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Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?  
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8726 times:

As I watched the reports come in on the 787 and A350 programs I began to think about the LOT and EK orders that will soon be placed. In your opinion, which order is more important or carries greater technical merit?

I believe that Boeing winning the LOT order is a greater win. The fact that the Boeing product has been reported as winning an order in an EU stronghold is interesting. It might just show that the technical and economic merit of the 787 family makes the competition not even close. Much like AF ordering 777s, I believe that the better aircraft is ahead in this competition.

As for the EK order, I believe it is important but not as far reaching. EK has been a loyal Airbus customer and an extremely large operator of many varieties, in my opinion, this order actually hamstrings Airbus as they are now forced to go with what they are offering. So far, only EK seems to be buying.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
111 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3514 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8714 times:

6 frames or 50 frames? I would take 50.

User currently onlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5041 posts, RR: 44
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8699 times:

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
I believe that Boeing winning the LOT order is a greater win. The fact that the Boeing product has been reported as winning an order in an EU stronghold is interesting.

LOT has never bought an Airbus in the past, them buying Boeing now is hardly a surprise. And it has been reported that there has been political pressure from BOTH sides for this order.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8653 times:

CX747, I don't think any single order is 'important' - what matters is the total of orders and commitments.

However, I entirely agree that the 787's general progress, in Europe and elsewhere, suggests that it is rapidly becoming the aeroplane that airlines simply cannot do without.

And that the fact that a single airline looks like accounting for 30% of Airbus' order book for the A380, and 85% of that for the A350, makes Airbus' whole 'business case' look frighteningly exposed.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineGalapagapop From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 910 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8628 times:

I would say LOT order as it would be the first real European order for Boeing. 50 frames is a lot but Emirates has yet to be a tough customer of one manufactuer, they just sway with the price tag sadly..

User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3768 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8602 times:

I would say the EK A350 order would be, it would be the first A350 major order!

Rob!


User currently offlineCrosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2601 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8597 times:
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Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 4):
I would say LOT order as it would be the first real European order for Boeing

Do these not count?

First Choice Airways 6 (UK)
Blue Panorama 4 (Italy)
Icelandair 2 (Iceland)

Regards
CROSSWIND


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8577 times:

It never ceases to amaze me how a 50 plane order by, except of the A32Xs that they're replacing with B737NGs, loyal-Boeing-customer ANA for the B787 is described as a "major breakthrough", while a (rumored) 50 plane order by Emirates, an airline that orders from both manufacturers, is basically called "no surprise"...

I'm quite certain that the same people now basically saying that an order for A350s by EK is "less important" would be dancing in the streets if the same rumor were about EK ordering B787s...

Nonetheless - as Scorpio already mentioned, LOT has never operated Airbusses; they've been operating Boeings for quite a while now, and if they're happy with them, why should they switch to Airbus?

But I agree with NAV20's assessment that Airbus seems, at least currently, quite dependant on EK's success - while I certainly hope that it works out for EK and Airbus, I do hope that Airbus will be able to broaden it's customer base for both families.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlinePiedmontnut From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8519 times:

This thread could go south quickly...  ill 

To me both are equally important. I am sure both Airbus and Boeing would consider them as such, no...



May the A380 arrive @ MCO in the near future.
User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3682 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8472 times:

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 4):
50 frames is a lot but Emirates has yet to be a tough customer of one manufactuer, they just sway with the price tag sadly..

Wait wait ...

For weeks, We're told by some people that the 787 is way cheaper than the A350.


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8423 times:

EK went with the A350 because it's bigger.

User currently offlineLHMARK From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 7255 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8380 times:

I think the two orders are mutually exclusive, and there's really no way to compare them win-for-win. There is certainly enough demand for airframes in the world transport market to carry two large manufacturers, and each individual company will buy what suits them.

EK is probably in a position to offer a great deal of input into the development of the A350. Who can blame them for jumping at the chance to buy a fleet they can deeply customize to their needs?



"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8344 times:

I think that NAV stated my idea to a better extent. Both orders are important for different reasons, I just think that the LOT order carries more weight due to the pressures etc that took place/taking place there.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12795 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8278 times:
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Quoting CX747 (Reply 13):
I think that NAV stated my idea to a better extent. Both orders are important for different reasons, I just think that the LOT order carries more weight due to the pressures etc that took place/taking place there.

So ask Boeing which, if they could only have one, would they chose? 6 planes for LOT, or 50 for Emirates? I think I know what their answer would be! The weight of the $s significantly outweighs any perceived 'political' win.  sarcastic 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8255 times:

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
I believe that Boeing winning the LOT order is a greater win. The fact that the Boeing product has been reported as winning an order in an EU stronghold is interesting.

Sure, winning six orders is better than 50...  sarcastic 
Btw, the "EU stronghold" airline has never ever operated a single Airbus aircraft, plus the "EU stronghold" is one of GWB's best buddies. Poland did not go to Iraq just for fun - so they might get both sweet deals on military and civil products from their big friends in return.

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
It might just show that the technical and economic merit of the 787 family makes the competition not even close.

LOT's order shows about as much as Blue Panorama's or Icelandair's.  Wink
Say NWA or Korean and I might agree.

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
As for the EK order, I believe it is important but not as far reaching. EK has been a loyal Airbus customer and an extremely large operator of many varieties,

EK also has been a loyal Boeing 777 customer, they are one of the world's largest operators with 21 aircraft in service and another 30 on order.

In contrary, EK's order is indeed far reaching, because the world's airlines look up at Emirates and not down at LOT. Sorry, that's how they compare in international importance.

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
in my opinion, this order actually hamstrings Airbus as they are now forced to go with what they are offering. So far, only EK seems to be buying.

The A350's design is not frozen yet. We still haven't seen many details. And there's probably much room left for improvement, we don't know. With EK as a major customer, all gets easier for Airbus.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
However, I entirely agree that the 787's general progress, in Europe and elsewhere, suggests that it is rapidly becoming the aeroplane that airlines simply cannot do without.

So then all airlines will order the B787?  Wink

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
And that the fact that a single airline looks like accounting for 30% of Airbus' order book for the A380, and 85% of that for the A350, makes Airbus' whole 'business case' look frighteningly exposed.

I would say having such commitments from one of the financial most stabile and fastest growing airlines in the world is something they can be happy about.

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 4):
I would say LOT order as it would be the first real European order for Boeing.

And Italy and the UK don't count?  confused 

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 4):
50 frames is a lot but Emirates has yet to be a tough customer of one manufactuer, they just sway with the price tag sadly..

EK could afford any airplane they want - so be sure they don't go for the cheapest available option but the one which helps to secure their future growth.

Quoting Spike (Reply 9):
Its about the same as Eithiopian being the launch customer. Who gives a damn? Are they going to globally promote this like EK can?

Exactly. In comparison to Emirates, LOT is not really relevant.

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 12):
I think that NAV stated my idea to a better extent. Both orders are important for different reasons, I just think that the LOT order carries more weight due to the pressures etc that took place/taking place there.

I would suggest EK's order carries MUCH more weight:

1. No political pressure on Emirates - they simply go for the plane which they want
2. Political pressure on Poland
3. EK's order is for 50 aircraft, not just five or six.
4. EK's worldwide reputation gives the A350 order major significance



Regards
Udo


User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1127 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8246 times:

The EK order is pivotal. If Boeing won that the outlook for the A350 would be Grim. The LOT order is nice. But this for all intents and purposes is the A350 "launch" order.

It does give Airbus a frighteningly high degree of exposure to EK's fortunes. With so much of both the A380 and the A350 dependent on one airline, unrest other problems could seriously impact EADS.

It might have been better for airbus to consider this design more towards competing better against the 787, but with this order the "larger" design is now the rule. It should do well against the 772 though.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8192 times:

Do we happen to have actual articles from world renowned publications stating that either of these airlines has in fact publicly stated their intentions?


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8165 times:

A big launch customer is IMO or important then a LOT order for 6.

Numbers don´t sy everything. IMO the NWA order for 18 aicraft is more valuable for Boeing then the Korean, Canadian and all leisure carriers combined.


User currently offlineLHMARK From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 7255 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8126 times:

Udo, that's weird, the quote box says you're quoting me, but that's someone else's post. -LHMark


"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8104 times:

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 19):
Udo, that's weird, the quote box says you're quoting me, but that's someone else's post. -LHMark

Mark, I'm sorry for the misquoting. The quote should show CX747, but somehow it got changed!


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8090 times:

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 19):
Mark, I'm sorry for the misquoting. The quote should show CX747, but somehow it got changed!

As you can see, that can happen quite easily: the quote above is from Udo's post, but it says LHMARK: if you quote something, be sure to press the "QUOTE SELECTED TEXT" button of the post that you're quoting - what I did here was I selected the text in Udo's post but used the button in LHMARK's post...



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3691 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7956 times:

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 10):
For weeks, We're told by some people that the 787 is way cheaper than the A350.

I keep reading the 350 is listed at $190 million and the 787 at $120 million. Is this incorrect?


User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7931 times:

Mham001

Surely you are right.
Do not forget the A350 is larger , and is NOT really the same size airplane , since it has been launched to compete with the 787 , and also to replace the 777-200ER.
So obviously it's normal the 787 is cheaper than the A350.


User currently offlineCahiwa From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7916 times:

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
in my opinion, this order actually hamstrings Airbus as they are now forced to go with what they are offering.

I am assuming Airbus has many bright people who have looked at the A350/787 market and decided the business case for the A350 is only solid once commitments reach X. All the while realizing committing to it also saps resources from future product development. I hope Airbus says forget the A350 and does a true competitor to the 787. I guarantee folks at Boeing are hoping otherwise. Just me being a Sunday afternoon economist.
 twocents  Ciao for now.. K


User currently offlineJet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 877 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7887 times:

A 50 frame order is better than a 6 frame order. Long-term potential and past preferences notwithstanding, either A or B would prefer the order with more planes coz that means more money now.

25 Mham001 : What I'm not understanding is the apparent $70 million dollar price difference for 20-30 seats?? Do you know the list price for 772-ER?
26 CX747 : Emirates is now denying this order and stating that all options are still on the table and being considered.
27 PHXinterrupted : No kidding. I would be nervous by the fact that about one-third of my 380 orders are from one airline, which is also the only airline that appears to
28 Post contains images Milan320 : Udo, don't be so sure we will get much in return. As I've mentioned numerous times in past threads, the promised off-sets from the F-16 sale have not
29 Cloudy : To answer the original question - it all depends on whether Emirates is going to be successfull with their huge growth plans. It is possible they may
30 ComeAndGo : It's in Airbus's best interest if Boeing wins both orders. At least Airbus could regroup and come up with a good product for us all. Why would Poland
31 BlueSky1976 : I do. JAL? Puhleeeze... BA or Air France - that's more like it. Either one could go either way... Qantas? They're happy with A330 on their long-haul
32 ComeAndGo : how about Qantas Australia to UK?
33 Post contains images Zvezda : Poland an EU stronghold?!?!? Have you ever been to Poland? Have you paid attention to the abusive way the French and German governments publically sp
34 Udo : Because Poland is one of Germany's most important trading partners? Wow, what an argument. Most people don't mix up today's Germany and Germany 60 ye
35 QantasA380 : Yeah, they count!!!! And what about AF's B777s, BA's B777s, all the B747s and B767, and all those B737s (they're everywhere in Europe!!)...????
36 Post contains images Andreas : And neither have you, it seems, reading this post of yours! And I wonder: Have you ever been to Germany or France????? No definitely not, so stop pos
37 Post contains images Zvezda : The best example would be over Poland's support for the American war against Iraq. Schroeder was somewhat diplomatic in his condescesion. Chirac was
38 Udo : Which contradicts what you said earlier. You were talking about "German airplane". Regards Udo
39 Sebolino : I fail to see the relation with buying an Airbus.
40 Zvezda : No it doesn`t. Do you know the word "hypothetical"? I'm well aware that Junkers and Messerschmidt don't make airplanes anymore, but many Poles I know
41 Cornish : Agreed, otherwise why would the Czechs, Belgians, Danes, Norwegians, Greeks, etc buy Airbuses either ? We've all moved on in Europe these days......
42 Monteycarlos : They are denying that they have placed an order... No source I saw actually said that EK had committed themselves to the A350 with a firm order, but
43 Udo : Ok, let me see...who talked about the "abusive way the French and German governments publically speak about the Polish government"? And later the sam
44 Cornish : Udo is right - Additionly you could say "And Britain doesn't manufacture a very significant part of Airbus aircraft then" ??? I seem to recall that P
45 Greaser : But if one had a choice between a large base of potential (by securing as many customers as possible) or a large single order, i think it's smart to
46 DutchFlyer : All orders are political. It involves national pride on both the buyer and seller side. A and B produce equal high quality planes but one (A or B) se
47 Atmx2000 : Well, they weren't too hot on the alliance with Russia, but the US was part of that as well.
48 L410Turbolet : I don't know about you, but my calendar says May 2005 not 1945. Wasn't it also beacuse someone played this "let's split Europe" game with maps in Yal
49 Kuba74 : Zvezda, it seems to me you are pretty prejudiced against Germany and Germans. Udo is right, Germany is Poland's most important trading partner, and o
50 Post contains images Andreas : Ah so that's what you are referring to...ok I agree. Both, Schroeder and Chirac should have shut up, period! But I'm still waiting for those abusive
51 Post contains images DAYflyer : Although I am a fan of Boeing, I agree that a 50 frame order is a significant step forward for this Airbus program; it is the rough equivelant to the
52 Cornish : Absolutely. 50 aircraft is significant no matter how many sales have already been made. Also lets not forget that EK is THE airline that is making la
53 NAV20 : What probably counts more than orders is the feedback Airbus are getting from their sales force. If they are saying things look good, more orders will
54 Sebolino : The Emirates site says exactly this: Fast-growing Emirates airline is in talks with The Boeing Co. for its 787 jetliner, but even a planned stretch ve
55 Post contains links Torch23 : For what it's worth, The Seattle Times reported last week that Boeing has accepted a proposal from Qatar for 10 787s. Here's the link: http://seattlet
56 Post contains images Andreas : So you're a Boeing fan...ok, noted. Which means for some non-existing reason you don't like Airbus or at least you believe their aircraft are of less
57 Milan320 : ComeAndGo - read some history my friend. Who sold out Poland and the other Eastern European countries at Yalta??? - don't know. Roosevelt and Churchi
58 Milan320 : As already Udo mentioned, and he's right, Germany is one of Poland's most important partners. As for the French, just check the French Foreign Minist
59 BrightCedars : The LOT order is insignificant. From an operator that has a tiny long haul fleet and that may hopefully double that in the duration of the 787 program
60 Post contains images Eatmybologna : Andreas, your reply is not what he stated. He did not trash Airbus in his last post. You should stop making false assumptions. He only stated that he
61 ComeAndGo : They do. Wake up. Why do you think America buys American. Not because it's better. Go to your southerly neighbor, Switzerland, explain me why you see
62 ComeAndGo : Are you saying Airbüs is French? What have the French done? Except donating land for the facility and providing a French boss.
63 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : As does the US. Donating money sorry couldnt resist.
64 Monteycarlos : Am I missing something here? What does Daimler Chrysler have to do with Airbus?
65 ComeAndGo : What you're forgetting over and over is that for the western world WWII ended sometime in the mid 40's. For Eastern Europe it ended 1990. Czech repub
66 ComeAndGo : Absolutely right. The 787 is brand new hight tech. The A350 is an update.
67 ComeAndGo : They own 30% of Airbus. It used to be called DASA and used to be a subsidiary of Daimler Benz. Now it's more murky. DASA and Aerospaciale of France m
68 ComeAndGo : Are you serious? or is this a joke? When Airbus built the A320 and A330/340 and A380 they took their time, did some research, consulted with Airlines
69 Cornish : Well I lived and worked in Hungary in the mid-90s for two years and was a student in East Berlin in 1992. And in my work I have dealt with many many
70 Post contains images L410Turbolet : It's great to have an opinion but checking the facts is useful as well. Independence lost in 1620 regained 1918. Suffering? If this country is suffer
71 Post contains images Udo : Funny. The US is Germany's most important trading partner outside Europe. No non-European country gets more imports from Germany than the US... Becau
72 Zvezda : All I did was observe that prejudice exists. The observation of prejudice doesn't make the observer prejudiced.
73 Toulouse : So, Mr. Statistics and Facts of all... how many eastern Europeans have you surveyed to come to this astounding conclusion? You know, one could go dow
74 DAYflyer : Hardly the case at all. If you read my previous paragraphs of the post, I make it very clear that an A-350 order from EK is as important to Airbus as
75 ComeAndGo : the third MOST important airline in Spain out of a total of three. Wow. You know, if Lufthansa, Swiss, Air France and maybe Iberia had some orders yo
76 Toulouse : I won't even bother answering you LOT767-300ER. Read what you want in to what I posted. I know what I wanted to say, and that's all that matters.
77 Lemurs : Uhm actually, no. What matters is what other people understand you to be saying. This is how communications work. If you mean something, but others u
78 USAF336TFS : Clearly, if EK doesn't order the A350, the program is all but dead. It's a must win for Airbus. That being said, even if they do order the A350, with
79 Toulouse : Thanks Lemurs. Thanks Lot 767-300ER... Forgive me for "spoutin" crap again. Ok, maybe a read a little too deep into what he said, and I believe only
80 Post contains images Udo : How can you know? No, but when we talk about history of Eastern European countries in the 20th century, we MUST also see Stalin's faults. Go elsewher
81 NYC777 : Ok, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off topic aren't we? Back to our regularly schedule programming.... both the LO and EK orders are significant for both manufactur
82 ComeAndGo : It doesn't change that they're not going to buy 100 plus A350 from Airbus. You like to emphasize that Air Europa is a big (or bigger) airline. To me
83 ComeAndGo : After you acknowledge the ones that threw the first punch. The one that started wasn't Stalin.
84 Lemurs : That's true, and I do agree that it seems people are taking his statements out of context a bit. My point was more to emphasize that what he said abo
85 Post contains images Udo : I don't think it's relevant to anyone how you personally rate that airline... No it won't. But UX won't remain the one and only customer. Regards Udo
86 Udo : If you follow Germany's official way of dealing with history you will note that NOTHING has been ignored about the dark past. That's also my way of t
87 L410Turbolet : ComeAndGo, Actually I did. I hate to quote myself but since you did such an excellent job apparently reading only half of what I wrote - the one that
88 NYC777 : Can we all please get back to the topic! Which order is more important, LOT 787 or EK A350?
89 ComeAndGo : since when does the major of Singelfinger influence Daimler Chrysler's business strategy. It was Mr Schremp and no else who decided to buy or merge (
90 AM744 : A350's very existence might be in the hands of EK. That and the size of the order per se leads me to think that EK's decision is way more important th
91 Post contains images Eatmybologna : I completely concur with you Dayflyer & USAF366TFS. The way I see it is that Airbus is in a lose/lose situation, either way. I have a lot of respect f
92 ComeAndGo : Sorry for creating this mess. For to political reason which I won't reveal, I think LOT will buy 787.
93 Udo : As a mayor of a mid-sized German city, he didn't influence it, of course. But he could tell you what it means getting no more tax money from Daimler.
94 NYC777 : Not much strategic value in the LOT order for the 787...more European pride than anything else (buy European not American is what the EU is telling t
95 ComeAndGo : Sorry, here we go again: Gestapo is that Russian or German? And Wehrmacht? WW2 started with Germany, not Russia. "ALSO Stalin", doesn't change much.
96 ComeAndGo : They bought an American car manufacturer with the third largest market share in the US.
97 Toulouse : Good morning friends. Thanks Lemurs... glad to see you weren't trying to pick on me! I didn't really say "what I meant versus what I said", but rather
98 Post contains images Udo : Oh, Stalin "does not change much"? I get the impression you left out some important history lessons in school... Certainly we have to see causaliy of
99 L410Turbolet : OK, then why he invaded Finland, the Baltic countries and jumped into Poland's back simultaneously with the advancing Wehrmacht? Fighting on two fron
100 Cornish : Exactly Russia invaded Poland in agreement with Germany and split the country in two. It was only when Germany invaded Russia in 1941 that they joine
101 ComeAndGo : Ja Ja, it was se major of Singelfinger.
102 ComeAndGo : Germany invaded on Sep 1, 1939. Russia invaded Sep 17, 1939 after England and France declare war on Germany. So how did Russia invade first and in ag
103 Post contains images Kahala777 : Since these airlines may or may not be around.. No! Less you forget that the dream, illusional airline Primaris is on the 787 list! Correct.. Emirate
104 L410Turbolet : ComeAndGo, are you a lawyer or something? I mean you seem to be the king of taking people's sentences out of context and twisting them around. When he
105 ER757 : I agree with all your points, however the reason I'm quoting this part is that while Emirates is a real, existing carrier, could there be some illusi
106 Post contains images Kahala777 : Primaris was founded by the same yutz that pulled America West in Bankruptcy in the early 1990's! And more recently National Airlines from Bankruptcy
107 Sonic67 : The A350 order Is significant because it will most likely will be the launch order and save the project.
108 ComeAndGo : There's all the money in world for Emirates. It's backed by the country. Like Sony, it's run by a British manager. But their order for the A350 might
109 ER757 : People Express was too - they over-expanded and went belly-up. I'm not saying EK will do the same but their pending order for the A350/787 is based o
110 ComeAndGo : Doesn't change the fact that Germany attacked Poland. If you want an analogy, look at the Iraq war. Who went in? The US, UK and a few more. So now yo
111 LOT767-300ER : The game was started 250 years earlier, this was just a continuance, and the game started both with Russia, Prussia (Germany) and Austria. Stalin was
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