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EK Will Go For Airbus A350  
User currently offlineMauriceb From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 14962 times:

acording to Luchtvaartnieuws
EK has choosen the A350 over the Boeing 787, in an order for up to 50 aircraft. the order will be announced next month on the paris airshow. i don't have more info




source:
(www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl) always has it by the right end. so no rumours...

172 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 14875 times:

well that's the article in the Times :
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-1602309,00.html



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineCXYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 14849 times:

Interesting development. Looks like the A350 isn't as dead as many thought (myself included). I suppose EK was partly attracted to the amount of input they'll have on the final design, and possibly by the earlier delivery dates (assuming they didn't have deposits in with Boeing).

User currently offlineHenny From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14746 times:

It seems EK have cash and cash to spare.

[Edited 2005-05-08 12:07:09]


3, 2, 1... Now!
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14742 times:

Luchtvaart news is citing the piece in the London Times.......which does not name sources and is confirmed neither by Airbus nor EK, so we shall see what the real story is. I must say that from the rumors and un-confirmed press releass floating around, it appears that Airbus has the momentum with the EK order.

Quoting Mauriceb (Thread starter):
acording to Luchtvaartnieuws


source:
(www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl) always has it by the right end. so no rumours...

True, its a good source, but its basically a collection of new stories released to the media after an event occured, so their accuracy rate is good. In the subject case, the London Times piece is still speculation as neither the airline or manufactuer has officially announced. There is some political issues going on in the UK at the moment concerning aid to launch the A350 as it relates to job creation and the subject article was likely planted in the respect to that matter.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6920 posts, RR: 63
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14723 times:

Isn't it about time RR got their engine on this thing?

User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3768 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14705 times:

PM, I agree!

Will RR put their engines on the A350, or is it to early to tell?

Great news for Airbus, will the A350's replace the A330's?

Rob!


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14700 times:

If true, this order from Emirates could really save the A350 program. This was one of a few "must win" competitions facing the A350.

User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14697 times:

If anything is going to carry the A350 in the short term, it will be the A359. It should be more efficient than what is currently on the market in the 280-300 pax market that has a similar range. I'm skeptical about the A358 though.


ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14621 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 7):
If true, this order from Emirates could really save the A350 program. This was one of a few "must win" competitions facing the A350.

It certainly takes far more than half a year before Airbus says "Yes, we continue the project." or "No, we don't". Time for Airbus and the airlines is definitly running not as fast as for us ...

As for the EK-deal I am ambivalent. On the one hand it brings money to Europe and secures employment, but on the other it backs a project with little chance of being successful.


User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14520 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 7):
If true, this order from Emirates could really save the A350 program. This was one of a few "must win" competitions facing the A350.

Indeed it is... Airbus would have been relying very heavily on this order coming through. We'll see at Paris whether true or not, but I don't doubt it yet, just want to hear it straight from the source.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 8):
If anything is going to carry the A350 in the short term, it will be the A359. It should be more efficient than what is currently on the market in the 280-300 pax market that has a similar range. I'm skeptical about the A358 though.

Yeah, it will just be interesting to see how Airbus mould both aircraft. They still have a lot of flexibility in the design of both variants, and they EK order might tailor it a little more.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 9):
It certainly takes far more than half a year before Airbus says "Yes, we continue the project." or "No, we don't". Time for Airbus and the airlines is definitly running not as fast as for us ...

What do you mean by this?

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 9):
As for the EK-deal I am ambivalent. On the one hand it brings money to Europe and secures employment, but on the other it backs a project with little chance of being successful.

How can you even say this yet? I assume you have a tangible basis for making such a statement.



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1922 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14512 times:

This is good news for Airbus. However, I have some conceirns with the fact that Emirates is almost Airbus' biggest customer and driving source behind two of Airbus' most important projects on the moment (A350/A380). On the other hand, if I can think about this as an "armchair CEO" than the real CEO's at Airbus would have secured this well.

Quoting CXYYZ (Reply 2):
Looks like the A350 isn't as dead as many thought (myself included).

Nope, you're right! I also thought Airbus wasn't heading in the right direction with the A350, but after seeing a rather interesting presentation on the A350 a month ago, I became somehow more confident.

I think Airbus will announce more orders for the A350 at the Paris Air Show. Airbus has always been very keen on announcing this sort of stuff at air shows.

Cheers!



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14476 times:

I disagree with PADspot concerning the doubts about the commercial viability of the A350.
True that the 787 had a flying start but for airlines in need to enter new markets the A350 is a great costsaver.
Airbus has chosen throughout the last two months restraint announcing any new customers.I have doubts that all airlines all of a sudden focus on the 787 and dis-reagrard the range from Airbus.I think Qatar will also go for the A350 .
And there might be some surprise-announcements in Paris next months.
A new wing is a major re-design for an aircraft and the increased use of new materials will make the A350 more competetive as compared to the A330.
Not to forget that slots for the 787 will now stretch into 2010-2011 timeframe !



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineKennyK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 482 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14474 times:

The A350 is certainly taking some flak due to its perception as being technologically inferior to the 787. Cast your minds back 10 years and I'm sure a similar debate would be happening regarding the 737NG-A320. If you want to argue technology then surely the 737NG was a futile attempt by Boeing to keep the 737 going.

Consider the facts, the original 737-100 entered service with Lufthansa in February 1968. The A320 entered service with Air France in March 1988 and the first 737NG a -700 entered service with Southwest in December 1997.

The NG entered service some 29 years years after the first -100, surely the debate at the time would have considered Boeing suicidal in the face of the state of the art A320 that had entered service only 9 years earlier. But as time has shown, Boeing chose right and the 737NG has proven to be a great success.

There must certainly be two competitors in this market segment, has the 787 stolen the limelight due to its earlier entry?, is the A350 not competitive enough?, should Airbus have waited a few more years then produced a true competitor?. Only time will tell what will come of the 787 and A350, I'm sure both will do well. Remember back to the 767-A310, both were launched at the same time, the 767 became the dominant aircraft by a margin of at least 3 to 1.

Now where is that crystal ball......


User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14470 times:

My concern about this, if it is true, is "How wide is the appeal of the 350".

If Airbus launch on the basis of an order from EK & Air Europe, but the craft doesn't have wide appeal and they only sell 150 or so, this could be a problem following on from the costly 380.

I have seen figures of $5 billion or so to develop this craft, and they are up against stiff competition, so probably won't get premium pricing.

Ruscoe


User currently offlineJush From Germany, joined Apr 2005, 1636 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14429 times:

like to hear that. Even better if this is true.. But i still rather would take the 787 myself. I like that design although i still remain airbus fan.


There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14394 times:

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 14):
If Airbus launch on the basis of an order from EK & Air Europe, but the craft doesn't have wide appeal and they only sell 150 or so, this could be a problem following on from the costly 380.

Yeah good point! The versatility of the A350 remains to be seen, as EK is definatly not the kind of airline that other major airlines will look at to compare fleet planning descisions!

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 14):
I have seen figures of $5 billion or so to develop this craft, and they are up against stiff competition, so probably won't get premium pricing.

Yeah again, pricing remains the relative unknown and Airbus will try not to screw themselves into a hole this time around!



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14389 times:

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 10):
What do you mean by this?

The A350 has been announced somewhere around September last year. Now after little more the half a year, it is simply to early to say "Yes! The orderbook justifies the continuation of the project." or "No, we drop it!"

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 10):
How can you even say this yet? I assume you have a tangible basis for making such a statement.

Correct! This is my personal opinion (but shared with many others ... highfive  Wink.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 12):
A new wing is a major re-design for an aircraft and the increased use of new materials will make the A350 more competetive as compared to the A330.

... a plane that does not need a successor yet. But beside that I desperately share your hopes concerning the economic viability of the A350!!! Although I am very pessimistic.


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14332 times:

EK seems in a league all its own. It's it really wise to build an aircraft for one unique airline? Look at what happened to the 764.

User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14296 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 17):
The A350 has been announced somewhere around September last year. Now after little more the half a year, it is simply to early to say "Yes! The orderbook justifies the continuation of the project." or "No, we drop it!"

Well the same could have been said in the early days of the 787 (then 7E7) project. Until ANA hopped on board many people were very nervous for many months sweating on the success of it and now look... its booming!

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 17):
Correct! This is my personal opinion

Well perhaps next time you might say "in my opinion" before you make us all think you knew something we didn't!  Wink



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14270 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 18):
EK seems in a league all its own. It's it really wise to build an aircraft for one unique airline? Look at what happened to the 764.

lol ... good one !! Especially if you consider that the 764 didn't cost about 4 Billion € to develop.

[Edited 2005-05-08 13:52:05]

User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 14218 times:

KennyK,

I do not think the 320/737NG comparison really applies well. Boeing basically built an airplane that is neck-an-neck with A320 by using a tried-and-trusted basic fuselage.

The 787/A350 scenario is different. Judging by the info made public by Airbus so far, the 787 will have clear edge over the 350 if it meets its specs. However, they might have made some big changes (non-public) to convince Emirates that they could make the better aircraft.

Whatever Airbus produces to compete againsts the 787, I think it will bear little resemblance to the warmed over A330 that they have been talking about in public. It will be better.


User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 14189 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 21):
Whatever Airbus produces to compete againsts the 787, I think it will bear little resemblance to the warmed over A330 that they have been talking about in public. It will be better.

Lets hope! I love the A330 but man, no way it competes with the 787 based on that design! We'll see soon hopefully.



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 14168 times:

...I also think Etihad are in discussions with Airbus regarding the A350....
They have indicated to be in close contact with Airbus regarding an announcement in Paris .



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6920 posts, RR: 63
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 14125 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 21):
the warmed over A330

That dismissive phrase was probably fair some months ago but I suspect that the A350 is now much closer to an all-new design. Think of the various iterations of the 747. Was the 747-400 a "warmed over" 747-300 whatever the superficial similarities? The 747 in production today has little in common with the models that were coming off the line in 1970. (For example, the 747-100 was selling wheareas the 747-400 no longer is. Sorry - couldn't resist it!)


25 N79969 : I agree with you. But bear in mind that the initial Airbus response to the 787 was doing nothing more than hanging 787 engines on the A330 and dismis
26 A319114 : Good news for Airbus, if it's true. They really need a big order for the A350. Is it safe to say that with this order the A350 project will definately
27 PM : Absolutely right. A big mistake from which I hope they have learned.
28 Post contains links B742 : Air Europa has shown intrest in the project too, they have signed a MoU for the A350, also QR & EY have shown intrest for the A350! http://www.airbus
29 Post contains links Beaucaire : http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayA...usiness_May37.xml§ion=business well Etihad are defenitely in the loop....
30 PM : Lots of IFs here but how would we (A.Net) feel about the A350 when (IF!) it has landed 50 orders from EK, 60 from QR, 30 from EY, 10 from Air Europa a
31 Bigsmile : I know that Airbus are looking at starting build of the A350 in the 1st quarter next year (2006) or first cut as it's called.The factory for the wings
32 LifelinerOne : Yes and no. Reactions for some airlines would be like: EK: Well, thats easy, these planes are paid with oil-money QR: Same thing here EY: Ahh, the cu
33 PADSpot : Nowadays most of the small gulf states and emirates earn most of their money with other things than oil. Some, like dubai don't even have oil anymore
34 Post contains links Monteycarlos : Indeed it would be considered much more than a paper plane made by the kid whose jealous of his friends better one! Wow, seems they are actually comm
35 Beaucaire : Iberia are among the airlines considering the A350 - should they also sign for a significant quantity ,the credibility of the aircraft would be confir
36 Xkorpyoh : EK didn't want the 787 because it was too small. If they go with the A359, which competes more closely with the 772, are the economics of the A359 tha
37 N79969 : It is kind of interesting that Emirates is the company stepping up to the plate for the A350. On one hand, they are Airbus's "Golden Child" customer b
38 Monteycarlos : Get away with what? This subsidy issue is much deeper than a comment like that warrants... If you are going to criticise A for certain things like su
39 PM : OK. We're mostly just whistling in the dark but here's something else to think about. Of the announced 787 orders, Airbus are probably not too surpris
40 GEnxPower : RR has yet to offer an engine for A350. They are working closely with Airbus now to get a suitable engine. As of now, the GEnx is the only engine for
41 MrComet : Congrats to Airbus if this is true. It is a big win. It is always harder to start a new program directly in the face of competition. EK likes BIG plan
42 LifelinerOne : People, I know Emirates isn't paying with oil-money, I was just expressing some common nonsense that floats around A.net frequently. What I was trying
43 Boeing7E7 : Hope they get more customers than this. The 350 is starting to look like Airbus's version of Boeing's 767-400.
44 OO-VEG : The European Market is still pretty much open, the battle has mainly been playing in Asia and the (Boeing minded) North America. Airbus has its strong
45 Post contains images Monteycarlos : I know, I was just using your comment to try and dispell that notion. Hit the nail on the head with that one MrComet! Yeah, very true. These are goin
46 LifelinerOne : Ooh, that's probably never going to happen... Would be nice though. Cheers!
47 RedFlyer : I'll bet they're celebrating in Chicago/Seattle. A large order for the 350 from the likes of EK will surely lock-in the 350 in its current form. And r
48 Monteycarlos : Yeah, thats about as likely as me buying a Maybach! I think Boeing will be open to the competition of the A350. After all, it gives them a chance to
49 RedFlyer : Sure, you can call the 787 a "warmed over 767". Won't bother me. But it's hardly an accurate moniker. The 787 was, after all, designed from scratch a
50 PADSpot : What do you mean by that? Should AF asks Airbus not to sell airplanes to Emirates? Why should Airbus care about the alleged inability of AF to compet
51 WhiteHatter : The Emirates A332, 773 and 772ER aircraft all have Trent engines.
52 N79969 : I would call neither Northwest nor Air Canada "Boeing minded." NWA is Airbus #3 customer worldwide if I am not mistaken.
53 RayChuang : I think the big question is can Airbus afford to deliver the A350-9 at a reasonable price without have to soak European taxpayers for the project? Tha
54 Airbazar : Let's look at the facts as they stand today. Boeing have estimated the market for this aircraft size to be at 3,500. Boeing has just over 200 confirme
55 Jacobin777 : if I can recall, QR might be going with some 787's...it was mentioned in another post.
56 Monteycarlos : Well thats my point... All Airbus have told us was a statement a year ago saying they wanted a redesign of the A330. Does that mean they haven't gone
57 Post contains links Burnsie28 : First off, even if EK did order the A350, they could possibly be the only airline to do so (POSSIBLY, I DONT KNOW) if that was the case, the A350 woul
58 RedFlyer : I'm not disputing your point, Airbazar, but those are, after all, Boeing's estimates. I haven't heard what Airbus' estimates for the market is. And,
59 Reggaebird : Even though I am a Boeing fan, I would gladly welcome an order from EK for 50 Airbuse A350s. Airbuse will have 83% of its launch orders sitting with a
60 LifelinerOne : I actually had the chance to drive in such a car at my former employee, DaimlerChrysler! Err, how many Boeings does Qatar, Emirates and Ethihad curre
61 GeneralA : According to the "Global Market Forecast 2004", Airbus estimates • 10,900 mainline single-aisle aircraft, like the Airbus A320 Family; • 1,800 sma
62 PHXinterrupted : You can bet the house that Airbus is trying like hell to sell the 350.
63 Sebolino : You mean like the 787 was locked-in in its shape (shark tail ...) ? ?? Of course they are. What do you think they're doing ?
64 Reggaebird : Well, if you had read my statement, I said the following: Airbuse would have greater exposure to a change of fortunes for Emirates. Just admit it Air
65 Sebolino : And what you said was then pure crap, because it doesn't cost the taxpayer a eurocent.
66 PM : "Historically"? I think that's wishful thinking. They chose GE on their A310s and A300s but then went for RR on the 772s, A330s and 773s. They have G
67 Reggaebird : Ah! A european citizen's ignorance of how EU governments prop up Airbuse! How amusing!
68 PM : Is that what you want to believe or what you know to be true and can prove? I think we should be told.
69 KC135R : That remains to be seen...but, I am glad Boeing built the 764, even if it wasn't what they hoped it would be, because it's one of my favorite planes!
70 Bogi : Im sure he mean the Comment over the Easyjet deal, and not the whole Airbus Histrory. And let me tell you as one of these European citizen's I'm happ
71 Post contains links KC135R : They never said it was locked in, in fact they said that they wanted to give it a distinctive look on the outside so it would be easily recognizable,
72 Post contains images PANAM_DC10 : Here is what they have on direct order from Boeing; Qatar no oders with Boeing Etihad 5 773ER Emirates 4 773ER All those 3 carriers have on direct or
73 Dutchjet : KC135R - well said and thank you for your post.
74 C680 : If true (and lets assume it is true) that EK will order 50x A350 it could be the worst thing that could happen to Airbus. Reasons: 1) A350 is a modifi
75 Sebolino : What's amusing is that you don't know that Airbus has paid back all its loans since it has to (since it's a private company). With interests. But you
76 Brons2 : Very nice post. Clearly, I am a Boeing supporter, but I think your analysis is one of the best that I have seen from an A.netter. Definitely spot-on.
77 Post contains images Keta : Congrats to Airbus if this is true! Although I don't know what I'd want more, if Airbus starts to sell the A350 or if they didn't sell any so they had
78 Dhefty : To be a little more specific, NW is the largest operator of the A330 (40), but ILFC is the largest customer (92). ILFC is also the largest customer f
79 PM : Thanks. We're all just trying to understand what's going on beyond the hype.
80 Udo : The public will not know whether the aircraft is a B787 or A350 or whatever when searching for cheap fares or the best flight options. A.net users wi
81 KC135R : To be fair he did say "perceived".
82 Post contains links Xkorpyoh : "None of us - not me, not you, not Boeing - are going to let Airbus subsidize the A350. She said the Bush administration has moved correctly in suspe
83 ZOTAN : Could this be an order Boeing was hoping to go to Airbus? If this is true, and Airbus goes ahead with the A350, Boeing can now start developing a 737N
84 KL808 : This is great news indeed for Airbus, if it is true. I just want to mention here that I dont think that Airbus is stupid enough to create an aircraft
85 Sebolino : I don't know who is "she". But it will be even harder for Boeing when Airbus will have the same kind of subsidies than Boeing has: not repayable, and
86 KC135R : TO be fair again...AFAIK, every airplane so far has turned a profit and the launch aid has always been repaid. It does take some of the risk of out d
87 Post contains images Sebolino : After the "scandal" of the "subsidies" that Boeing and Bush seem to have discovered last year, more than 10 years after it was signed, and the "this
88 KC135R : Want to back up that statement that Boeing gets non-repayable subsidies - with facts? Don't give me that crap about tax breaks either. When and if EA
89 KC135R : That's not the point, what people are saying is this (and it is just speculation, but it is a theory nonetheless): If no orders were gotten for the A
90 AC787 : I think the point was that Business travellers would know the difference and that since this is the traveller airlines want most this fact of comfort
91 Udo : But business travellers also value alliance memberships, the variety of flight options, ground facilities, ground services and much more. And though
92 Post contains links Keesje : Emirates says no decision yet on Airbus A350, 05.08.2005 DUBAI (AFX) - Dubai-based airline Emirates has denied a press report that it had decided to m
93 ZOTAN : That wasnt my point, and I did not mean it to pro-Boeing or anti-Airbus. I was just ASKING whether or not Boeing could have been hoping for an order
94 KC135R : Indeed it does not...if anything, the quick, staunch denial would lead me to believe it is a made up, or highly over exaggerated, story. If it was tr
95 CX747 : It looks like we will all have to wait a little bit longer to see who the winner of this deal is. Any word on the LOT deal?
96 C680 : Exactly - thank you AC787 Before 787, I agree. After 787 - completely disagree. I'm not trying to be a snob, but I really doubt there are too many pe
97 Glideslope : This is music to Boeing's ears. To actually think that Airbus may have to BUILD THE A350!! Airbus can't afford this. They will not build the 350. The
98 Dutchjet : Thank you for pointing this out, this is not a done deal and its important to learn not to put to much reliance on the press releases and newpaper ar
99 FCKC : I am always surprised to read in all the 787/A350 threads that the 787 is far superior to the A350. Some months ago the reliable weekly magazine Fligh
100 Post contains links KC135R : The problem is, neither airplane has flown or been built so it is all speculation. The 787 is further along in the development process, so there is m
101 Reggaebird : FINALLY...we have a european who is willing to admit that Airbuse is propped up with public money. Maybe someday the european leaders and Airbuse wil
102 Post contains links KC135R : That source I mentioned above was given at a conference in NYC Feb 8, 2005. EDITED: I thought before this was lower range, but apparently my math is
103 Atmx2000 : Are they saying that the A350-800 will have greater than 9000nm range? That might make sense if they have to give the A350-900 greater range to satis
104 Post contains links Ruscoe : According to Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2005/05/08/afx2008434.html Ruscoe
105 Ckfred : How many planes does Airbus have to sell before the A350 program is officially a go? Is a total of 60 planes from 2 customers enough, or does Airbus n
106 Propulsion : Boeing is having a wonderful year and this news just made 2005 even better for them!!! I understand that EK need a slightly larger plane, but like man
107 KC135R : Apparently they are claiming 9100 NM if I read the article right.
108 NAV20 : As a general rule, Ckfred (if there IS such a thing in aviation!) you can reckon that about 300 sales are required before the cost of developing and
109 N60659 : Pardon me if this has been asked on this thread already.Thinking about this from EK's perspective: (1) If EK is ordering the A350, is it likely that i
110 Atmx2000 : I would think the advantage is that Boeing will know what Airbus is going to be offering in the A333/A343/772A/772ER space well before the bulk of th
111 Post contains images Iwok : Interesting opinion. You are correct that the 350 is going to be expensive, and therefore needs a lot of sales to be competitive. I wish I could look
112 Zvezda : The A350 has two advantages over the B787 in CASM: 1) The A350-800 and A350-900 have more seats than the B787-8 and B787-9 respectively due to greater
113 Post contains images Scbriml : So Boeing can work on two (or three if you add 747Adv) projects at the same time, but Airbus can't? Given the size of the MD80/90,737,A320 market bei
114 Atmx2000 : I thought the A350 would have to use higher thrust engines. Not impossible, just likely very uncomfortable for any extended journey.
115 Atmx2000 : 747Adv will be a much smaller program. There will be pressure from the tapping foot of WN. I'm sure they would love to get a replacement aircraft tod
116 QFA001 : This isn't necessarily true. The A330/350 has a circular fuselage whereas the B787 fuselage is ovalised. I haven't got nor performed an area figure.
117 Atmx2000 : As the 787 fuselage is taller than it is wide, the cross section has to be larger than that of the A350.
118 AvObserver : "according to Luchtvaartnieuws EK has choosen the A350 over the Boeing 787, in an order for up to 50 aircraft. the order will be announced next month
119 Post contains images QFA001 : Good point! That makes it very necessarily true.
120 Zvezda : I thought the airlines decided what thrust they want. Anyway, the engines are virtually identical. The rated thrust is probably a screwdriver adjustm
121 NAV20 : As I understand it, the big difference is that the 787's engines will be 'bleedless' and the A350's will only be 'less bleed'? Which could add up to t
122 QFA001 : FWIW, the A350 engines will have around 10% more thrust than the B787 variants. So, it's a bit more than a throttle-push change. Whether providing bl
123 Udo : I doubt the differences will be that clear. Airlines would hurt themselves by offering totally different comfort levels within their fleets. I have n
124 Sebolino : Despite the fact that it pleases you or not, tax breaks is one of the way to subsidize a company. So in your logic, it doesn't count because if ... a
125 Sebolino : Airbus receives public money,yes. And has paid back each and every cent with interest.
126 Leskova : NAV20, I know you're always keen on answering questions about Airbus projects and what you perceive as their "life below the poverty line" - but you
127 LifelinerOne : Airbus is already busy on the next generation A32X's. The A32XNG and the A350 are separate projects, funded apart from each others with different tea
128 Atmx2000 : If it is a 9000nm range aircraft. It depends also how much work can be leveraged from existing products and programs. If Airbus goes the full composi
129 BlueSky1976 : Remember what an all-new wing did to the 737NG family? Well, it's going to do the same for A350. And then some more... I personally hope Boeing will
130 Post contains images Toulouse : Wonderful Monteycarlos! So while so many of you are 'rightfully' pointing out the Airbus is not providing much information on the spces of the 350, a
131 Toulouse : Very well put NorCal. Anyway, I think this thread has gone totally off course.
132 PADSpot : Then let's bring it back on course. IIRC this post of Atmx2000 was last completely reasonable. This is an important point. When it comes to an all-new
133 LifelinerOne : People still seem to forget that Airbus does have experience with an all composite fuselage. They are building the first one right now, the Airbus A40
134 Atmx2000 : AFAIK, the A400 fuselage isn't composed of large barrel pieces, so the manufacturing technology will be different. Will this make maintaining a higher
135 PADSpot : I didn't knew that the A400 had a composite fuselage. You're maybe right about the barrel-shaped form, but the A400 certainly has a pressurized cabin
136 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Yes, but you have the knowledge on working with composites, you just need to adapt your production process to the new A320. Perhaps yes. However, wit
137 Atmx2000 : They already have the knowledge of working on composites. What does the A400 add? But that reminds me, that they have another major project on their
138 PANAM_DC10 : Indeed and thank you for re-iterating the point too. With the Paris Airshow not too far away the reports seem to be gathering momentum. They all lead
139 Prebennorholm : To those who questioned Airbus' competence concerning carbon fibre composites: The world's largest and most complicated carbon fibre composite structu
140 OldAeroGuy : Isn't this sort of thing what Airbus says is an unfair subsidy to Boeing?
141 Post contains links and images KC135R : The lack of truth in your post amazes me, and I can not let it pass. The problem with this whole subsidy issue is that all the Airbus-bigots ignore t
142 Post contains images Monteycarlos : All I can do is suggest you do some reading before typing the random thoughts that come into your head... a good start would be EADS' and Boeing's an
143 KC135R : It is appropriately named (but not very creatively): EU – US Agreement on Large Civil Aircraft 1992: Is that the one you mean?
144 Monteycarlos : HAHA! Thats the one! Thanks mate.
145 Lightsaber : I always thought they would dust off the A305 plans and enlarge it/improve it for the A350. Alas, Boeing went for the risk and I think by maint. alon
146 RedFlyer : That's a lame claim (you like the rhyme?) by Airbus. Boeing had to compete for those defense contracts. It's not as if they were sole-sourced. Also,
147 Post contains images KC135R : Well except for a couple of Darleen Druyun contracts that were - at the very least - questionable.
148 Atmx2000 : It's also a very expensive and inefficient way of funding technology advances if that is your intention, since you are spending lots of money to buy
149 RedFlyer : I thought of that after I posted my reply. At least no one can say Boeing got away with it. And they've definitely paid the price -- several senior c
150 KC135R : I predict - no tanker modernization for another 5-10 years or so (earliest), then maybe a 787???? The biggest problem with the KC-135 is corrosion, a
151 Post contains images Monteycarlos : Who have officially tendered for this contract? LOL! What is the current 767 backlog?
152 KC135R : 18 total according to Boeing's website. 2 for ANA 767-300F 1 for Eithiopian 767-300ER 3 for JAL 767-300ER 6 for Lan 3 767-300ER and 3 767-300F 6 Unid
153 Monteycarlos : Aeromexico? I'm not sure but I read something a little while ago about an airline having outstanding orders for the 767-200ER, just can't remember wh
154 Post contains links KC135R : http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/systems/e-10.htm Pretty cool...kind of an JSTAR and AWACS in one, plus command and control.
155 Atmx2000 : It's an AWACs and J-STARS replacement for the Air Force.
156 Monteycarlos : Awesome... but only one airframe? That link which KC135R kindly posted says its due to be based on the 767-200ER model, wouldn't this mean the -400ER
157 KC135R : I think, but I could be wrong, it started out as a 762, but as the onboard "stuff" increased it evolved to the 764.
158 Toulouse : KC135R Your reply no. 141 isn't bad at all! While I'm not going to/can't argue with most of what you said in that post, if we turned things around and
159 Monteycarlos : If not extermely long! Hehe! It was a big post - took me two coffee's to read it all!
160 PANAM_DC10 : IIRC, the 5 762s are for Military platforms for Italy & Japan. The 764 is for the E-10 and that program is based upon the 767-400. Regards
161 Post contains images Sebolino : Your hypocrisy amazes me (to use your own words). A tax break is not an aid ? Ok, so what is it intended to ? Make the business harder for a company,
162 Sebolino : OK for that, but for the moment, Boeing "pulled out " of the agreement, that means is exceeding the amount allowed in subsidies, and wants Airbus to
163 PANAM_DC10 : Please validate that statement with fact, that is, how exactly, is Boeing "exceeding the amount allowed in subsidies"? You obviously know so if you'd
164 Post contains links Sebolino : The agreement allows Boeing to receive 3% of the total turnover of civil widebodies in direct or indirect subsidies, while it allows Airbus to have 3
165 PANAM_DC10 : Sebolino Thank you. Yes, your source is the EU. Not independent. I agree that no-one but top management and Politicians know the true numbers and the
166 Post contains images PM : Everything!
167 N79969 : Perhaps my point was unclear. I am not suggesting that Airbus should not sell to Emirates. Quite the opposite. Many European airlines are indeed prof
168 Post contains images Backfire : EK has actually carved itself out as a loyal R-R customer, which is why it was such a surprise when EK went for the GP7200 for the A380 - leading to
169 PADSpot : At first Europe was not as heavily affected by 9/11 as the US. Additionally at the beginning of the century the european aviation market was not as s
170 Post contains images KC135R : I said I don't care what you call it, subsidy - tax break, whatever - it doesn't matter. In WTO terms, tax breaks are considered an indirect subsidy.
171 PM : Why not? The launch aid is in part to create and protect jobs, high-tech know-how and so on. If Boeing want to relocate to Toulouse and open a major
172 PADSpot : Certainly not to the same extent as Airbus. But simply because the profits would go to the US and not remain in the EU. There are plenty of examples
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