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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .  
User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10911 times:

This is a bizarre story ~
JUMBO jet pilots have been told they can take a nap at the controls during flights.

New guidelines - sent to all European carriers - state that a quick snooze in the cockpit "noticeably increases the attention levels in subsequent phases of flight".

The Joint Aviation Authorities' edict says the sleep must not be more than 45 minutes long. And the captain must have finished his rest half an hour before landing.

But experienced pilots fear it could lead to disaster.

One captain said: "Even on medium-range flights, fatigue can appear without warning.

"On minimum workload sectors there is no reason to ban napping but I once woke up in a three-man cockpit to find all of us had been caught napping at the same time."

Dozing pilots must also keep seatbelts and shoulder harnesses fastened to minimise "involuntary interfering on the flight controls". And at least 20 minutes must pass between the rest periods of two pilots to avoid "sleep inertia".

A cabin crew member has to ensure sure a flier is awake via an intercom to the cockpit.

The guideline adds: "Controlled rest is to be used with other fatigue-management measures such as physical exercise and intense illumination of the cockpit.

"Controlled rest must be exercised in the cruising phase where pilot tasks are less demanding."

But pilots' union Balpa warned that controlled rest periods must not become standard practice.

A spokesman said: "The scheduling of pilots' time should be done in a way that ensures they turn up rested for duty and remain fatigue free for that period of time.

"However, in the long-haul situation all the best-laid plans can go astray. A crew on the flight deck should be able to allow one of the pilots to take a rest if it is really required while ensuring that the flight deck is properly manned."

A captain for Italian carrier Alitalia was sacked last month for leaving the cockpit to sleep in a bunk bed on a flight from Rome to Miami.

Sleeping was debated at the International Federation of Airline Pilots in Cape Town, South Africa.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15488439&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=this-is-your-captain----we-are-now-snoozing-at-35-000feet-name_page.html

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineClimb1 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10875 times:

Quoting Squirrel83 (Thread starter):
Dozing pilots must also keep seatbelts and shoulder harnesses fastened to minimise "involuntary interfering on the flight controls".

lol! I was just about to mention "what if they lean forward in their sleep and hit the yoke?" but this kinda answers the question.
But surely a pilot could still grab the controls in their sleep if they were close enough?
I say they should stick to the bunks, just to be safe!



In my eyes the Boeing 747 will ALWAYS be the queen of the skies!
User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 60
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10791 times:

Quoting Squirrel83 (Thread starter):
A captain for Italian carrier Alitalia was sacked last month for leaving the cockpit to sleep in a bunk bed on a flight from Rome to Miami.

What gives??


Lee



Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2679 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10767 times:

The aviation administrations might as well allow napping on flights because the pilots will do what they want to anyway, whether it is legal or not. If you're tired, there is nothing you can do about it and it's safer to get a quick half hour nap than to fight staying awake during the entire approach. Especially after a nine hour long redeye flight in nasty weather.

Nick


User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10754 times:

Never fell asleep, but I did perform an extensive inspection of my eyelids for light leaking in after I shut them...

User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4011 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10568 times:

So these little snoozes are so the crew can be more alert in the bar once they arrive in their destination city?

User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2679 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10413 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 5):
So these little snoozes are so the crew can be more alert in the bar once they arrive in their destination city?

Yes, that is exactly what they are for. After twelve days of crossing the Pacific Ocean at exact opposite times of the day, the two-leg twelve hour flight back to the USA from Asia is two hours delayed. For several thousand miles they dodge thunderstorms in the dark trying to contact someone on HF. After two legs of this, maybe including an aircraft change somewhere, and no rest, the sun is coming up and they are on final approach fighting gusty crosswinds. Awake for 24 hours. I'm sure going to the bar is the first thing they plan to do.

Nick


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10293 times:

It's an admission of reality. A 20 minute nap in the seat, with the other pilot awake, will improve performance and ensure the pilot is alert for more critical parts of the flight like, say, landing. This is better than falling asleep involuntarily.


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10268 times:

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 6):
For several thousand miles they dodge thunderstorms in the dark

How many thunderstorms are there at FL 390?


User currently offlineAv8rPHX From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 713 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 10032 times:

Most cumulonimbus clouds (ie,thunderstorm clouds) can have tops anywhere from FL400 to FL600..

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21085 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9990 times:

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 8):
How many thunderstorms are there at FL 390?

More than you'd think. Thunderstorms with reported tops at FL450 and upwards are not uncommon.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2679 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9944 times:

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 8):
How many thunderstorms are there at FL 390?

Enough to force a B-757-300 down to FL200 last night in Minnesota. And then lower after that. The tops were at FL400.

Nick


User currently offlineGlidepath73 From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 1020 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9898 times:

I flew once with SQ ZRH-SIN (744). Over India, we had to fight with some really high Cumulinonimbus clouds. The pilot had to curve around the clouds to avoid the direct contact with them. He warned the passengers to fasten the seat belt. In deed, it got really bumpy!  bouncy  No time for a nap then!


Aviation! That rocks...
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2679 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9872 times:

We're getting off topic here. The tops of the CBs can be easily way too high for a jet to get above. The point here is that the crew can be busy during the cruise phase of a flight. Even if they aren't, they can be exhausted from being awake at a time that they are usually asleep at. 3:00AM with seven hours to go is tough after marginal daytime rest, even if you aren't busy.

Naps should be made legal.

Nick


User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9863 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
Thunderstorms with reported tops at FL450 and upwards are not uncommon.

I think the highest level ever recorded was FL680. Now that is one bitch of a storm!


User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9716 times:

Found a link.........

http://sky-fire.tv/index.cgi/thunderstorms.html#howhigh

Almost all thunderstorm clouds grow to heights above 20,000 feet. With 35,000 feet being typical. The more intense ones continue upwards until they hit the top of the troposphere, called the tropopause. Since penetrating into the stratosphere takes a lot of energy, many cumulonimbus clouds flatten out on the tropopause into the classic anvil shape with the tip streaming off downwind. If the storm is unusually intense, the updraft may punch into the stratosphere in cauliflower-like turrets. These “trop busters” are usually severe storms, with internal updrafts perhaps exceeding 100 mph. At any given place and time the height of the tallest storms is thus controlled by the height of the troposphere. Over the U.S. the tops of the stronger storms range from 40,000 to 65,000 feet from spring through summer and from north to south, respectively. There are some radar reports of echoes exceeding 70,000 feet, but if these reports are correct, this would be a very rare event. In any case, most thunderstorms are high enough that commercial jet traffic does not fly over most storms but rather circumnavigates since there can be “surprises” inside thunderstorm tops including extreme turbulence, hail, lightning, and wind shears.


User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8414 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9281 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Time to rename this topic My Thundercloud is Higher than Yours.


After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineTheredbaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2154 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9254 times:

Imagine...sleeping F/o and captaind a the darn door closed (in compliance with terrorists guidelines)......

yeah thats whats nightmares are made of...little things that can go wrong....



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineMissedApproach From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 713 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8981 times:

Studies have shown that pilots enduring long hours in the simulator are more likely to have, or have more episodes of, microsleep. Your eyes may even be open during a microsleep, but I assure you the brain is completely in neutral! On a long drive to Winnepeg I suddenly noticed there were different cars around me compared to what I remembered. I have no idea how long I was out. That will teach me to not book a flight!
Some links on microsleep:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsleep
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_train_disaster



Can you hear me now?
User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8943 times:

Quoting Squirrel83 (Thread starter):
"However, in the long-haul situation all the best-laid plans can go astray. A crew on the flight deck should be able to allow one of the pilots to take a rest if it is really required while ensuring that the flight deck is properly manned."

I thought in a long-haul flight that a crew member leaving the a/c and going to crew quarters to sleep was allowed? Tis the reason for 1-2 reserve pilots?

Quoting Squirrel83 (Thread starter):
A captain for Italian carrier Alitalia was sacked last month for leaving the cockpit to sleep in a bunk bed on a flight from Rome to Miami.

BTW: AZ I don't even think flys FCO-MIA non-stop, I know they have a connection in ATL and it is c/s with DL Thought they fly there 777's out of MXP?

Even if it is true how did the AZ ppl know this Capt. took a nap? His f/o rat him out? Like I said a source would do.





[Edited 2005-05-09 22:35:51]


Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineBa299 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8471 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 19):
BTW: AZ I don't think they even fly FCO-MIA non-stop, I know they have a connection in ATL and it is c/s with DL Thought they fly there 777's out of MXP?

Yes AZ fly non-stop MXP-MIA only. I think that now they use the B767


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5266 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8277 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 19):
I thought in a long-haul flight that a crew member leaving the a/c

Wow, things have really changed. Now you can even leave the aircraft in flight to get your rest!  Smile

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlineGoAllegheny From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8019 times:

On short and medium haul flights (under 6 hours??), the rules should be written to ensure that the pilots have enough rest between flights. I think that is the case in the US, but I still wonder if they are working.

The rules for a long-haul flight should allow naps. The bigger concern seems to be that the pilots do not want the new nap rules to provide a justification for reducing the amount of rest between flights.


User currently offlineC680 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 580 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7805 times:

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 3):
The aviation administrations might as well allow napping on flights because the pilots will do what they want to anyway, whether it is legal or not.

Bingo! and well said.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 4):
Never fell asleep, but I did perform an extensive inspection of my eyelids for light leaking in after I shut them...

What happens in the cockpit, stays in the cockpit.

Our crews have been doing this for years. We just make sure the other guy is *very* awake while the resting pilot re-charges his batteries.

For me, I never go into deep sleep, in fact, I still hear my callsign even while dozing off. I have been told that my radio work is better when I'm napping than awake.  Wink "Did I just respond to that hand-off to Indy Center? I can't remember. I must have been sleeping..."



My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
User currently offlineVEEREF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7353 times:

I'm all for it. Pilots are only human and subject to the same physiological laws as other humans. There have been proven studies in which a quick nap can serve to increase performance. I can guarantee it's happening in cockpits all over the world already, just unoffically.
There need to be safeguards for making sure that all others are alert however. Beyond that sounds like a great idea.

And yes, a major percentage of T Boomers do climb above 390, particularly the closer you get to the Equator. But don't be fooled, you don't have to go into one to get the ride of your life. Plenty of bumps to be found in between and around them as well


25 BoeingFever777 : BLOW ME. You know what I meant. PPL like you make a.net a *hitty place to post on cause you have nothing civil to contribute or say. Post on the topi
26 Post contains images Justplanecrazy : During a flight deck visit to LAX with Virgin Atlantic on a 744 in 1999 the captain told me that by law pilots must have 24 hours rest when flying to
27 RightWayUp : JustPlaneCrazy, He was not correct. I have operated Lhr-Lax-Lhr with 24 hours rest with Virgin. Basically you need just minimum rest. Your hours are m
28 FLYtoEGCC : Personally, I'm not for it. I know a lot of you have voiced the opposite opinion, but I don't think "dozing off" on the flight deck should be allowed.
29 Starlionblue : The rules are written that way pretty much in every country. But it's sometimes hard with the body clock telling you to be awake. The point is that a
30 FLYtoEGCC : I take your point, and I assume by "when it really counts" you mean phases such as take-off and landing, when workload is generally the heaviest and
31 GoBoeing : Pilots will be and are going 24 hours without sleep. Leave the US at noon and fly to Asia with a stop in Japan. Done at midnight home time zone. Go t
32 Post contains images Justplanecrazy : Thanks for shooting me down in flames on that one RWU and GB.
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