantic. TAM is waiting and patiently enjoying the view!
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7431 posts, RR: 44 Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13047 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8): they are just watching and enjoying the advantage and freedom of bilateral agreements
Given Brazil and Mexico's position as Latin America's largest and second largest aviation markets, respectively, AM should enter into codeshare agreements with JJ so that AM can place its code on some JJ flights in and out of GRU (including the flight to EZE). In addition, JJ should be able to sell seats on AM's flights between MEX and GRU and in some key flights in and out of MEX (such as CUN and LAX). What do you guys make of this idea? I believe this would justify an additional 772ER order for AM to fly it to GRU instead of the 762ER's it currently sends to Brazil.
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 51 Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13036 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 9): Given Brazil and Mexico's position as Latin America's largest and second largest aviation markets, respectively, AM should enter into codeshare agreements with JJ so that AM can place its code on some JJ flights in and out of GRU (including the flight to EZE
I totally agree with you. However, apparently AM codeshares to GRU with MX, correct? How would AM/MX handle this situation? Strange enough MX also puts its code on RG flight..I never understood this...Also, you have to consider whether JJ could not start flights to MEX with its own metal the same way it did to EZE and SCL;, but is there space for yet another market player on MEX-GRU? Also, traffic Mexico-Brazil will get a bit complicated now that Mexico decided to reintroduce VISA for Brazilians [related to Brazil's support to Chilean candidate for OAS in detriment to Mexico's Foreign Minister...].
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7431 posts, RR: 44 Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13034 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11): apparently AM codeshares to GRU with MX, correct? How would AM/MX handle this situation? Strange enough MX also puts its code on RG flight..I never understood this
My sentiments exactly. This is one of the weirdest arrangements I have heard of. For RG it must be infurating since they used to be MX's exclusive partner to GRU and now MX has the ability to sell seats in both AM and RG's flights. In any case, I believe this AM-MX codeshare to Brazil will be among the first to go once AM and MX are sold by CINTRA later this year.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11): you have to consider whether JJ could not start flights to MEX with its own metal the same way it did to EZE and SCL;, but is there space for yet another market player on MEX-GRU?
Absolutely right. It would be awesome to see JJ in MEX. I have the impression that AM and RG flights between MEX and GRU are always full or near full, and I recall reading that RG was considering adding additional capacity in this route, so there may be room for a 4x weekly flight by JJ. In addition, fares are high (people looking for cheaper fares usually end up flying CM or AR) so the route is very profitable for both AM and RG.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11): Mexico decided to reintroduce VISA for Brazilians [related to Brazil's support to Chilean candidate for OAS
I had no idea of this Hardi (do you have a link or something?). This is just insane! That just goes to show how erratic and shortsighted the international policy of the current Mexican government is. This and other diplomatic mistakes make me happy that the Chilean Interior Minister will be the next Secretary General of the OAS and not our dumbass Foreign Affairs Minister. I hope the Mexican government will reconsider this stupid move and cancel the visa requirement for Brazilians.
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 51 Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13043 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 12): For RG it must be infurating since they used to be MX's exclusive partner to GRU and now MX has the ability to sell seats in both AM and RG's flights
Agree with you, but RG still depends on a local partern and proably RG is also thinking on the longer terms. As you mentioned, with the CINTRA deal, AM and MX cooperation will ge gone. RG needs to keep a local partner in MEX.
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 12): I have the impression that AM and RG flights between MEX and GRU are always full or near full
Correct, loads and yields are very healthy on MEX-GRU; CM, TA and AR usually attract fare-oriented pax.
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 12): I had no idea of this Hardi (do you have a link or something?). This is just insane!
I also think the same. The information was publised in O Globo newspaper, biggest in Rio de Janeiro. News are for subscribers only, so I pasted the article (in Potuguese) below:
------------------- "México vai voltar a exigir visto de brasileiros
05/05/2005 - 14h04m
José Meirelles Passos e Eliane Oliveira - O Globo
WASHINGTON e BRASÍLIA - Daqui a duas semanas o México passará a exigir visto de entrada aos brasileiros que desejem visitar o país, mesmo como turista. O objetivo da iniciativa é interromper - ou ao menos reduzir significativamente - o crescente fluxo de pessoas que saem do Brasil e usam o México como um corredor para entrar por terra, ilegalmente, nos Estados Unidos. Desde fevereiro de 2004 os brasileiros podiam entrar no México só com o passaporte, graças a um acordo fechado entre os dois governos em dezembro de 2003.
A embaixadora do México no Brasil, Cecilia Soto, disse nesta quinta-feira que ainda não recebeu nenhuma informação sobre a exigência de visto de entrada aos brasileiros que desejam visitar o país. Ela afirmou, porém, que da última vez que conversou com seus colegas no governo mexicano foram feitas considerações nesse sentido.
A medida é tida como o resultado de fortes pressões do governo americano. A Patrulha de Fronteira dos EUA tem detido, em média, 75 brasileiros por dia desde outubro passado. O governo do México, no entanto, nega que tenha havido qualquer tipo de coerção:
- É uma questão humanitária, pois são grandes os riscos para quem tenta fazer aquela travessia. Nós temos uma tradição de hospitalidade, de atenção cuidadosa com os visitantes estrangeiros e temos um carinho específico pelos brasileiros - argumentou um porta-voz da Secretaria de Relações Exteriores (SRE) do México.
A SRE e o Instituto Nacional de Migração estão cuidando dos últimos detalhes para oficializar a exigência de visto a brasileiros. Além de obter um visto num consulado mexicano, ao desembarcar no México os cidadãos brasileiros terão de apresentar uma passagem de volta, o endereço de um hotel ou de uma residência no país. E também deverão demonstrar que têm dinheiro suficiente para se manter durante a permanência declarados no formulário de entrada.
Fontes diplomáticas, no entanto, insinuaram que a nova exigência seria uma forma do México demonstrar na prática a sua insatisfação com o fato de o Brasil ter apoiado o candidato do Chile, e não o mexicano, para o posto de secretário-geral da Organização de Estados Americanos (OEA). O chileno José Miguel Insulza foi o vencedor.
Essa especulação ganhou corpo porque o número de brasileiros (2.444) detidos no México e deportados ao serem apanhados quando tentavam entrar ilegalmente nos EUA, no ano passado, significou apenas 1% do total de estrangeiros (215 mil) apanhados na mesma situação. A grande maioria é formada por cidadãos da América Central, dos quais o México não exige visto.
Em janeiro e fevereiro passados o governo mexicano impediu a entrada no país de 1.295 brasileiros, por suspeitar que se tratavam de pessoas que pretendiam entrar clandestinamente nos EUA. Nesse mesmo período, 242 brasileiros foram detidos por policiais do México nas proximidades da fronteira com aquele país."
Ghost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5167 posts, RR: 52 Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12921 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11): Also, traffic Mexico-Brazil will get a bit complicated now that Mexico decided to reintroduce VISA for Brazilians [related to Brazil's support to Chilean candidate for OAS in detriment to Mexico's Foreign Minister...].
Ain't true! This has nothing to do with the Bra-Chile alliance.
REAL REASON BEHIND:
A lot of brazilians are arriving to Mexico with normal and legal tourist visas declaring they will be in Mexico for only a few days, but at the end they're staying in Mexico to work or either to cross the Mex-Us border.
-------> 04:57 P.M., 06 Mayo 2005 MEXICO, Mayo 6 (AFP) - Las autoridades mexicanas han detectado desde el año pasado un gran número de ciudadanos brasileños que llegan al país con visado de turista, pero con otros objetivos, por lo que están evaluando esta situación con representantes de Brasil, informó este viernes la cancillería de México.
El subsecretario mexicano para América del Norte, Gerónimo Gutiérrez, que no precisó si el propósito real de estos falsos turistas es emigrar ilegalmente a México o Estados Unidos, salió así al paso de las informaciones aparecidas en la prensa mexicana esta semana que afirmaban que México quería volver a pedir visas a los turistas del país sudamericano.
"En los últimos años, las autoridades migratorias de México han observado que un número importante de ciudadanos de Brasil que llegan a México por propósitos de turismo de acuerdo con su solicitud no llegan con ese propósito", dijo el subsecretario mexicano para América del Norte.
Desde febrero del año que viene, México no pedirá visado a los brasileños que llegan al país norteamericano en viajes de turismo.
Gutiérrez no negó ni afirmó que su país pretenda revocar este medida y se limitó a decir que ante el número "importante" de rechazos de ciudadanos que llegaron a México como turistas, han "informado a la cancillería brasileña de la situación, estamos revisándolo, viendo por qué está pasando esto".
El subsecretario reveló que el pasado 17 de marzo hubo una reunión con funcionarios de la cancillería brasileña en la que se les informó "que estábamos revisando eso y que estaríamos en contacto para ver cómo podemos solucionarlo".
"Conforme vayan analizando esta situación y se vaya llegando a conclusiones tendremos que tener una nueva reunión con la cancillería brasileña", agregó.
En los últimos meses, entre el gran número de migrantes indocumentados que son detenidos en México en su camino hacia Estados Unidos -la mayoría de ellos centroamericanos- se encuentra regularmente varios sudamericanos, incluidos brasileños.
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 51 Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12901 times:
The Mexican authorities backdracked and stated that they will not impose VISA for Brazilians anymore...[of course, otherwise Mexicans would also need to impose VISA for all of Central America...it is well known that the huge majority of illegals crossing the Mex-US borders are from Central America for which Mexico does not ask VISA].
The fact that Mexico backtracke on its decision shows that the issue was clearly linked to the Bra-Chile alliance for the OAS...Mexican Foreign Minister was very upset with Brazil because of its strong support for the Chilean candiate (that actually got elected).
Ghost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5167 posts, RR: 52 Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12890 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16): The Mexican authorities backdracked and stated that they will not impose VISA for Brazilians anymore
Nope. Mexican government said that they will make a deep study of what's going on with this during the rest of the year. They'll be taking a final decision next Feb 06.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16): Mexican Foreign Minister was very upset with Brazil because of its strong support for the Chilean candiate (that actually got elected).
Mexico is not upset with Brazil. Instead of insisting and going to the end of the resolution in order to get that place at the OAS, Mex F.M. decided to reject and decline in favor of Chile in order to conserve the calm in the region.
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7431 posts, RR: 44 Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12872 times:
Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 17): Mex F.M. decided to reject and decline in favor of Chile in order to conserve the calm in the region.
Funny enough, this decision came after he was summoned to a private meeting between Mr. Insulza and Condoleeza Rice. There is a long way between the official version and the truth. Fact is, the Derbez candidacy was a mistake from the beginning and I am sure Mexico probably holds some grudges against South American countries at the moment since Mexico expected Derbez to be widely supported and that never happened. Whether the visa-for-Brazilians issue was a retaliatory measure or not is an altogether different story, but I find it very likely, especially given the track record of our current administration's foreign-policy makers.
Fyano773 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 784 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12851 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18): There is a long way between the official version and the truth
Eddie, the whole scenario is somehow misleading and the overall situation goes far beyond this diplomatic event.
It seems that there's a profound rivalry between both countries and it's been reported Brazil has excluded Mexico from integration to the rest of the continent, for instance: Mercosur, perhaps, because Brazil's leading role in the region could dwindle down.
That's disappointing and reveals the lack of integration in LATAM.
BTW, have you dude become Brazilian?
About the current topic, it's interesting how TAM has varied its products; for sure JJ will increase market share.
If Mexico got denied, it is probably because it could lead to some sort of open door that U.S./Canadian companies could get through... something like the Free Trade Area of the Americas currently under negotiation, except it would be a trade loop hole.
Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 19): Mercosur, perhaps, because Brazil's leading role in the region could dwindle down.
A lot of countries in S. America are not part of Mercosur. Some, like Chile, are not full members.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7431 posts, RR: 44 Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12821 times:
Well, I will maybe get flamed for turning this discussion into a diplomatic/commercial one, but the truth is that Mexico's ambiguity towards Latin American integration is one of the factors that has excluded itself from stronger links with South America. For starters, Mexico has applied to Mercosur as an associate (not "full") member and I don't think Brazil, the group's leader, is interested in speeding things up and the reason is that Mexico's export-import "openness" is completely focused on the U.S. and Canada (as everybody knows, the U.S. and Brazil are now in the middle of a free-trade controversy that has delayed or perhaps killed ALCA), and so the "trade-loop" that PPVRA mentions becomes a very sound argument.
On the other hand, Mexico and Brazil are both trying to convince the UN that the Security Council needs to be reformed and that a permanent seat for a Latin American "power" needs to be created. Of course each country wants it for itself. Frankly, in my opinion, Mexico and Brazil, being the two largest and most influential countries in the region, should reach an agreement whereby such permanent seat would be shared, and make their best efforts to implement a synchronized and coordinated international policy as to world security with Latin America's interests as their number one priority. Since this is not happening, if the Security Council is reformed and such a seat is created, Brazil is in a much better position to get it since it has a largest economy, has a military industry whereas Mexico does not, and is regarded as a more legitimate representative of their interests by Latin American countries because its foreign policy is pro-third world integration, whereas Mexico's foreign policy is very erratic and, in many instances, clearly aligned with the needs and wishes of the U.S., so giving Mexico the permanent seat would seem to many like a machination deviced solely to increase the U.S.'s influence at the Security Council level.
Clearly South America is not waiting for Mexico to realize that it is in the best interest of Mexicans to become closer with Latin America, and Brazil is leading the efforts to create stronger cultural, economic, trade and political links with or without Mexico's acquiesence. Mexico's absence from the South America-Arab countries summit of a few days ago is a clear indication that Mexico is not being considered by Brazil for such iniciatives. Same with BRIC (the Brazil-Russia-India-China axis that seeks to improve life quality through trade and investment)... the size of the Mexican economy and the fact that it is one of the top 10 exporters worldwide make it a very suitable member for this informal association, but again its deep-rooted ideas that China is a competitor that only takes jobs and investments away from Mexico and the interdependence with the U.S. makes it an unwelcome member.
Sorry from moving the discussion away from its original subject. I'll understand if someone requests deletion of my posts or closing of the thread, but it's interesting to see where this discussion is heading.
As for my flag Fyano, I am temporarily changing it to Brazil as a sign of my excitement that I will be in Brazil for the wedding of very dear friends next week, and as a token of my love and appreciation for such a wonderful country and its incredible inhabitants. After I come back to Mexico City I will change it back.
Fyano773 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 784 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12809 times:
OK Eddie, I got your point, you're just being critic to Mexico, that's wise.
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 21): Sorry from moving the discussion away from its original subject. I'll understand if someone requests deletion of my posts or closing of the thread, but it's interesting to see where this discussion is heading.
No problem, your post is very comprehensive, thanks for the info.