Byrdluvs747 From United States, joined Jul 2004, 1104 posts, RR: 1 Posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3658 times:
Yes, another Pan Am thread.
One of my biggest problems with this merger is that fact that the America West name will go away.
Seeing how the US name would be used temporarily, I'm wondering how hard it would be to buy the Pan Am name from that sleaze-bag who is currently holding it hostage.
I'm not totally familiar with Pan Am's current situation, so could anyone tell me the likelihood of the current owner selling the name/ops to another party. Last I heard he's putting the name on trains.
There's no other name that HP could pick that would be more recognized than Pan Am.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
MD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 2613 posts, RR: 55 Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3633 times:
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Thread starter): I'm not totally familiar with Pan Am's current situation, so could anyone tell me the likelihood of the current owner selling the name/ops to another party. Last I heard he's putting the name on trains.
Yes, I think it's owned by some cargo company. There was a post on the Pan Am TM earlier. I'll have to check it out.
Cheers!
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
KC135TopBoom From United States, joined Jan 2005, 5528 posts, RR: 36 Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3614 times:
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Thread starter): I'm not totally familiar with Pan Am's current situation, so could anyone tell me the likelihood of the current owner selling the name/ops to another party. Last I heard he's putting the name on trains.
Last I heard, PA is doing okay. Not as good as some, but better than most.
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Thread starter): There's no other name that HP could pick that would be more recognized than Pan Am.
WhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3585 times:
The problem with these names, like Pan Am, TWA, BOAC, Branniff and the rest, is that they have limited value. Whilst they might resonate with older travellers and aviation enthusiasts, to the early 20s and 30s traveller they either mean nothing or are tarnished by events. And they are the ones buying tickets.
So why bother rebranding some operation with a name which means little to most and has bad connotations with others? Sometimes it's just better to let go
Mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 10417 posts, RR: 79 Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3562 times:
Byrdluvs747:
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Thread starter): Seeing how the US name would be used temporarily, I'm wondering how hard it would be to buy the Pan Am name from that sleaze-bag who is currently holding it hostage.
The "sleaze bag" is one of the Mellon family (not a guarantee of respectability, of course), but he is not "holding the name hostage".
He bought the name Pan Am fair and square from the previous owners (Pan Am 2). He sees it as a solid part of his transport (railroad) business.
Would he sell it? Maybe, for a lot of money - and I mean a lot of money - but probably not. Why should he?
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2): Last I heard, PA is doing okay. Not as good as some, but better than most.
You didn't hear very good. It is a small disaster, starting service to cities, then pulling out after a few months. Last September they suspended operations altogether for a month or two.
DfwRevolution From United States, joined Mar 2004, 7650 posts, RR: 55 Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3546 times:
Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 3): The problem with these names, like Pan Am, TWA, BOAC, Branniff and the rest, is that they have limited value. Whilst they might resonate with older travellers and aviation enthusiasts, to the early 20s and 30s traveller they either mean nothing or are tarnished by events
And I suppose America West does?
Other than employees, enthusiast, and frequent flyers, who has a swell of nostolgia over HP?
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Thread starter):
I'm not totally familiar with Pan Am's current situation, so could anyone tell me the likelihood of the current owner selling the name/ops to another party.
I think Pan Am III as an airline went under, and they are now a container cargo distributer. Or something like that... try Google or something.
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Thread starter): There's no other name that HP could pick that would be more recognized than Pan Am.
They could wait 6 months and buy US name, or a year and buy UA's name
However, they use the Pan Am logo, and they may still have Pan Am on the side of the planes. Both Pan Am and Boston Maine are owned by Guildford Transport (a railroad company).
Backfire From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 0 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3464 times:
Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 3): Whilst they might resonate with older travellers and aviation enthusiasts, to the early 20s and 30s traveller they either mean nothing or are tarnished by events.
Pan Am had pretty bad connotations while it was still being used by the original Pan Am.
Byrdluvs747 From United States, joined Jul 2004, 1104 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3437 times:
Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 3): Whilst they might resonate with older travellers and aviation enthusiasts, to the early 20s and 30s traveller they either mean nothing or are tarnished by events.
There's nothing really wrong with the Pan Am name. The name would attract those "older" travellers and aviation enthusiasts. For the 20-30 year olds, who don't remember, they'll only see an airline that is out there competing just like all the others.
Hopefully if HP did buy the name they would do a big PR campaign marking the "Resurrection" of Pan Am.
Quoting Mariner (Reply 4): but he is not "holding the name hostage".
Well, he's not really doing anything with the airline. He has no solid business plan. So in effect he's preventing Pan Am from ever becoming a real airline again.
Quoting Mariner (Reply 4): Would he sell it? Maybe, for a lot of money - and I mean a lot of money - but probably not. Why should he?
Maybe if he was offered some stock options(non-controlling of course), or possibly create some cargo partnership. I don't like the idea of this guy holding any power within HP so I don't want him on the board.
Maybe this is the one reason to hope AA enters bankruptcy. There would be a slight possibility that AA would be forced to sell the name. AA isn't using the name in any way that is essential to the company. If they could make a few million just buy selling the name then what the hell.
As my grandmother worked/retired at TWA for 25 years and took me around the world as a little boy, I would probably shed a tear or two if/when TWA flew again.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
Mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 10417 posts, RR: 79 Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3392 times:
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 9): Well, he's not really doing anything with the airline.
He thinks he is.
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 9): So in effect he's preventing Pan Am from ever becoming a real airline again.
Why would anyone want it to become a "real" airline again? The old Pan Am couldn't survive as a "real" airline.
Several of the US airlines presently flying are having trouble surviving as "real" airlines.
And for all the few who might cheer if Pan Am was revived in any meaningful way, there are probably many more who would curse and demand payment for tickets that they paid for but could not use.
What Pan Am was, in its glory day, is dead. As Whitehatter noted, BOAC is gone, too. And what BOAC was is gone. The world has changed, it is smaller, the jumbo jet has much to answer for.
Aloha717200 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 3468 posts, RR: 12 Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3340 times:
Quoting Mariner (Reply 10): Why would anyone want it to become a "real" airline again? The old Pan Am couldn't survive as a "real" airline.
Only because of bad management during that time period. With good management Pan Am was and continues to be one of the most legendary names in commercial aviation. A lot of innovations in the air travel industry were spearheaded by Pan Am. the modern system of ATC comes to mind, and I need not mention Juan Trippe's influence over the 747.
Pan Am was the only carrier in our nation's history that could have been percieved as our "national" carrier. Pan Am was, for a time, the symbol of America abroad. Which is why it was a target as well.
Pan Am's service in their day is still remembered as being amongst the best in the industry. Though, anyone would know that today that type of service could never be profitably matched. It doesn't mean that an airline, with the right management, and the right attitude, couldn't use the name to rebuilt Pan Am in a form that is pleasant to the passenger and also profitable. It could be done.
But the airline itself cannot be said to be hated or not worth resurrecting because of bad management right at the end. There are many great, but now failed airlines, that faltered at the end when unable to cope with increasing costs and management issues.
Eastern Airlines had a great legacy too. Until the aviation antichrist Frank Lorenzo got his hands on the airline. But couldn't someone bring it back in a fantastic form?
Yes. But it takes the right people to pull it off. Otherwise all you have is a sad excuse for a company that is clinging only to the name to save them from being laughed off the face of the earth. AKA Pan am III.
What if HP were to call themselves Eastern? Wouldn't that be fantastic to have the silverbird fleet back?
We can all dream. But, truth be told the likelihood of any airline being resurrected in the wake of the HP/US deal is pretty slim. Do you know how I'd give to see the PSA Smileliners come back....what a shot to US' eye to have HP buy them and then change the name of the whole operation to PSA.
That, that itself would make me feel great. I still have a set of PSA wings that they used to give to the kids from PSA. I'd love to see that fantastic airline fly agian.
But the chances are so slim. It's nice to dream. But it likely wouldn't happen.
Mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 10417 posts, RR: 79 Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3295 times:
Perhaps you chould check out my age and background - I grew up in the Middle East, my father worked for BOAC, and I flew Pan Am before jets, before the 707's.
I continued to fly Pan Am almost up to the end. And, I promise you, by the end, trans-Pacific first class, the service was appalling.
Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 11): But the chances are so slim. It's nice to dream. But it likely wouldn't happen.
I agree it is a nice dream, but I still don't understand why you would want to revive it.
Surely it is better to live with the fantasy of what it was, the legend, rather than do what has happened to the name twice already - bring it back and watch it fail again.
I have a fairly open mind about the HP/US merger - I don't particularly like it, but I don't hate it. But many, many Wall Street analysts are very wary of it.
HP, they say, is doing okay if not great, while US is a financial basket case.
What is HP/US adopted the name Pan Am and what if the plight of US Airways dragged that name into the mud - one mo' time?
Let Pan Am rest in peace. And dream of what it was.
Aloha717200 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 3468 posts, RR: 12 Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3272 times:
Quoting Mariner (Reply 12): And, I promise you, by the end, trans-Pacific first class, the service was appalling.
Yes, Pan Am's service wasn't the best in the end from what I've heard, but Pan Am truly was a great airline during their heyday, before the financial crisis.
I would bring it back in a heartbeat if it were up to me, but it is not. Likewise Eastern, or many other defunct airlines that, in their day, were great, but met similar fates at the end. The morale of the workers as a whole tends to go down as the airline they work for dies. That translates into poor service quite often. I can't blame PA for that in the late 1980s and early 1990s before the shutdown.
Laxtwin From United States, joined Apr 2005, 46 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3195 times:
This name game intrigues me. I don't know why resurrecting old airline names would represent the new merged airline better than a new one. Or why America West sounds too regional for an airline with service to Europe but airlines named Delta, Continental and Northwest fly internationally and there is no outcry for them to change their names? I guess it is just personal preference. And mine is that they hire a market research co to come up with their new branding. That or have a contest among the employees to do it.
Tango-Bravo From United States, joined Jun 2001, 3012 posts, RR: 28 Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3181 times:
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Thread starter): One of my biggest problems with this merger is that fact that the America West name will go away.
First, what merger? Until the deal is done it's nothing more than talk of what might be. Moreover, until the potential merger is much further along than at present, the "name of the new airline" issue is a moot point, or speculation at best.
As for the Pan Am name, I say "no way." There never has been another Pan Am and never will be. The present so-called Pan Am (what is it, Mk. III or IV?) is nothing but a sham in that it bears not one iota of resemblence to its original namesake. Let the Pan Am name be nothing more than the name of a once great airline that pioneered the first regularly scheduled intercontinental airline service (along with Lufthansa, KLM and BOAC predecessor Imperial Airways), a name which evokes romantic, colorful and unique memories of everything concerning intercontinental airline service, from flying boats, to Juan Trippe, to owning controlling interest in several airlines in Latin America and elsewhere, to Stratocruisers, to intra-German services linking Berlin to the FRG, to being among the launch customers for both the 707 and DC-8, to being the sole airline behind Boeing's decision to launch the 747, which revolutionized long-haul air transport. Any other use of the Pan Am name is a travesty IMHO.
FriendlySkies From United States, joined Aug 2004, 3578 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3140 times:
As great as the names were, would you really want to be named after a failed enterprise? I mean...
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