Azstar From United States, joined May 2005, 272 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2580 times:
Fargo is served by 3 RJ's to ORD, 4 RJ's to DEN, and 8 mainline flights to MSP. By contrast, similar, or smaller cities have more nonstops to more cities, and larger aircraft. FSD, for example, has slightly less population than Fargo, serves a smaller area, and has more nonstop service to Denver, Chicago, Cincinnati, MSP, and Phoenix. FAR airfares are some of the highest in the country. What gives?
Azstar From United States, joined May 2005, 272 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2529 times:
Those cities are about about an hour to one and a half hours drive from alternate airports, such as Chicago Midway, right? Fargo is 3.5 hours by car from MSP.
EnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 689 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2511 times:
Safe to say that it isn't underserved because in a free market supply would meet demand... especially in the over competitive cutthroat priced US market.
Supa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2498 times:
Keep in mind that Fargo is so distant from any other hubs that profitability would be very difficult. Do you really think PHX daily flights would cut the mustard? LAX? NYC? Hmm, gonna say no.
So population / market size has something to do with it, but FAR is 1,000 miles from any other hub not already served... a unique problem but very important. One daily to DFW might work, but overall the MSP service is most logical from a flight time / crew hours perspective.
Concentriq From United States, joined Jan 2005, 362 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2466 times:
FSD has many of the big IT companies moving their operations to Soux Falls. Seems to be the trend lately. (Apperently land is cheap and salary standards are low in SD . So naturally you are going to have many of business travelers going in/out of FSD. hence more flights
Bakersfield, CA, is the 64th largest CMA (Consolidated Metropolitan Area) in the United States, and RAPIDLY expanding. Projections are that by the year 2010, its neighbor to the north, Fresno, will be over one million, and Bakersfield will not be far behind.
Yet what kind of air service does BFL have? BFL-PHX x4 and BFL-LAS x1 (HPExpress), BFL-IAH x3 (CO Express), soon to be BFL-SLC x2 (Delta Express), BFL-LAX x6 and BFL-SFO x2 (UA Express). No mainline flights - only EM2's, CRJ-200's, and EMB-145's.
As recently as 1998, UA Express was the only airline in town. Other services have slowly trickled in, but nowhere near the levels from the 1980's (AA, UA, CO mainline to DFW, DEN, ORD, & SFO).
Yes, yes, there are extenuating circumstances - BFL is too close to LAX, virtually no tourism, etc, etc...but if you look on the list on the link provided, look at the cities preceding and following Bakersfield - despite relatively similar populations, their airports have MUCH more service.
My two cents worth.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
Stirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 35 Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2240 times:
Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 8): BFL is the most underserved airport in the United States
If we're talking about the San Joaquin, I'd say Stockton is by far, the largest city in AMERIKA without any airline service....with a metro area of over 500,000, (city of over 250,000) the airport hasn't seen airline service since HPX pulled out a couple of years ago..Modesto, (city 208,000) and 29 miles to the south, fairs no better, just a few dailies to SFO on UAX Brasillias..
So to answer your question, No. Some places would KILL for the airline service of Fargo.
Alphascan From United States, joined Nov 2003, 877 posts, RR: 17 Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2204 times:
Quoting Azstar (Thread starter): FSD, for example, has slightly less population than Fargo, serves a smaller area, and has more nonstop service
First, FSD's population is 30 % greater than FAR. 124,000 vs 90,000 (2000 census). FSD is growing at a much faster rate.
FSD's market area may or may not be smaller than FAR's but is much more densely populated.
FSD's median income is 15% greater than FAR's and FSD incomes are derived from occupations much more inclined to travel. Financial Services vs Ag related.
SD's business climate is attracting the credit operations of many Fortune 500 companies.
Fact is, FSD is a more attractive market to serve vs. FAR and they have the service to prove it.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
Azstar From United States, joined May 2005, 272 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2173 times:
FAR SMSA was 174,000 vs FSD 172,000 in 2000. Growth rates have been about the same. FSD City is larger than FAR, but urban Fargo consists of several cities which are completely conjoined, including West Fargo with about 15,000 people, I think.Your points about the type of traffic are probably valid. I don't mean to turn this into a thread about which is bigger.
ILOVEA340 From United States, joined Oct 1999, 2100 posts, RR: 7 Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2094 times:
I tell you that here in Eugene (EUG) I feel that we are very underserved. All RJ and Dash-8 service. USed to have a nummber of mainlines under United Shuttle. Now we have a few RJ's that are oversold on a virtually daily basis...
TWA902fly From United States, joined Dec 1999, 2860 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2057 times:
Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 5): Do you really think PHX daily flights would cut the mustard?
Well FSD-PHX works... so i am guessing FAR-PHX would work... however Fargo is not as big as many of you think - 90,000 people isnt that much. Having flown out of there - it is pretty amazing that an A320 serves FAR. Also North Dakota is owned by Northwest Airlines - Everyone in Fargo flies Northwest - anyone who flies there is a WorldPerks member pretty much. United provides the competition for everyone else. There's not really room for anyone else - AA could send ERJs from ORD - but that would compete with UA's CRJs and they already have their service well established. Maybe DFW-FAR with ERJ-135s could work? Other than that theres no hubs close enough for any service. For now Fargo remains in the middle of nowhere - the only service i could see is a summer seasonal NW DTW-FAR, but i am not sure that would be needed. ANyways - to conclude - ND is very well covered by Northwest Airlines
'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
ExFATboy From United States, joined Jul 2003, 2140 posts, RR: 9 Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2017 times:
Quoting Stirling (Reply 11): If we're talking about the San Joaquin, I'd say Stockton is by far... (snip)
Yeah, but Stockton is only about an hour from SJC, SMF, or OAK. And a lot of the catchment area you're citing is even closer to one of those three airports - the population of the City of Stockton itself is only about 250,000 (2000 census.) BTW, there's no "k" in "America."
In terms of service relative to market size (total catchment area, not just metro area), I'd submit Fresno is probably the worst-served city in America, although Bakersfield has a good case.
Quoting STT757 (Reply 14): I would say Atlantic City with 34 Million annual visitors has the most underserved airport in the US.
But the majority of those visitors come from New York City, other parts of New Jersey, or Philadelphia - buses or driving (or NJ Transit trains from Philly) are perfectly adequate. It's only a one-hour drive from Philly to Atlantic City (at least according to Mapquest...probably more during commute hours.)
While there might be some room for more flights from other parts of the country, once you get out of the Northeast you run into the fact that if it takes the same amount of time to travel to AC or Vegas, the vast majority of people will choose Vegas. If AC continues to grow, this could change in the future, though.
Cloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1888 times:
In downstate Illinois -
Peoria, Decatur, Champaign, and Springfield will all tell you they are underserved. I'll tell you what my hometown's boosters would say. Springfield gets only a few CRJ's to Ohare and three Jetstreams a day to Saint Louis. Ohare is a pain to deal with. Saint Louis does not have nearly as many connection options as it once has. Springfield is the state capital. It has many white-coller industries that require travel. It is a tourist destination.
But this is what the town boosters won't say. We are about an hour and a half from STL(Saint Louis) and even closer than that to BMI(Bloomington). Bloomington is a smaller city than Springfield, yet it gets much more air service. Why is this? I suspect it is because if you look at a map of central Illinois, you will find one city that is in the center of it all and that is Bloomington. Peoria, Decatur, Champaign, and Springfield are all about the same distance to Bloomington. So that is where the air service goes. Free parking and sustainable low fare service through Airtran helps also. We had low fare service through ATA's Chicago Express once, but was not sustainable due to high CASM's in regional aircraft.
Also, Springfield's tourism industry(we get it because we were Lincoln's hometown for most of his life) does not contribute a lot to air traffic. The vast majority of tourism is drive in family traffic from Illinois and neigboring states. Those that come from farther out fly to Chicago or Saint Louis and see that as their main destination. They go to Springfield as a secondary destination. There are only a tiny number of tourists that fly directly to Springfield.
State workers fly a lot but mainly just to Chicago. The insurance industry (Horace Man, etc.) does create some traffic but they simply are not big enough in Springfield to create the ammount of traffic needed to get more service.
IN SHORT.... Air service is about more than population and distance to other cities. A large number of other factors are involved, and the relative importance of each factor changes depending on which city one is speaking of. Everyone thinks they don't have enough air service, but usually that is not the case when you look at things more closely.
AirWillie6475 From United States, joined Jan 2005, 2447 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1855 times:
I would say that grand-forks, ND is the most underserved. Fargo at least has more than one airline serving it. I wanted to visit UND Aerospace and the only NW served the airport.
Burnsie28 From United States, joined Aug 2004, 6248 posts, RR: 16 Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1848 times:
Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 20): I would say that grand-forks, ND is the most underserved. Fargo at least has more than one airline serving it. I wanted to visit UND Aerospace and the only NW served the airport.
So because NW was the only airline serving GFK, you couldnt visit UND, let alone try and go there?
"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
Burnsie28 From United States, joined Aug 2004, 6248 posts, RR: 16 Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1813 times:
Quoting Dragogoalie (Reply 22): Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 21):
So because NW was the only airline serving GFK, you couldnt visit UND, let alone try and go there?
some people actually have to pay for plane tickets remember Wink
-emu
But to completely take a school out of the running is BS, and fares to GFK in the summer are not too bad ive seen average of $286.00
Also he could have tried Fargo, not that it would make too much of a difference.
"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
AviatorTJ From United States, joined Jul 2003, 1803 posts, RR: 13 Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1783 times:
Willie,
You could have flown a real airline to FAR. Coming from anywhere but the midwest (I see you come from SFO) you can get decent UAL fares. The drive to FAR from GFK is worth it if it gets you a better alternative.
I hardly thing FAR is underserved. Sure in ND there are not too many choices for airlines, but as desolate as it is, people should be thankful for anything. I bet I could come up with some airports that are more deserving of service than anything in this state.
Senorcarnival From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 25, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1770 times:
Quoting ILOVEA340 (Reply 16): I tell you that here in Eugene (EUG) I feel that we are very underserved. All RJ and Dash-8 service. USed to have a nummber of mainlines under United Shuttle. Now we have a few RJ's that are oversold on a virtually daily basis...
But you're less than 150 miles from PDX. Remember that almost 15% of your population are UO students (20,000 out of 140,000 inhabitants of Eugene/Springfield are UO students) that can't really go anywhere for most of the year, save for summer, spring break and winter break.
26 Mir: Please tell me you're kidding. Urban Fargo? What urban Fargo? The place is almost entirely suburbs. Cities? You must mean Minneapolis. Not really und
27 Stirling: Moorhead...across the river in Minnesota. When I was a child, working on bombers at GFAFB, we'd go to the "Big-City" for a change of pace...the big c
28 ExFATboy: *snicker* That's a good one...the Governator does do interesting things with English, doesn't he? Didn't mean to be hostile - I didn't know you were
29 FATFlyer: The last time I went through town on 99, the population sign read I believe 252,000...it registered in my mind because it was in the area of the beau
31 Stirling: No harm done. Most of the hostile attitudes on this board could be avoided if people would stop, listen, and think....but then, some folks aren't hap
32 TWA902fly: Definately not underserved. Sure sucks that NW owns this palce, but you find me another town of 60,000 people that has that many seats. I cant believ
33 QQFLYER28: Since I am originally from central valley, I am going to put my vote in for Fresno. The have recently opened a new terminal addition yet, to my dismay
34 Burnsie28: What the hell is that supposed to mean? Wouldnt change, looking at Fargo i got fares within $20 of GFK.
35 FATFlyer: I do too. I keep thinking that the airlines will recognize the changes that have happened in the area in the last few years. There is lots more money
36 Mir: Depends on when. Sometimes they are similar, and sometimes there is a difference of a hundred dollars or more. -Mir
37 Isitsafenow: I was going to add MBS, Saginaw, Bay City and Midland Michigan with the population within a 40 mile radius of the airport. Its gotta be around 500,000
38 Iowaman: Range would be a problem with the CRJ, FSD-PHX and DSM-PHX is a stretch. And Allegiant to LAS several times weekly.
39 QQFLYER28: How could forget about Allegiant to LAS. Thank you for the information. FATFlyer: Yeah with the opening of the Save Mart Center you would think that
40 Midex461: How about DAB? All they have is DL to ATL and CVG. Yeah, CO has about 2 flights to EWR (weekdays, goes to 1 on Sat, and 3 on Sun), but that's nothing
41 Hardiwv: America??? South America? Central America? or North America?????
42 FATFlyer: Not just the new Save Mart Center although they also have Loggins & Messina, Neil Diamond, Motley Crue, Green Day and more coming up on the schedule.
43 JCS17: It's actually interesting that some of you are discussing FAR-PHX's viability. Fargo Hector Airport actually submitted an application for a $700,000 S
44 TWA902fly: Oh comeon you know what he means.. would someone from south america or central america tell you theyre from america - no they'd say "i am from panama
45 Stirling: To my grape stompin', fig chewing, almond husking, fog bustin', and tri-tip barbequin' brothers back home....(besides that I miss home..... ) Maybe we
46 PROSA: What about Branson, Missouri? It's a major vacation destination, and not really close to any major airports.
47 Iflewrepublic: Does anyone remember the REAL overcapacity at FAR in the late 1980s? Remember the days of Northwest Orient flying 727s and 757s into FAR, coupled with
48 Stirling: Yes. As a matter of fact, I think it was flight UA747...FAR-FSD-DEN ....and this just in from this morning's Modesto Bee... By 2040, the valley popul
49 Isitsafenow: PROSA..Springfield Mo,SGF, is apx 40 miles north of Branson. Some carrriers are showing SGF as....Springfield/Branson. safe
50 NYCFlyer: Someone else beat me to it - all 34 million are local, from NY, NJ, and PA. How about Burlington, Vermont? They've got closer to 40,000 people. Is BT
51 PROSA: BTV serves a fairly large area. ALB and MHT are the closest other airports, if you don't include YUL, and they're probably at least a 2-hour drive aw
52 PHXinterrupted: Sorry Euro, you may refer to the the US as "the States" but Americans typically refer to it as America or the US.
54 NYCFlyer: Good point. But if you just consider all airports' immediate metropolitan area sizes, BTV could well have the most service per capita in the U.S. Not
55 TWFirst: To add to that, the official name of the country is "United States of America". America IS in the name of the country... which is located on the cont
56 Azstar: I think Billings rates as an overserved market. Less than 100,000 people with mainline service to MSP, DEN (2 airlines), SLC, SEA and various other Pa
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. So naturally you are going to have many of business travelers going in/out of FSD. hence more flights 
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