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RDU Seeking West Coast, European Flights  
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6763 posts, RR: 17
Posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4896 times:

Here's the article.. Triangle Business Journal

Basically, what it says is what everybody already knows..

RDU is beginning round table discussions with the airlines to add these services.

RDU is looking for flights to LA, Bay area, Denver, Paris, and Frankfurt..

According to the study, the LA-RDU route has about 376,000 annual passengers. The likely candidates for this service: AA or WN.

Bay-RDU has about 255,000 annual passengers. The likely candidates for this service: WN (OAK), AA (SJC), UA (SFO).

DEN-RDU has about 168,000 annual passengers. The likely candidates for this service: UA or F9. It was also noted "United Express operated a direct flight between the two locations using a regional jet for several months before discontinuing it in late fall 2004. The airline decided to scuttle the flight because the regional jet wasn't large enough to be cost efficient, Damiano says."

A possible candidate which got left out was B6, which could possibly do a non-stop to each of those areas from RDU by doing a 1 daily A320 RDU-LGB/OAK/DEN, a 4 daily E90 RDU-JFK, and a 3 daily E90 RDU-BOS. RDU is currently holding 3 gates for a new carrier entrance. Seems like a good mold, but who knows.

Other obvious news.. New York is the top market, with a million people traveling between RDU and the airports in that area each year. Atlanta is the No. 2 market, with 662,000 passengers a year. Boston, Chicago and Washington, D.C., each have about 500,000 passengers traveling between them and RDU each year.


Aiming High and going far..
65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCltguy From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4803 times:

No surprises here...so which airline with no money is going to take the plunge at RDU?

User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4773 times:

I would think frontier or United would go back after the RDU market. For Frontier it would be about having enough planes for the market. A major plus for the Denver routing, is that they can offer a pretty good midpoing for connections through to the west coast as well. 2 A319's a day would be nice. As for United, they have seemingly given up on providing mainline service into RDU, but perhaps they may consider a TED route starting around the skiing season.


Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDCAYOW From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 602 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4767 times:

RDU would be best to thank its stars that it has service to LGW. Diluting the European market is not a good idea, just look at the experience of PHX - a market a fair bit larger than RDU.

I could see LH entertaining a BBJ Privatair service for the pharma traffic, but other than that - ain't going to happen.



Retorne ao céu...
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4735 times:

RDU-CDG ? Whyyyyy ?? Where's the market ? Admittedly it would be useful for me personally, as my brother is moving to RDU shortly, and if AA want to lay on a 777 just for my use, I'll be happy as Larry, but I can't see it happening myself.

User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4550 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4689 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
RDU is looking for flights to LA, Bay area, Denver, Paris, and Frankfurt..

I will be honestly impressed if they pull off teh CDG or FRA routes. Here in IND we have a market rapidly approaching 2 million and O/D of 8 million and we have yet to land a route like that. If RDU can land one of those two routes that would be a big win for them.

I go back and re-read the post and I don't see where they bring up CDG or FRA.

[Edited 2005-05-09 16:50:36]


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6763 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4672 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 5):
I go back and re-read the post and I don't see where they bring up CDG or FRA.

The air service study also looked at possible international destinations, with Frankfurt, Germany, emerging as the top target. The study forecasts that about 270 people would travel between RDU and Frankfurt each way per day. The international projections aren't based solely on historical data as are the domestic travel projections.

Another European option could be Paris. The study projected a nonstop flight to the City of Lights would draw 150 passengers each way per day. American Airlines previously operated a flight to Paris but discontinued that service in the 1990s.


Quoting DCAYOW (Reply 3):
I could see LH entertaining a BBJ Privatair service for the pharma traffic, but other than that - ain't going to happen.

That sounds like a good idea to me. LH do the BBJ to FRA and AF do a ABJ to CDG.. wonder how much those flights would cost? Also, do the BBJ/ABJ have normal seating, bed seats, luxury couchs? How many seats do they offer.. just wondering.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 2):
As for United, they have seemingly given up on providing mainline service into RDU,

My thinking exactly.. RDU has 2 or 3 hopes to DEN.. F9, AA, DL.. perhaps if they do right, they can ask US.. As for LA, there are 5 hopes.. AA, DL, WN, B6, HP.. only time will tell.



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4550 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4650 times:

Crap. I didn't see the page 1, 2 thing at the bottom of the story. Sorry bout that.  Smile


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineTravisNC From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4500 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 5):
Here in IND we have a market rapidly approaching 2 million and O/D of 8 million and we have yet to land a route like that. If RDU can land one of those two routes that would be a big win for them.

Well, to be fair to RDU, it does have higher O&D than IND. That's not to say I think they'll get either of these flights. US Airways couldn't make CDG work from CLT or PIT and they had tons of feed at those airports. I don't see why LAX, SAN/SJC, and DEN can't work though. Just look at the numbers in the article. LAX is the airport with the largest O&D that RDU doesn't have service to. And, as far as I can tell RDU is the airport with the most O&D that LAX doesn't have service to (excluding LGA, which is perimeter restricted).


User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3125 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4468 times:

You know ... i would have never expected SLC and LGW for RDU... so i wish them good luck with the rest...

ps didnt UA already try DEN-RDU awhile back? I don't see too much chance of that happening seeing as DEN-CLT has CR7s on it, and CLT is a star alliance hub...

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6763 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4445 times:

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 9):
ps didnt UA already try DEN-RDU awhile back? I don't see too much chance of that happening seeing as DEN-CLT has CR7s on it, and CLT is a star alliance hub...

UAX did try DEN-RDU with CR7 service 2x daily.. but you are right, it did not work...

First, the flights were always oversold.. Second, the flights were always weight restricted.. Third, the flights were too long to be on a CR7. Fourth, the flights were delayed more than they were scheduled. Fifth, US already has 3 daily flights (319/320) and UA has 3 daily flights (733/319/CR7). I think that is a plenty.. All RDU need is 2 daily on something larger than a CR7 that won't be weight restricted and delayed every day.



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 61
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4430 times:

The only route of all of these that AA would possibly jump at would be RDU-LAX, probably with a daily 738. Even this, however, is doubtful as AA can serve the market pretty well with connections over DFW. RDU's best chance for any nonstop service to the West Coast is obviously WN, who could definitely have success with flights to PHX, LAX, LAS, OAK, etc.

In addition, I think RDU's hopes of any more service to Europe are pretty optimistic. AA RDU-LGW has that market covered very well, as most European traffic to and from RDU is to London, and service to CDG or FRA would just be too thin and too light. If anything, I think the LH BBJ idea to FRA would probably work, but even that would be a stretch.


User currently offlineGilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3014 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4377 times:

I can't see RDU getting anymore European traffic but I with them good luck.

I appreciate RDU maybe quite a major city in the US but over in Europe I doubt the majority of people have even heard of the city let alone know what it's famous for or why it's worth visiting.

It's a bot like comparing Raleigh in the US with Sheffield or Hull two major cities in the UK but not all that well known to people from outside the country.

I have always been surprised that RDU as been able to host a daily service to LGW let alone them using a 777. But from what I understand this flight is heavily subsidised or utilised by a well known medical company. For people living in the Raleigh area they should be able to take advantage of this serivce to Europe and connect at LGW onto BA services to Europe through the One World Alliance that AA is a member of.

Another service which has always surprised me is the services from CLT to LGW and FRA with US Airways as this is another one of the USA's lesser known cities to outsiders. But I think as US Airways operates a major hub out of CLT many of the passengers are connecting to onwards destinations in the US.

How does AA's connecting services at RDU compare to US Airways services out of CLT?


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32731 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4373 times:

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 12):

How does AA's connecting services at RDU compare to US Airways services out of CLT?

They offer very little connections through Raleigh. It is O&D-focused focus city. Most of the RDU-LGW traffic is O&D, with some connections from Miami, to keep the low-yielding passengers off of the LHR non-stops, and they'll send passengers from Dallas if the DFW flights go oversold. There is almost always space on the flight in coach.



a.
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4359 times:

RDU and SJC are the only two operations in the American Airlines system with single, hallmark routes. For Raleigh it is London. For San Jose it is Tokyo. These routes exist due to contracts that have been preset and insure that AA will not be loosing money!


Regards - Kahala777


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6763 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4326 times:

Tis true.. Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, and Cary are not well known globally.. I think that Research Triangle Park is well known globally though.. not as well known as GeneTown (Boston), but still very well known throughout the European business community, Japanese business community, Indian business community, Chinese business community, etc..

Saying that.. I think that the most RDU is looking for is a _x weekly to either Paris or Frankfurt..

The main focus is to get some west coast flights.. the others were just added as additional information and should be regarded as such..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4304 times:

Strange RDU is not looking for non-stop flights to MBJ with JM or SAL/SJO with TA... maybe not daily but 3-4 times per week.


I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32731 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4301 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 15):

Saying that.. I think that the most RDU is looking for is a _x weekly to either Paris or Frankfurt..

It doesn't work like that unless it is a leisure market. It needs to be 6x weekly at least, maybe five times, but nothing less. If a business market cannot support daily service, then it really isn't worth it for a European airline to go through the expense of a new station.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 16):
Strange RDU is not looking for non-stop flights to MBJ with JM or SAL/SJO with TA... maybe not daily but 3-4 times per week.

It is not strange at all. Air Jamaica is in a terrible financial situation and is in no position to start Raleigh and there is no market for flights to San Salvador or San Jose. Mexicana would be more logical.



a.
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4293 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Air Jamaica is in a terrible financial situation and is in no position to start Raleigh and there is no market for flights to San Salvador or San Jose. Mexicana would be more logical

I agree about Air Jamaica, maybe if they were in good shape...
About Centralamerica from RDU, there's growing salvadorean community in North Carolina and of course the usual leisure traffic from the USA to Costa Rica.. If TA has not started ATL from SJO, it's very unlikely they'll venture to RDU or CLT.. Sure they think "passengers from North Carolina fly TA via IAD or MIA"



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2285 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 14):
RDU and SJC are the only two operations in the American Airlines system with single, hallmark routes. For Raleigh it is London. For San Jose it is Tokyo. These routes exist due to contracts that have been preset and insure that AA will not be loosing money

also to note, these routes came about when both cities were AA hubs back in the late 80's to mid 90's


User currently offlineRDUDDJI From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1472 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4194 times:

The West Coast (LAX/SFO) will happen eventually. I'd love to see UA come back and fly these markets (plus they can add conxn opportunites in both cities). While they are at it, they can bring mainline service from DEN. Most carriers are not in good enough shape to add new transcon markets right now and RDU really doesn't have much in the way of gate space with all the construction going on...

I don't see RDU getting service to CDG ever again, but FRA is a definate possibility. I heard rumors a few years ago (early 2001ish) that AA was looking into this route. Obviously the market (and the whole airline indistry) has changed since then.



Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6763 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4142 times:

LA, BAY, and DEN will happen (+/- 1 yea).. CUN will happen also..

Like I said, the only airlines that could do any of these services are F9 (DEN/CUN) and B6 (LGB/OAK) when they enter RDU. RDU would do very well to approach B6 about the LGB/OAK flight.. B6 is stronger financially, and are more likely to do such routes than any legacy. If WN hasn't done it by now, I don't know if they would... they tried SAN and it didn't work.. would they try again with LA?



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4110 times:

To hit on a few points from above,
RDU is probably not well known outside of the United states,
but, the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, and Duke University probably are.
Red Hat, IBM, Nortel, Cisco, GlaxoSmithKline, Bayer, Erikkson, Quintiles, Wyeth, Probably are.
Not to say that these are a good reason for overseas markets, but some are.

However all of these, plus a region that is growing at 2-3%(25000-35000) a year, is a good reason to add flights to the west coast.

The Bay area, Los angeles, and Denver could easily sustain flights now. Delta obviously needed to route more passengers to SLC, so they have added that flight, in order to help some of the west bounds. But American, and WN could really put it to delta , by providing the needed destinations direct.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32731 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4011 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 21):
. RDU would do very well to approach B6 about the LGB/OAK flight.. B6 is stronger financially, and are more likely to do such routes than any legacy.

They are not likely at all to start those routes.

Oakland and Long Beach work from Lauderdale, Boston, New York City, and DC because they are such huge O&D markets...they can support the alternative. They also have a huge amount of leisure traffic. Raleigh-LA/San Fran are not that large to support to the alternatives and are too business-market oriented. Southwest could make RDU-OAK work, but jetBlue wouldn't. And jetBlue is not going to waste precious LGB slots on an RDU service.

If ever, LAX service will come on AA, SFO on United, or OAK on Southwest.



a.
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4550 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3996 times:

Quoting TravisNC (Reply 8):
Well, to be fair to RDU, it does have higher O&D than IND

Yes they do. But only slightly more. We are comparing 8.6 to 8.0 for 2004. The 600,000 margin is less than 2003 and so far in 2005 the margin is even less. The difference is statistically insignificant.

Just thought I'd add that. And now while I am thinking about it I am going to pull up RDU in Google to see what it even looks like  Smile



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
25 RDUDDJI : Actually, I think TravisNC was talking about O&D only. IND has more connecting traffic than RDU and that should only increase as NW beefs up there. O
26 LambertMan : RDU has every right to be upset about not having flights to LA, but I'm sure the waiting won't last too much longer. The Bay Area, well.....you gotta
27 ERJ170 : Well, I guess we will just have to see what RDUAA can drum up.. Although LA and the Bay are are business routes, they are also leisure routes as well.
28 MAH4546 : Yes, but leisure travelers don't demand non-stops and won't pay a premium for them. Not really. In Denver, you can connect to dozens and dozens of We
29 Indy : RDUDDJI... looking at Google it looks like they have a new terminal and runway. Is that accurate? Are the two terminal buildings connected or is what
30 CasInterest : Indy The "Newer Terminal" and Newer/Longer Runway is the terminal C side on the Northwest. This was AA's hub building built in the mid 80's. Unfortuna
31 B742 : Couldn't AA add on a extension to their RDU-LGW route, maybe RDU-LGW-FRA? Rob!
32 MAH4546 : No. They would lose a ton of money. They would not have local traffic rights and they would need to dedicate two 777s to the RDU-LGW route instead of
33 San747 : Are you referring to the AF "Dedicate" service with the specially configured A319s? AFAIK, AF uses those on services to Indian Ocean destinations, ri
34 MAH4546 : Africa and the Middle East. The RDU-LGW route is mainly business traffic. That does not mean that RDU-CDG would be. There is a good amount of busines
35 B742 : No they wouldn't, one aircraft can manage to fly the route in plenty of time! Rob!
36 Travelin man : I could see AA starting RDU-LAX, but honestly I see WN starting it before AA. WN already does IND-LAX, BNA-LAX (as does AA), BWI-LAX, etc. I think, w
37 Womack17 : Lambert, my friend you read my mind exactly. I couldn't have stated it better myself.
38 N1120A : It is the ACJ and AF does not fly them, they fly A319ERs. As far as RDU-Europe goes, the only reason RDU has an LGW flight is because Pharmacutical c
39 Coronado990 : Never seen a SAN-RDU non-stop out of here and I have been following the schedules at Lindbergh since 1967 (when we got our first coast-to-coast non-s
40 MAH4546 : WN has never flown transcon from Raleigh.
41 MaverickM11 : "LA, BAY, and DEN will happen (+/- 1 yea).. " DEN happened, and didn't work. High load factor but still was cancelled by YV/UA. I think the reality is
42 ERJ170 : Hmm.. I thought WN did some sort of coast-to-coast.. I guess I'm wrong.. which would not be the first time. No, the truth is YV was always weight res
43 ConcordeBoy : ...and former Soviet territories as well. Though I'll admit to being too lazy to look up the turnaround times.... keep in mind that AA rotates its Ga
44 ERJ170 : I think it is, like, 4-5 hours between turnaround times.. which is about normal.. But what everyone keeps harping on is wrong.. the article states th
45 Paul777 : AA tried a few years ago an RDU-ORY ( I think it was ORLY and not CDG), and it lasted a while. It survived due to the cargo that was carried in the 76
46 MAH4546 : Normal is 2-3 hours. The RDU-LGW arrival turns around in 3.5 hours to do LGW-DFW. While DFW-LGW turns in 3 hours to do LGW-RDU. It lasted as long as
47 ERJ170 : Currently, the largest RDU could support on a daily basis would be a 757 to Europe. However, i don't think the 757 has the range to do RDU-Europe.. so
48 BOSPMV : those are rather odd airline/destination combos, you're saying that AC would do a daily to SEA out of RDU? or that HP, would do a daily to SFO out RDU
49 Luv2fly : I have to agree with this! Be happy for what you have, wanting more is normal though accept the fact that RDU is probably being served well enough fo
50 ERJ170 : He He.. I tried to think outside the box. Who knew DL would do the MSY flight? And I meant Alaska to SEA, not AC.. that is truely my bad.. UA has tur
51 MAH4546 : Then that is because the plane is early or leaving late. The plane is scheduled to arrive at RDU at 1620 and go back to London at 1845. That is a sch
52 Post contains links Paul777 : RDU-ORY started in 1988, ended in 94 and the hub closed in 96. http://airtransportbiz.free.fr/Networks/AABNARDU.html
53 Armada : RDU can't pull of being an interenational gateway...period. Too many neighbors very close to the North and a few to the South as well.
54 ERJ170 : I don't think they are trying to become an international gateway.. RDU is looking only at O&D flights.. It's not looking to connect passengers to the
55 Womack17 : Actually there was an error in the article, "RDU has never offered a direct flight to the Los Angeles area..." Midway did offer an evening non-stop to
56 Lax44 : The Midway flight didn't last very long as it came at the later part of the carrier's lifespan. It flew in and out of terminal 3.
57 RDUDDJI : I noticed that when I read the article too. The flight operated from 01JUL01-Midway's shutdown on 9/11. Lots of connectors for DCA came off the red-e
58 ERJ170 : Getting a first flight to LA should be the priority.. and it doesn't have to be to LAX.. but to any of the LA Area airports.. Same with SFO.. it could
59 N200WN : Coronado990 is correct...WN never operated RDU-SAN nonstop. Southwest tried connection all of these high tech centers together with the following rou
60 FLY777UAL : Is it that airlines can't make Raleigh work, or that they just don't want to put the effort in? Seems as if Raleigh would be a perfect market--it look
61 ERJ170 : Actually, RDU is a pretty mid fare market.. what makes RDU attractive is the amount of business traffic it has.. it is one of those markets where tra
62 Womack17 : I emailed the author of the article and he replied. My email to him is first and his response is second. "I thoroughly enjoyed your article, "RDU pul
63 Post contains images Womack17 : I forgot to include that I am surprised when I read replies from RDU'ers who never flew Midway. That absolutely saddens me. I flew with JI many, many,
64 Post contains images Cltguy : Womack17 I see you have effectively mastered the "sandwich" technique
65 Post contains images RDUDDJI : Well, RDU has had some interesting events happen in WN's short history there. JI went out of business and the "Dot com" bubble burst, not to mention
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