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NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III  
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10068 times:

I guess the New York Times is spending its time here on ANet

If an Airline Fails, Who Would Care?

Published: May 15, 2005
In giving United Airlines permission to default on its employee pension plans last week, Chief Judge Eugene R. Wedoff of United States Bankruptcy Court said the action was the "least bad choice" to keep the company in business.



Would United actually fail it were required to meet its pension obligations? The airline's unions say no, and plan to appeal the ruling. United counters that it will never recover if it has to pay $9 billion in pension debts, and that it might very well collapse.

But who would miss United if it just went under?

Its 61,000 employees would be devastated, of course, and they've already seen their wages cut twice, their pension plans disappear and their post-retirement health-care coverage vanish since the airline filed for Chapter 11 protection in December 2002.

But the truth is that for United's passengers - there were six million last year - and competing airlines, it might not matter all that much if the carrier disappeared.

Other carriers would be likely to swoop in and offer service on many of United's most lucrative routes, like many out of Chicago, where the company is in a dogfight for passengers with American Airlines.

And Denver is a gateway to many West Coast routes.

In addition, 80 percent of the airports United serves are also covered by low-fare airlines like Southwest, JetBlue or AirTran.

Because other airlines prize so many of United's routes, its collapse would not even allow ticket prices to rise much - bad news for other struggling airlines that need higher prices to help them recover costs.

In any case, a federal appeals court judge will now decide whether Judge Wedoff's "least bad choice" for United is just that - or if there is a better one.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/weekinreview/15basics.html?

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11523 posts, RR: 61
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10039 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
But the truth is that for United's passengers - there were six million last year - and competing airlines, it might not matter all that much if the carrier disappeared.

Did Jayson Blair write this article? It's obvious the NYT is still having some fact-checking problems. United carried 61.51 million passengers in 2004, about ten times the "six million" stated!


User currently offlinePlaneSmart From New Zealand, joined Dec 2004, 896 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9939 times:

One airline disappearing from the market in an uncontrolled manner will not turn the industry around.

In contrast, a managed rationalisation / re-structure means all those expected to benefit will contribute to the costs, and hopefully, the people management can be better handled.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9830 times:

People use to say the same that EA, PA and TW could never disappear, well where are they now?


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineQxq400 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9756 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 3):
People use to say the same that EA, PA and TW could never disappear, well where are they now?

I use to say the same thing about UA. I am not so sure now,I think there chances of surviving are 25%-75% for survival. UA has huge issues,and no airline has been able to survive this long in bankrupcy.N7 tried and in the end the creditors just got tired of the whole process and pulled the plug. I think UA is close to that point.



Welcome baby Madison Renee
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9740 times:

Quoting Qxq400 (Reply 4):
I use to say the same thing about UA. I am not so sure now,I think there chances of surviving are 25%-75% for survival. UA has huge issues,and no airline has been able to survive this long in bankrupcy.N7 tried and in the end the creditors just got tired of the whole process and pulled the plug. I think UA is close to that point.

I have to agree they keep asking for extensions with out any sign of them getting a plan of action to emerge, full of excuses is what I keep reading. If it was not for the cost of fuel, if it was not for the pensions, if it was not for what we pay our employees, and on and on and on.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9689 times:

Interesting coming from the Out-of-Touch Times. The same question could be asked of the New York Times. If it fails, would anyone care? Newspaper readership is at an all time low. Americans, like it or not, ignore all of the very left of center editorial positions taken by the Times. So what would we miss more, the New York Times or United Airlines?

User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9525 times:

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
Interesting coming from the Out-of-Touch Times. The same question could be asked of the New York Times. If it fails, would anyone care? Newspaper readership is at an all time low. Americans, like it or not, ignore all of the very left of center editorial positions taken by the Times. So what would we miss more, the New York Times or United Airlines?

LMAO!!!!!  Big grin

Of course the NYT would never print an editorial questioning their existence, since it doesn't fall under the heading of "all the news fit to print!" !!


User currently offlineTexdravid From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9466 times:

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
Interesting coming from the Out-of-Touch Times. The same question could be asked of the New York Times. If it fails, would anyone care? Newspaper readership is at an all time low. Americans, like it or not, ignore all of the very left of center editorial positions taken by the Times. So what would we miss more, the New York Times or United Airlines?

Couldn't have said it better myself! Americans would definitely miss UA more!



Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9399 times:

Living in The Bay Area and commuting to ORD every few weeks, I would CERTAINLY miss UA....that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if AA would try to expand in SFO....95% of my flights from SFO are on AA, and their terminal is basically nothing compared to say UA.....

their majour routes from SFO are ORD/JFK/DFW/HNL/LAX/SAN....

to top it all off...AA has considerably cut their services from SJC also.......  mad 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineCORULEZ05 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9376 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
In addition, 80 percent of the airports United serves are also covered by low-fare airlines like Southwest, JetBlue or AirTran.

...part of the reason why they are in this situation to begin with.

I would definetly miss United. I have flown with them a few times and they are a great airline. For some reason I feel like if United goes under, it is giving those 9/11 terrorist and others credit because in part, they are responsible for the situation airlines are in right now. Truly sad. Whatever happens, I wish all United employees the best......


User currently offlinePassBureauMgr From United States of America, joined May 2005, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9278 times:

Is The New York Times calling the kettle Black? What a pathetic company to be making statements & mis-statements like they do. Furthermore in the field of journalism, they have one of the worst records of treating employees "exceptionally, or even paying their bills. Small businesses all over New York who carried them for goods & services on Net 30 were told 4 years ago take Net 90, and get over it.

User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9195 times:

Quoting PassBureauMgr (Reply 11):

Small businesses all over New York who carried them for goods & services on Net 30 were told 4 years ago take Net 90, and get over it.

At least they pay their bills. You folks may not like it, but what they are saying about UAL is true. So get over it!


User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3431 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9190 times:

I love how many of you guys are bashing the most famous newspaper in the history of newspapers because they have moderate views and are saying what many people feel.

Oh I suppose that many of our online chatters like the garbage spewed from Fox News, but all that aside, I'll take a very Republican right-wing view for this thread.

United is the biggest welfare case that ever existed in the history of aviation. Actually, the second biggest after US Airways. Many people, including myself, are sick of paying for them.

Furthermore, what they did to their employees this week is criminal. I don't care how much of a UAL lover anyone is . . . to work for a company for 30 years and see a pension wiped out is a disgusting disgrace to the decency of humanity.

If there is justice in this world, they are in for it.


User currently offlineRAMPRAT980 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 600 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9179 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
United carried 61.51 million passengers in 2004,

With that amount of PAX's and at $300 a ticket average(maybe I'm too high or low with that estimate) then UAL grossed over 18 Billion dollars. You can't blame what they're going through on LCC's or high fuel. Either they're cooking the books or management is running the company into the ground. Now I think that since they aren't a publicly traded company the SEC has no jurisdiction. However since the pension plan was picked up by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. If they are subsidized by the U.S. government then its my opinion that they should step in and monitor their funds. No if's, and's or but's about it. Something smells fishy to me !!!
 stirthepot 



With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11523 posts, RR: 61
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9110 times:

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 14):
With that amount of PAX's and at $300 a ticket average(maybe I'm too high or low with that estimate) then UAL grossed over 18 Billion dollars.

You are over. United's 2004 revenue total revenue was $16.4 billion, and they carried 61,508,000 passengers last year, for a rought average fare per ticket of approximately $266. That $34 makes a big difference -- of $2.06 billion dollars. In fact, if UA had sold each ticket last year for an average of $300, they would have made a nearly $1 billion profit.

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 14):
You can't blame what they're going through on LCC's or high fuel.

Not totally, but both LCCs and high fuel are a huge part of their problems. Their bloated and complex operating structure and high fixed operating costs are their biggest problem, but LCCs and fuel play a sizeable role too in their current troubles.

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 14):
Either they're cooking the books or management is running the company into the ground.

Or they were doing poorly pre-9/11, and then 9/11 exaccerbated their problems, and now they are forced to operate in the most competitive and challenging airline environment since the industry's inception eighty years ago.

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 14):
Now I think that since they aren't a publicly traded company the SEC has no jurisdiction.

Their shares are still traded, even though they are essentially wallpaper, and the SEC still has oversight. Check sec.gov to view UAL's latest SEC filings.

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 14):
However since the pension plan was picked up by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. If they are subsidized by the U.S. government then its my opinion that they should step in and monitor their funds. No if's, and's or but's about it.

It is not the government's place to "monitor" any company's funds, at least not in America. This is why UAL must disclose all of their finances and account for every dime earned and spent, so that any ordinary investor can hold UAL accountable with their wallets. The government has no place running companies.


User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9087 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
their majour routes from SFO are ORD/JFK/DFW/HNL/LAX/SAN....

Dallas

SFO-DFW: AA, UA
OAK-DFW: AA
SJC-DFW: AA

Honolulu

SFO-HNL: NW, AA, UA, DL, TZ, HA
OAK-HNL: AQ
SJC-HNL: AA

Los Angeles

SFO-LAX: AA, UA, AS
SFO-SNA: AA, UA
SFO-ONT: UA
OAK-BUR: WN
OAK-LAX: UA, WN
OAK-LGB: B6
OAK-ONT: WN
OAK-SNA: WN
SJC-LAX: WN, UA, AA
SJC-ONT: WN
SJC-SNA: WN, AA
SJC-BUR: WN

New York/Newark

SFO-JFK: AA, DL, UA, HP
SFO-EWR: CO, UA
OAK-JFK: B6
SJC-JFK: AA, B6
SJC-EWR: CO

Chicago

SFO-ORD: AA, UA
SFO-MDW: TZ
OAK-ORD: AA, UA
OAK-MDW: WN
SJC-ORD: AA, UA
SJC-MDW: WN

San Diego

SFO-SAN: UA
OAK-SAN: WN
SJC-SAN: WN

There are plenty of choices and United Airlines, would not be missed in the Bay Area market. United Airlines, offers nothing that any other airline does not offer from San Francisco. All of the International flying from San Francisco is duplicated by other airlines with the exception of Sydney, Nagoya, and Osaka. All of which are easily accessed via other airlines that currently serve San Francisco. The exception for the most part are the United Express routes. Which, are nickel and dime, considering the most pax that the United Express Jungle jets hold are about 60 passengers, or so! No, United Airlines, would not be missed!

Regards - Kahala777


User currently offlineDhefty From United States of America, joined May 2005, 599 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9046 times:

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
Newspaper readership is at an all time low. Americans, like it or not, ignore all of the very left of center editorial positions taken by the Times. So what would we miss more, the New York Times or United Airlines?

Who is this "we" you're talking about, kemo sabe? The NYT is recognized as the best paper in the US, if not the world, and is read regularly by millions of people. They have the largest staff, worldwide scope, and by far the most influence on decision-makers. If they make an occasional error, they usually report it on the corrections page, something that most other rags don't do. As far I know, TV and radio news shows never admit their mistakes and basically have no in-depth coverage. Fox News is pure propaganda.


User currently offline102IAHexpress From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9046 times:

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
Interesting coming from the Out-of-Touch Times. The same question could be asked of the New York Times. If it fails, would anyone care? Newspaper readership is at an all time low. Americans, like it or not, ignore all of the very left of center editorial positions taken by the Times. So what would we miss more, the New York Times or United Airlines?

I disagree; The New York Times is an American institution. Read internationally by the left and the right. I’m not sure if readership is down for the NYT, I would like to see those numbers. But in any case the NYT is not a failing business, NYT advertising revenue is not just based on print advertising but also on online advertising. So it would be missed if it were gone, because people all over the world log-on to NYT on the web to get their news.

United on the other hand is a failed business, and would probably be missed by many anetters, but non aviation enthusiasts wouldn’t miss it one bit. Do non aviation enthusiasts miss Pan Am or TWA? I doubt it.


User currently offlineRAMPRAT980 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 600 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9018 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
It is not the government's place to "monitor" any company's funds, at least not in America. This is why UAL must disclose all of their finances and account for every dime earned and spent, so that any ordinary investor can hold UAL accountable with their wallets. The government has no place running companies.

Like I said if you come to the federal government asking, pleading for money and they give it then they should have a look see at the books. Remember I estimated approx. 18 billion dollars grossed in 2004. Where did all this money go ? I say let UAL fall by the way side. There are pleanty of other airlines out there. Was the industry impacted when Eastern, Pan Am, or TWA faded away ? NO



With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8988 times:

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 19):
I say let UAL fall by the way side

Please... Please... Please...

 hyper 


Regards - Kahala777


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11523 posts, RR: 61
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8931 times:

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 19):
Like I said if you come to the federal government asking, pleading for money and they give it then they should have a look see at the books.

That's just it, though. The US government, you, I or anyone else in the world with a computer can view all of United's books in a matter of seconds by pulling up their financial statements and SEC filings.

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 19):
I say let UAL fall by the way side.

I agree. If UA simply cannot come up with a viable business plan, than it should be aloud to fail and the free market should be allowed to take care of the capacity inbalance by itself.


User currently offlineRAMPRAT980 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 600 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8860 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
That's just it, though. The US government, you, I or anyone else in the world with a computer can view all of United's books in a matter of seconds by pulling up their financial statements and SEC filings.

Please not to be rude, but do you actually think a 10K report is 1,000,000% truthful ?



With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11523 posts, RR: 61
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8803 times:

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 22):
Please not to be rude, but do you actually think a 10K report is 1,000,000% truthful ?

Um, not to be rude, but a resounding yes!

Airlines, and all companies for that matter, must be truthful in their financial reporting for fear of fines and criminal prosecution by the government and the even more disastrous consequence: the complete financial collapse of their company due to loss of credibility and trust in the financial markets.

Look at companies that fudged their numbers: Enron, bankrupt, WorldCom, bankrupt, Global Crossing, bankrupt.

As to UA specifically, there is absolutely no evidence that they or their management have ever intentionally manipulated their financial reporting or mislead investors or the public. To do so would be contrary to every corporate moral and ethical standard imaginable. And, while UA's management could perhaps fairly be accused of making some stupid business decisions over the last few years, illegally misrepresenting the financial state of the company is not one of them.


User currently offlineRAMPRAT980 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 600 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8617 times:

We can go one about this for eons and on and on.
ENRON, WORLDCOM, GLOBAL CROSSING all fudged their numbers. Essentially they lied. Knowingly put false, I'm sorry, mis-stated info in their 10-K's hoping that things would get better and when things got worse it snowballed and they got caught. To me, A 10-K report is as truthful as a company wants it to be. And there are many who agree with me. Let UAL fall by the way side. Just brush them aside.



With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
25 Slider : Whatever. If the Old York Times is recognized as the best paper in America, then print journalism is dead. It's lost its influence because it's a slo
26 DeltaA380 : Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6): Interesting coming from the Out-of-Touch Times. The same question could be asked of the New York Times. If it fails, woul
27 COfaninBOS : Corporate welfare is a total waste. Somehow, everyone in America blames welfare moms for all our social ills when in reality, it's the corporate fathe
28 FlyHoss : I've said it before and I'll say it again; UAL can afford their pension obligations. However, nobody is forcing them to do so. It would require a sale
29 Commavia : Just for those still counting -- how many of those companies still exist in the same state and/or at the same size today?
30 Mariner : It is fascinating to watch the debating games people play on these boards. I assume they are educated to it at school? For example, that post of your
31 RAMPRAT980 : I don't know for sure if they all faded away but at the very least significantly downsized
32 Post contains links Schipholjfk : How to Succeed in Business, Without Really Succeeding http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/business/yourmoney/15air.html HERE'S a pop quiz for you freque
33 Schipholjfk : Okay Rush Limbaugh. That is why NY Times has a circulation over 1 million. Get a clue! An average American could not point at Washington DC on a map
34 Commavia : Exactly -- CEOs of any big companies, let alone airlines, can't just go around recklessly disregarding the law and business ethics and completely mis
35 RAMPRAT980 : AS I HAVE STATED EARLIER
36 Ib16uk : Im sure the 61,000 employees would miss UA As would UAs regular travellers I agree it is `criminal` what UA have done to their employees this week Am
37 Post contains images JayBird : the Times can stick it .. a few years ago they were relentless in knocking the company I work for (not travel related) .. if we "moved left" they said
38 SWISSER : hi Guys, (My mother works for UAL in BRU(brussels, belgium) since the beginning of service in 1991.) In Belgium we have a totally government controlle
39 Kahala777 : As did the thousands of employees of National Airlines, Sabena, Pan Am, Eastern, Midway, Vangaurd, Trans World, AOM, Air Liberte, UTA and so forth mi
40 Jacobin777 : given his backround, he's getting a paycut, not too mention, maybe an ulcer or two.....he really didn't need to take this job.....some people argue t
41 NADC10Fan : Not gonna grouse into the anti-NYT/pro-NYT argument; it's not my paper, and so I don't have a dog in that fight. I could take it or leave it. The foll
42 Kahala777 : Yes, in what decade? We can hope for three! To where? Victorville? Sure, keep United Airlines around so you can fly on a 777? That makes business sen
43 UA772IAD : I think that is really inappropriate for such a prestegious newspaper such as the New York Times to publish. Honestly, especially since they consider
44 Jetclipper747 : Ever since I started at UA (23 yrs ago) I wondered which self-righteous "journalist" didn't get a free upgrade they think they deserved by their lowl
45 Jetclipper747 : That's right. To hell with'em and may all the emplyees go on their way. Boy, why would you wish anyone to be out on the streets without a job? You ev
46 Jetclipper747 : The DC-8 was put up because it was the just moved there from the Pan Am hanger (now gone) that UA was refitting for their emergency training faciliti
47 Post contains images Jacobin777 : hmmm...lets see....considering we are a bit 4 1/2 years away to the next decade, I would assume it would be this decade...no, wait, given the rate at
48 DeltaA380 : Jetclipper747, Thanks for your informative response, I have known quite a few people who have worked for UA over the years and I think UA has lot's of
49 Post contains images RAMPRAT980 : Sorry if you're upset but there is too much fat out there and its time that some of it gets trimmed off. You are right there are many, many dediacted
50 NUair : I think 90% of Americans would agree with the Times on this one, mostly right wing republicans...After all what the writer is saying is that we need a
51 Cwapilot : If UA was a NY-based company, the Times would be singing a different tune. For all they care, anything not centered in NY can Drop Dead. They are all
52 SWISSER : Nothing to add or to comment, only welcome to my RR list!
53 IADguy73 : With Dumb and Dumber in office (for those of you right-wingers, yes I am referring to GW and the vice pres) it's a very naive assumption/suggestion.
54 Aeronuts : For all the armchair CEOs, who's calling for the demise of the #2 airline, while citing the lost of EA, PA, and TWA have had no impact. By the time th
55 Post contains images RAMPRAT980 : I have close ties to the oil industry too. I have three cars and two of them are SUV's.
56 Post contains images JGPH1A : UA - America's answer to Alitalia Why ? Best place for them, I'd say...
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