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How Did UAL End Up In This Shape?  
User currently offlineAa777flyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6898 times:

How did UAL wind up to be in almost the worst positition of any airline in the world? I know 9/11 played a major part as did the rapid growth of LCC's. But UA has wound up in a very bad position. AA and UA have followed similar paths throughout history, and while AA still has some issues, UA just cannot seem to get their act together.

Was it the pilot work issue that UAL had in 2000, that started the downward run?

107 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6866 times:

*They are being massacred at all of their hubs. Denver has F9, Chicago has TZ and WN, Washington now has IAir (not for long), San Francisco and LA are getting more and more low fare service. The NYC focus city has B6 and Song all over it. No matter where they turn someone is getting to them.

*Their payscales have always been some of the highest in the industry.

*They have a pretty diverse fleet (733, 735, 319, 320, 757, 767, 777, 747).

*The pilot fiasco did give them a lot of bad press and publicity. From what I hear, a lot of loyal UA fliers in DEN discovered F9 this way.

And, UA is not the worst positioned airline in the world. As long as the planes with flags on the tails and "low cost" CRJs are flying around, they won't be at the very bottom. UA has a very well known name, a good route network (lots of higher yield Asian flying) and a fleet that can take advantage of the International network. That being said, they are in rough shape.

AAndrew


User currently offlineCTHEWORLD From Mayotte, joined Dec 2004, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6852 times:

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 1):
They have a pretty diverse fleet (733, 735, 319, 320, 757, 767, 777, 747).

733/735 are the same fleet

319/320 are the same fleet

757/767 are the same fleet

777 stand alone

747 stand alone

Their fleet is no more diverse than having

MD-80
A300
737
737NG
757/767
777

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 1):
UA has a very well known name, a good route network (lots of higher yield Asian flying) and a fleet that can take advantage of the International network.

Not to mention cash in the bank still (with the last reports that cash balances were going up????), CH.11 proceedings that to this point have been going their way and 4 banks willing to pony up 2.5 billion if they can deal with their remaining cost issues (pensions namely).

Now whether or not the Mechanics and FA's sabotage the whole thing is another question.

C


User currently offlineSpike From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1170 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6820 times:

UA are in the mess that they are simply due to work ethitic and pride. They have none. They should drop their domestic routes (non-hub) and businesses and be taken over by Northwest Orient. imho.

User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11405 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6794 times:

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 2):
Their fleet is no more diverse than having

MD-80
A300
737
737NG
757/767
777

Yes, it is. UA operates far more subfleets than AA:

1) A319
2) A320
3) 737-300 Non-Shuttle
4) 737-300 Ex-Shuttle
5) 737-500 Non-Shuttle
6) 737-500 Ex-Shuttle
7) 747-400
8) 757-200
9) 757-200 p.s. Transcon
10) 767-300 Domestic
11) 767-300 International
12) 777-200 Domestic Hawaii
13) 777-200 International 1
14) 777-200 International 2

vs. AA:

1) Airbus A300
2) 737-800
3) 757-200
4) 757-200 TWA (in the process of retirement)
5) 767-200
6) 767-300
7) 777-200 International (all soon to be in standardized configuration)
8) MD-80
9) MD-80 TWA

The complexity of operating 14 types, as UA does, especially since they are not consolidated at specific hubs as AA's aircraft are, adds complexity and costs a lot of money for maintenance, training and logistics.


User currently offlineCTHEWORLD From Mayotte, joined Dec 2004, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6777 times:

Nope, wrong again. From an operational perspective training is the same on all 737's, the 319/320 fleet, the 757/767 fleet. The 777 an -400 are stand alone, but pretty are pretty much on a static route network. I don't know where you get this "sub-fleet" business from, if you operate a 737 mainline you can operate a 737 shuttle with the same training, same goes for the 757/767/757 ps. There aren't 14 types in the UA fleet, you are just flat out wrong. Aside from spares inventory, cabin config doesn't make a different fleet. Besides, many interior components (seats especially) are shared accross fleets.

C


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11405 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6765 times:

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 5):
m an operational perspective training is the same on all 737's, the 319/320 fleet, the 757/767 fleet.

I'm aware of that, there are almost completely (but not completely) common flight and service training standards for the fleets you mentioned.

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 5):
I don't know where you get this "sub-fleet" business from, if you operate a 737 mainline you can operate a 737 shuttle with the same training, same goes for the 757/767/757 ps.

I never said that a 737 FA can't operate all 737s. I never said that. However, it absolutely makes an operational difference if you have a 737 Shuttle config running ORD-LGA, which then has to be subbed for a non-Shuttle 737 with eight fewer seats. This is just a minor example, but they are operationally two different configurations and thus require more advanced logistical planning and scheduling, and thus add complexity.

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 5):
There aren't 14 types in the UA fleet, you are just flat out wrong. Aside from spares inventory, cabin config doesn't make a different fleet.

Nobody said there were 14 types in the UA fleet -- I don't know where you got that from. I said there were 14 subfleets in the UA fleet, and I think I illustrated my point.


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6757 times:

Simple...... Spending more then what was coming in.


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineCTHEWORLD From Mayotte, joined Dec 2004, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6748 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
The complexity of operating 14 types, as UA does,

Read above. In this business "type" has a meaning. You did say it.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11405 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6748 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 7):
Simple...... Spending more then what was coming in.

Too true, too true.  Smile


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11405 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6742 times:

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 8):
Read above. In this business "type" has a meaning. You did say it.

I apologize, you are correct. Let me rephrase that:

The complexity of operating 14 subfleets, as UA does, especially since they are not consolidated at specific hubs as AA's aircraft are, adds complexity and costs a lot of money for maintenance, training and logistics.


User currently offlineCTHEWORLD From Mayotte, joined Dec 2004, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6714 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):
costs a lot of money for maintenance, training and logistics.

?? heavy maintenance for each fleet type is only performed at certain dedicated facilities. Small maint items, granted, are going to be an issue, but that happens with any airline that serves a city with more than one a/c type. It really isnt that big of a deal to swap a mainline 320 for a Ted 320 or shuttle configd 737 for a mainline. Additionally, couldn't AA (or any major that has 2 different configurations) face the same issues with their 777 A vs. B or their 757-231 vs. 757-223, Pratt vs. RR powered (from a maint and parts perspective)?

C


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11405 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6694 times:

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 11):
It really isnt that big of a deal to swap a mainline 320 for a Ted 320 or shuttle configd 737 for a mainline.

It can be in a high-volume, oversale or high-F volume, high-yield situation.

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 11):
Additionally, couldn't AA (or any major that has 2 different configurations) face the same issues with their 777 A vs. B or their 757-231 vs. 757-223, Pratt vs. RR powered (from a maint and parts perspective)?

Yes, every airline naturally must face this if they operate more than one aircraft type, but AA is dramatically reduced the impact of this on its operations by very smartly reducing the number of aircraft it operates at different hubs, which cuts down on maintenance, logistics, handling, material and labor costs:

AA types operated at DFW: 5
AA types operated at ORD: 4
AA types operated at MIA: 5
AA types operated at LAX: 6

UA types operated at ORD: 8
UA types operated at DEN: 8
UA types operated at SFO: 8
UA types operated at IAD: 8

I did not isolate the TED A320s from mainline, even though obviously it would be a major operational change if a TED A320 had to sub for a United A320.


User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6685 times:

what are you people going to do when that pig shuts down?????what airline will be in your scope then, im all for free speech but some of us will be going into rehab at the thought of no more ual bashing going on in here....commavia....you are just plane wrong about a lot of stuff you post here....and Aa757first....go to pilotpay.com that will show what every airline pilot makes in the usa....it just goes to show you that you can pay more money to a WN pilot than a ual,aa or even nw and still make cash...


bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11405 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6671 times:

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 13):
what airline will be in your scope then, im all for free speech but some of us will be going into rehab at the thought of no more ual bashing going on in here

I am not bashing any airline. I hope that UA survives and prospers; we are simply discussing how UA, once arguably the strongest airline in the world, got to a place where it is now in bankruptcy, laying off thousands and trying to eliminate its employees' pensions.

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 13):
commavia....you are just plane wrong about a lot of stuff you post here

What, specifically?


User currently offlineCTHEWORLD From Mayotte, joined Dec 2004, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6642 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
It can be in a high-volume, oversale or high-F volume, high-yield situation.

EXTREMELY rare incident, where in you have a high yield A320 at a station that can't be swapped for another 2 class on a lower yield and then sub the Ted a/c, but again...very rare.

But you still haven't explained how it is efficient to have 757s powered by two different types of engines. Also, the interior config issue isn't that big of a deal, AA is faced with the same problem, aren't they with their "New Look" interiors vs. the Old Look interiors or the TWA interior vs. the AA interior.

C


User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6635 times:

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 11):
It really isnt that big of a deal to swap a mainline 320 for a Ted 320

There are twelve First Class seats on the mainline A320s. Obviously, there are no First Class seats on Ted A320s. So lets see:

I'm getting $183 between PHL and ORD on UA for Coach and $1,083 for United. So, if someone paid full price for the First Class seat, that's $900 back to the passenger. Plus, hopefully a free flight in First Class on the passenger's next flight. So at a .15 CASM (First Class, remember), the average trip would then cost United around $135 or so. So they just lost $1,135, plus meal vouchers by using that Ted A320.

That's the tip of the iceberg. Mr. Joe Hotshot, an Elite member, decides he has missed out on his First Class seat too many times. So he gets a new frequent flier card, only instead of Mileage Plus on the side, it says AAdvantage or OnePass.

I don't know how well United keeps their Ted A320s isolated. I know for a fact Continental did a miserable job keeping their Lite planes separated, leading to product inconsistency.

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 13):
Aa757first....go to pilotpay.com that will show what every airline pilot makes in the usa....it just goes to show you that you can pay more money to a WN pilot than a ual,aa or even nw and still make cash...

I visit that site frequently. United does not use their pilots as efficiently as Southwest does. And let's remember, fuel still costs SWA $27 a barrel.

AAndrew


User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6627 times:

commavia...the fleet issues...there is no sub fleet as you have elluded to, AA operates 5 type of a/c and ual ops 5 as well...there is no difference other than seat config on the 737, the 777 difference is payload and range, you stated that advanced planning goes into a/c swaps....ive seen it done in 5-10 mins...if we were to go with your method of logic then nwa would win hands down on all the different sub fleet types...


bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently offlineCTHEWORLD From Mayotte, joined Dec 2004, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6620 times:

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 16):
United does not use their pilots as efficiently as Southwest does

Southwest doesnt fly internationally long haul, so yes naturally, UA pilots are going to have, on average, less segments a day and more layover time, it is an apples to oranges comparison. A closer comparison would be to look at just Ted scheduling vs. WN


User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6606 times:

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 18):

Southwest doesnt fly internationally long haul, so yes naturally, UA pilots are going to have, on average, less segments a day and more layover time, it is an apples to oranges comparison. A closer comparison would be to look at just Ted scheduling vs. WN

Well that's very nice, but the passenger travelling between LAX and DEN doesn't give a damn that United has an international network. He only cares the Frontier can get him there for $6 less.

AAndrew


User currently offlineCTHEWORLD From Mayotte, joined Dec 2004, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6597 times:

Quoting Spike (Reply 3):
UA are in the mess that they are simply due to work ethitic and pride. They have none. They should drop their domestic routes (non-hub) and businesses and be taken over by Northwest Orient. imho.

First of all, lets look to the British for work ethic and pride, oh-ok. Secondly, UA's employees are turning in all time bests for performance. The intent to repurchase is at its highest, their on time performance is at the top of the industry, their complaint rates are down, a productivity is at record levels.

BTW...it is Northwest Airlines, not Northwest Orient....but then again you must be stuck in the days when Great Britain actually had industry and produced something.


User currently offlineUA777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6597 times:

Here's my slice of the pie,

United Airlines has yet to understand the consequences of their mass spending. Sure they are cutting back and making changes just not enough and in the wrong places. Post 9/11. Say what you want but 9/11 was the nail in the coffin. It is my impression that United has yet to understand how bad its going to be now that 9/11 has occurred and they have yet to change the structure of their airline. It takes CH.11, cut backs, and layoffs, sadly, to get the picture through to the airlines.

Pre-9/11 it was all about what the airline wanted to bring to the industry and they all spent what cash they had to do so. Now that 9/11 has happened and the economy is in the shit can the airlines can't do what they want to shape the industry, the industry is going to shape them.

United used to be the big fish in a small pond but the pond just got a whole lot bigger and now they're going to have to fight to survive. Sure they have cash in the bank but what the hell are they going to fall back on if what they have hits the $hit fan again. Unfortunately they have the wrong business structure and poor management. In the end it all comes down to who runs the show. Anyone can turn a company into the top dog and likewise anyone can turn a company into a bankrupt corp. I'm not to familiar with United's management but if you sit back and look at it. They're still fighting to survive. It shouldn't be like this. If other airlines can do it than so can United. It is going to take a lot of reworking, time, effort, cut backs, etc. to get the airline into a constantly profitable airline.

The whole United situation is distressing to all and I do wish them the best of luck.

Thanks,

Matt



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6599 times:

Quoting Aa777flyer (Thread starter):
How did UAL wind up to be in almost the worst positition of any airline in the world?

From http://www.airwhiners.net/whine_cheez/20021212.htm

Quote:

The company that a scant three years ago was hailed as arguably the most successful, largest and most profitable airline in history is now incapable of scrounging together enough loose change to make a routine debt payment.

Don't kid yourself with euphemisms like "spring cleaning", "fresh start" and other cuddly terms that serve no purpose other than to deny the obvious. Make no mistake folks. The company is BANKRUPT. Insolvent. Delinquent. That is what you call folks who can't meet their obligations.

There has been much finger pointing as to who is to blame for this fiasco. AFA blames IAM who blames ALPA who blames the ATSB who blames management who blames Osama Bin Laden. Personally, I think that although Osama was the catalyst that accelerated this freefall into the stygian depths of airline purgatory, UAL was committed to the slippery downward slope well in advance of 11 September 2001. UAL's true day of reckoning was 26 August 2000; the day that James Goodwin and Rick Dubinsky shook hands across a table in Elk Grove.

Charismatic leadership is essential for a good airline to maintain its industry leading position. Through history, UAL has been driven by leaders such as Pat Patterson, Dick Ferris and even Steven Wolf, all of whom left their mark upon the proud legacy of the friendly skies. Unfortunately ESOP created an environment where organized labor wound up with far too much of a say in how the company is run, and of course labor has a vested interest in ensuring that each leader is more ineffective than his predecessor. James Goodwin was a wonderful guy who dedicated his entire life to serving the airline he loved, but he had about as much charisma as a bowl of jello with just slightly more intelligence to boot.

When Goodwin and Rick Dubinsky faced off during the Summer From Hell, it was a mismatch worthy of any of the Buffalo Bills' Superbowl appearances. Simply put, on most issues Goodwin didn't stand a chance - and he fired wide right on the ones he might have been able to salvage. Dubinsky and his ALPA attack dogs mauled management to the point where capitulation to their ridiculous demands was the only humane course of action remaining by the time the end of August 2000 rolled around.

UAL was able to be so profitable in the late 1990s mainly because their labor costs were below those of the competition, thanks to the cost reductions that were made available through ESOP. As revenue soared amid the dotcom boom, UAL's profit margins also grew beyond anyone's wildest dreams as "Rhapsody in Blue" became "Rhapsody in Green" to reflect the sweet sound of money jingling into the corporate coffers. Unfortunately, due to a mixture of greed and stupidity, they then made the mistake of pegging their costs to the absolute apex of revenue. So when the economy inevitably tanked, the only sound emnating from Elk Grove was a loud SPLAT when the airline's high speed free fall finally arrested itself via impact on the pavement below as the airline's financial books played "Rhapsody in Red" in a B-flat key.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11405 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6565 times:

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 15):
But you still haven't explained how it is efficient to have 757s powered by two different types of engines.

It isn't, which is why AA is steadily drawing down the number of PW-powered ex-TWA 757s it operates, and doesn't even maintain the PW engines but sends them out because there are less than 50 of them.

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 17):
there is no sub fleet as you have elluded to, AA operates 5 type of a/c and ual ops 5 as well...

So, an ex-Shuttle 737-300 with 120 seats is the same as a non-Shuttle 737-500 with 104 seats, and on and on? Of course these are subfleets within the large A320 family, 737 family, 767 family, etc.

Further, even using the loosest definition of a "type of a/c," UA operates at least seven (A320 family, 737 family, 747, 757, 767, 777) and AA operates six (A300, MD80, 737, 757, 767, 777).


User currently offlineCTHEWORLD From Mayotte, joined Dec 2004, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6528 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 23):
Further, even using the loosest definition of a "type of a/c," UA operates at least seven (A320 family, 737 family, 747, 757, 767, 777) and AA operates six (A300, MD80, 737, 757, 767, 777).

And if AA flew to Sydney, Hong Kong, and Singapore etc... they would have the 747-400 also. That would be seven and seven...btw..UA's planes are all PW powered (including parts of the IAE)

Quoting Commavia (Reply 23):
So, an ex-Shuttle 737-300 with 120 seats is the same as a non-Shuttle 737-500 with 104 seats, and on and on?

Yep, just about perfect, if you take a -300 that is operating with the average load factor of 81% you have 96 pax comfortably accomodated in a -500. Plane leaves within :14 of scheduled departure, and everyone is happy (including those that got bumped up to first class)


25 Daron4000 : I don't have a single idea of what Commavia and AA757 are trying to get across. First of all, you compare TED to Continental's problem with product de
26 Commavia : I am not disputing UA's need for all those aircraft types, particularly the widebodies and even more particularly the 747s, I am simply stating that
27 CTHEWORLD : Summer 2000, ALPA, in order to get the contract they wanted brought UAL to a standstill with CHAOS like tactics...wasn't it called CREEP?
28 Commavia : Five? A319 A320 737 747 757 767 777 Yes, I know, the A319 and A320 are from the same family but again, they are operationally two different aircraft.
29 Post contains images UAMAYBACH1239 : Wrong! Operating these "subfleets" has no impact when it comes to MX. As a matter of fact this was the logic in having subfleets. The thought was to
30 Commavia : I know that the maintenance in 99% the same on the 777 Domestic vs. International, but operationally it is not.
31 Kahala777 : American Code-Shares Sydney with Qantas -American Airlines served Sydney with DC-10/707 American Code-Shares Hong Kong with Cathay Pacific/Japan Air
32 Post contains images Aa777jr : BURNED!
33 Jacobin777 : 1st..i would use them instead of a oneworld partner....2nd) they would have 777s for those routes.... given that they are going to china next year, a
34 CTHEWORLD : Non-stop? It isn't the same product if it isn't non-stop. Commavia - operationally, the A319 and A320 are identical, except for seat count. The same
35 Uadc8contrail : commavia, what is operationally different between the 319/320 and the 733/735??????the only thing i can come up with is the o.e.w. and fuel cap.....
36 Allstarflyer : Watch it . . . That was what I was thinking, too - the basic components necessary for swapping out parts would remain the same among the aircraft, fo
37 Avek00 : I think Mike Boyd summed up the truth on DH perfectly: "I-Air has just reported its latest results, and they're the financial equivalent of a coyote
38 Scotron11 : You could say the same about PanAm and TWA. Was it the ESOP? Was it the pilots? Was it 9/11? Or just a huge combination? I will leave it to other "exp
39 Post contains images Aa757first : Sorry, if the truth hurts... AAndrew
40 CTHEWORLD : With fuel factored in isn't I-Air CASM something like $0.21? Yikes, that isn't pretty! You are correct about doubling fares, or the other alternative,
41 Commavia : I think it was probably a confluence of all of these things at the same time, the proverbial "perfect storm" for airline financial disaster. Very tru
42 Post contains images BRAVO7E7 : Yeah, and all the F seats are filled by full fare paying passangers. Or Mr. Joe Hotshot decides he is missing out on MRTC, so he decides to get a new
43 Commavia : Two great ways for UA to cut down on operating costs, simplify its network and reduce expenses is to follow AA in two regards: 1. Depeaking hubs: UA d
44 Galapagapop : It may not be as much sub fleets and pilot training but the aircraft themselves. But different aircraft require different parts. Pilot costs are only
45 Kahala777 : Years and Years of taking the market, passengers, and employees for granted! Not to mention Management and its many lost chances to capitalize on mar
46 BRAVO7E7 : What are you talking about????????????
47 JeffM : Ain't that the truth. Why fly United from DEN when Frontier is there?
48 Kahala777 : Ask the many people that have left United Airlines for Frontier and there basic pricing system, frequent flier program, and outstanding service! Have
49 CTHEWORLD : Sorry, I meant for Sydney. A pax will choose non-stop -400 service over hop scotch service on a twin.
50 BRAVO7E7 : No. I can at least speak from the customer perspective. As a 1K, I am NOT treated like shit, and am MORE than happy with their service. If you want t
51 CTHEWORLD : Bravo- The Sky Nazi's earn their reputation every day! But if I were nominating anyone for unbearable service, it would be NorthWorst, except for the
52 Monteycarlos : IMO, its simple. They have been given chance after chance by bankruptcy protection laws when technically they are insolvent! Honestly, they didn't de
53 SHUPirate1 : Yep...those planes are so empty...if they actually were so empty, then why would I have a stack of voluntarily-denied-boarding vouchers in my room, c
54 Monteycarlos : Well you tell me something... if they are flying with decent loads why are they not making money? You think an airline that can't make money with dec
55 CTHEWORLD : So by your logic, US, CO and HP should be gone as well? They in Ch.11 playing patty cake, they are taking care of every last detail, which takes time
56 Post contains images BAW716 : I though for awhile that I would join this fray, but I am thinking better of it now. First, there is entirely too much UA bashing going on here. This
57 Commavia : I don't completely agree. You are partly right. No doubt, United's management, particularly under Goodwin, bears an enormous amount of responsibility
58 Mariner : BAW716: Why? To date the accumulated debt is aorund $15 billion. This includes shafted shareholders - both Wall Street and ESOP variety - creditors, s
59 Kahala777 : Good, there are a lot of people that are happy with United Airlines. If you were to re-read the post you would see that it had everything to do with
60 Uadc8contrail : Kahala777, some people will take a milk run to save some cash....biz travellers on the other hand will pay the premium to go non stop
61 MHTMDW : The ALPA's "summer from hell 2000" destroyed UAL. I flew United that summer...never since. The pilots made their bed, they can sleep in it. Its the re
62 Kahala777 : Is that why AA can operate a 767-200, and 767-300 with a three class configuration and UA is not? Is that why AA can operate 6 x 777-200 JFK to LHR a
63 Uadc8contrail : kahala777, put the pipe down ok.....i posted that biz travellers will pay a premium to go lets say from ord to hkg non stop vs flying ual thru nrt or
64 C680 : One word: ESOP
65 Uadc8contrail : C680, eflop was one of the reasons why ual is in deep kim chee today....alpa and the iam wanted nothing to do with john edwardson(remember him) and wa
66 Post contains images Mariner : Let us not forget the role played by Rono ("market share is better than profit") Datta. I see he's working his old magic over at Air Sahara - they ra
67 B737200300 : 9/11/2001 didn't help either.
68 Post contains images Kahala777 : To You? And when AA/CX enter the market? Regards - Kahala777
69 Post contains images Uadc8contrail : B737, ual management would like us to believe that 9-11 was the culprit...... and mariner you were correct about rono...godd riddance and wouldnt it b
70 Kahala777 : The problems leading to Bankruptcy started way.... before 9-11-01! Regards - Kahala777
71 B737200300 : UAD, that makes sense, I work with AWA, and all this cash that we are supposed to have on hand is supposed to make me feel good, I don't think buying
72 Baw716 : OK, I admit it, I am firmly in the camp that believes United should survive. Why? Perhaps I am just plain stupid (some of you will agree to that right
73 Mariner : I'm the one who asked "why", and "WHY NOT" isn't an answer, it is a clarion call of evasion. I repeat, to bring United to this point has cost $15 bil
74 BAW716 : Mariner, Let's try this: 1) The loss of some 70,000 jobs: About 10,000 in San Francisco, Chicago has to be at least that as well as other major cities
75 Mariner : Why did I say that was "my" solution? It isn't. I want to see United survive - especially at DEN - for all sorts of reasons, of which the most import
76 LufthanseatLAX : United is in the position that it's in for two reasons...first is bad management and second is the pilot stunt in the summer of 2000. Had it not been
77 Monteycarlos : Yep, exactly.
78 Baw716 : Mariner What you are asking is not WHY, but HOW. If that's what you are asking, then I would ask you to be patient. I am writing a reorganization plan
79 Post contains images Mariner : No, I'm not. I'm asking why. I'm asking someone - anyone - to do what Mr. Tilton nearly did. But didn't. Some months ago, when he was asking for yet
80 Post contains images Galapagapop : But unlike UA those carriers came up with buisness plans and executed them. HP completely moved over to the LCC format and is now making money. CO ha
81 BNE : I blame ACA; for Uniteds problems, if they weren't so greedy then they wouldn't have got so rich and decided to start their own airline when things go
82 Monteycarlos : Does anyone see things getting worse with the current round of "cheap" fares? I think this is part of the problem... perhaps UA should look to Contine
83 Avek00 : What are you talking about? United's problems began LONG before the dust-up with Air Wisconsin. And besides, United has been witnessing an IMPROVEMEN
84 Ckfred : There five things that contributed to the decline of UAL. These aren't necessarily in chronological order. 1. The ESOP. The idea of employee ownership
85 Commavia : I agree that the FA self-imposed exclusion from the deal contributed to its failure, but I disagree that the idea "isn't bad" in principle. I think t
86 Slider : The failed US merger also points out a pathology that has existed at UAL for decades: United the BULLY. They've bullied EVERYONE for years, whether it
87 BAW716 : Mariner I have told you why and I've told you how. and still...you don't get it. You still say noone has given you the reason as to why United should
88 Post contains images Aerofan : Oh I don't know - I think it was handing out all of those free upgrades and free tickets to business men, who never paid the full fare anyhow. And not
89 Mariner : BAW716: What I am looking for is a vision. You have communicated detail, and plans. You have given me all sorts of reasons why United should survive (
90 Scotron11 : What is this "saved" United going to be that is different from all the other airlines? Very true, if you can distinguish yourself as a stand alone pr
91 BigB : The answer Mariner is looking for isn't results if UAL was the fail. Everyone already knows what will happen, jobs losts will happen thus will hurt th
92 Post contains images N62NA : I just discovered how UAL ended up in such bad shape - and the answer came from the "Newark Soars..." post! They ignored EWR!
93 Wedgetail737 : This answer is easy...irresponsible CEO's!
94 UA772IAD : I see this being a valid point, simply because United doesn't have enough aircraft ready to go to simply replace one with another, all the time. They
95 UA772IAD : I concur, fully. I completely disagree. If people are looking to save that much, than they probably can't afford it anyways. Also, if the difference
96 Kahala777 : No, Continental Airlines ran United Airlines right out of the market. All United has left in the Newark market is IAD, ORD, DEN, LAX, and SFO. Less w
97 UA772IAD : Which is too bad, because both of those would be huge money makers for their INT'L expansion. Note, that the EWR-NRT has been switched to JFK, which
98 Kahala777 : Yes, another brilliant move on the part of United Airlines Management! Regards - Kahala777
99 UAcsOKC : Wow, that should be easy. It's because people will fly someone else for 10 dollars less. There is no brand loyalty these days, just shoppers who want
100 Post contains images BigB : No answers yet
101 Monteycarlos : I could not disagree anymore with that! Take CO for example... when things were going tough and Lorenzo was still there what was the answer? Simple..
102 Baw716 : Mariner Now that I understand what you are looking for....I can see completely what you are saying...and you would be right. For all the reasons I hav
103 Post contains images Mariner : BAW716: I was wondering when I'd hear from you - I was fairly sure I would. Yes. The "vision" come first. How can you possibly decide what to do until
104 Ckfred : Back in the days of regulation, many airlines owned hotels. Pan Am owned Inter-Continetal. TWA owned Hilton International. American owned Americana. U
105 Post contains images BAW716 : Thanks Mariner Since you are an airline analyst, would you mind giving me an opinion about my reorganization plan once I've completed it? baw716 ps --
106 Avek00 : It wasn't switched to JFK - the JFK-NRT flight had been running alongside the EWR flight, and then EWR was just cancelled.
107 Mariner : BAW176: I'm not an airline analyst - I am an airline nut. I've been around civil aviation since (literally) Day 1 of my life, I have flown on just abo
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