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BMI's Saudi Dreams Ending In Tatters.  
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7264 posts, RR: 57
Posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7765 times:

BMI have 'unofficially' postponed (read cancelled) their Saudi Arabian flights till early 2006 it seems. Looks like they never asked the Saudi Arabian government if they could fly there, and are now stuck in the middle of a bureaucratic nightmare.

Well, Bishop seems to be blaming the Saudi government anyway! From a route announcement - all Bishop is saying these days is “We hope to start services to Riyadh later this year”. Considering they also have also announced plans to go daily Mumbai BOM at the same time something else doesnt add up.

Dont Bmi have project managers and regulatory advisors.... Cant they just do someting properly for change???

So, the question that begs asking is what they are going to do with the A330 that will sit on the ground three days a week in Heathrow for the rest of the year?? Wonder if the rumours of A330’s to KIR weren’t all wrong!  Wink


The world is really getting smaller these days
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7626 times:

Oopsie - clearly the baksheesh ended up with the wrong Prince. Back to the drawing board  Smile

User currently offline7LBAC111 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7534 times:

I for one am shocked and saddened. How could BMI get this wrong. They NEVER get things wrong.....  banghead 

7LBAC111



Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
User currently offlineMyt332 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 9112 posts, RR: 70
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7489 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Thread starter):
what they are going to do with the A330 that will sit on the ground three days a week in Heathrow

Or send it back to MAN for the IAD run and use the B752 for something else. Maybe start a new route to IOM. I wouldn't put it past them.  Wink



One Life, Live it.
User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 2129 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7482 times:

As I have said before, no matter what they screw up it has stopped being a shock now!

User currently offlineCloud4000 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 641 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7437 times:

Honestly, I don't think BMI's management is all that sharp. Their strategy seems scatter-brained. And now this?

What else are they not telling us?



Boston, USA
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7264 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7336 times:

They also dismissed the security as a 'BA issue' For once they are probably right- Terrorists wont recognise the BD aircraft - considering BD now have at least 7 logos.

1 BD old (still on RJ's)
2 BD interim (fleet wide)
3 BD New
4 BD new interim (752's)
5 Star old (A320's)
6 Star New (A321)
7 BD ATR carribbean (ATR)

They also slammed BA for overnighting their crew in Kuwait for safety reasons. Obviously terrorists only attack English people in Dark blue uniforms with red scarves, and not those in Dark Blue uniforms with blue scarves. Should remember that!



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineMhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7312 times:

Whats happenening to the ATR now the LBA-LCY route has ended?


No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
User currently offline7LBAC111 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7271 times:

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 7):
Whats happenening to the ATR now the LBA-LCY route has ended?

It's due for the MAN-LAX route. Via GLA, WIC, KEF, YQX, EWR, ORD, DEN and LAS. Being refitted now in the BMI 3 class concept. 1F, 2J, 14Y.

7LBAC111



Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7264 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7115 times:

When did their LCY expansion plans come to a shuddering end?


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 2129 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7071 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 9):
When did their LCY expansion plans come to a shuddering end?

Just about when it became a money maker I would guess, seems to be the norm for BMI!


User currently offlineGofly From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 1727 posts, RR: 38
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7055 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 6):



Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 8):

 rotfl 

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 9):
When did their LCY expansion plans come to a shuddering end?

Would that be when their LCY-LBA service didn't turn out any decent loads? I can't really see why, they did no advertising, leased a 300 million year old prop aircraft (to fit nicely with their jet fleet) and just to make sure they didn't get anything wrong, they painted it in another scheme  Wink



Living the high life on my ex-Airliners.net Moderator pension...
User currently offlineEK156 From United Arab Emirates, joined May 2005, 765 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6927 times:

What airports do BMI serve in the gulf region? Do they serve Dubai?

User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3768 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6899 times:

EK156, currently Bmi only serve only US and Carrabean destionations and soon (or have started) Mumbai/Bombay!

Rob!


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6827 times:

Woops, we forgot to apply for authority?

You gotta be kidding me, its getting harder and harder to take BMI seriously.


User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6677 times:

What airports do BMI serve in the gulf region? Do they serve Dubai?


None although I'm sure there has been much talk from them about starting flights to Dubai.


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4481 times:

Well I was out and about yesterday, if you were wondering why I didn't respond to a BMI thread.....

When the Saudi flights were first announced, it came about very quickly after BA's announcement that they were dropping them There were some noises about VS wanting the routes, and at the time I expressed some surprise in another thread that they got the licence so quickly from the authorities.

As the service was clearly going ahead, I naturally (like everyone else) assumed they must have got the go-ahead.

So now I ask the question how anyone can take the management of this airline seriously any more? How can an international airline annouce such a major route that they are unable to fly.

BMI are now left with a long haul network out of LHR of only one city without even operating daily flights. This is pretty ridiculous. I know there is the view that a lot of people here are merely armchair CEOs, but it is no coincedence that many of us who work in the industry are questioning BMI's strategy, or should I say strategies  Wink

I get the impression that BD were hoping for rather more from the India negotiations (even though they were the least likely to get a significant portion of what was on offer). Having got a less than daily frequency, they clearly jumped at the Saudi flights when they thought there was an opportunity there. The danger is that they could lose out to VS when the traffic rights are negotiated for next year.

There was another thread last week about BMI identifying a hit list of longhaul opportunities out of LHR. Hopefully for them they actually make the effort to get the neccessary authority to fly any of those routes before we have another repeat of this instance. Sadly for BMI, they are always likely to be third choice behind BA and VS in such negotiations, leaving them with a few crumbs every time and little that could be used to build up a significant intercontinental network.

Sad to say, a once good little airline, that still has a excellent product, is turning into a directionless shambles. A shame for the hard working people on the gorund and in the aircraft that the management is leading them nowhere.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineBAPILOT2B From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 927 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4339 times:

Juat a quick reminder the ATR is no longer with BMI, thank god! Its moved on and is operating flights for somebody else with no bmi markings, only it still has the tropical scene on! Appeared at MAN on sunday with the callsign 'Hiway'. At least we can write of the ATR operating MAN-LAS  Wink


Jason Nicholls - v1images
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7264 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4285 times:

Quoting Cornish (Reply 16):
BMI are now left with a long haul network out of LHR of only one city without even operating daily flights.

That they sacrificed their Manchester long haul integrity for...

I wonder how radical BD will with their major announcement this week.

To be successful in the long term, they need to be as radical and ruthless as Aer Lingus on their short haul network, and as innovative as Virgin on their long haul network.

This includes re-merging WW and BD by absorbing BD shorthaul into the WW cost base, selling regional (to flybe?), and focusing on a proper long haul product.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4245 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 18):
wonder how radical BD will with their major announcement this week.

Radical or Ridiculous ??  Wink

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 18):
To be successful in the long term, they need to be as radical and ruthless as Aer Lingus on their short haul network, and as innovative as Virgin on their long haul network.

This includes re-merging WW and BD by absorbing BD shorthaul into the WW cost base, selling regional (to flybe?), and focusing on a proper long haul product.

The key word you used being "focusing". this is BD's biggest problem at the moment. They have no focus whatsoever, and its no wonder they are in a mess. look at those airlines which are particularly successful and you can see that in much of the business they are focused on a particularly strategy, style, customer base or way of working. BD has none of that - it is trying to appeal to everybody and the result is that it is not appealing to anybody ANY MORE than other rivals are.

Hopefuly for their sake, their major announcement will make it clear that the iarline finally knows what it wants to be and how it clearly intends to get there. However I suspect not.....



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2203 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4180 times:

I would have a question to all those with some insight into customer behaviour in the UK market: who flies BD, and why? Do they tap into the valuable segments?

My hypothesis is that they don't have a base of regular high yield customers. Look at it this way:

- LHR-based pax: easier for them to go on BA, more choice of flights. BD can only compete on the AMS, BRU and domestic UK routes, to a lesser extent on the CDG route. But then, why should people choose BD, there aren't any better than BA. And for the CDG route, they cannot really compete with AF and BA as these two carriers carry a lot of online connex passengers. There may be the odd Star Alliance feed, but that's small in comparison to BA and AF. So the LHR market of loyal high yield travelers is pretty much gone.
- MAN-based pax: with the exception of those going to Chicago, again no reason or even possibility to fly BD. BD's network out of MAN is very small and only served with small planes (except the LHR route, but then see above), and there are more and better choices with other airlines. Its intercont network is quite a scattered affair: BD hasn't managed to leverage its success and good reputation on the MAN-USA routes, but keeps toying with downgrading its services to leased 757s and opening routes out of LHR. So the MAN market is not in BD's pockets either.
- Other routes: the other routes are either serving very small niche markets, that may be lucrative, but on a small scale (ABZ-NWI could be one, I don't know) - or they are just small and not lucrative. How can BD build a base of loyal high yield customers on routes like Edinburgh-Stornoway?

So, in sum, I have the hypothesis that almost in any market that BD tries to compete, pax have better choices. When BD is picked, it's because of lacking alternatives or it's by people who do the one odd trip once in a while and who - by the small number of their trips - aren't loyal to any airline at all. So how can such an airline be successful?


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7264 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4126 times:

Quoting Mozart (Reply 20):
So, in sum, I have the hypothesis that almost in any market that BD tries to compete, pax have better choices. When BD is picked, it's because of lacking alternatives or it's by people who do the one odd trip once in a while and who - by the small number of their trips - aren't loyal to any airline at all. So how can such an airline be successful?

Two things you forgot:
The lack of slots at Heathrow, and demand exceeding supply.

The BD loyalty card is excellent also - very easy to earn miles.

Quoting Mozart (Reply 20):
So how can such an airline be successful?

They arent successful - even with the second largest heathrow slot base, they still lose money.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineBilly From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2000, 895 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

This Saudi operation isn't dead yet.

User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4103 times:

Quoting Mozart (Reply 20):
LHR-based pax: easier for them to go on BA, more choice of flights. BD can only compete on the AMS, BRU and domestic UK routes, to a lesser extent on the CDG route. But then, why should people choose BD, there aren't any better than BA. And for the CDG route, they cannot really compete with AF and BA as these two carriers carry a lot of online connex passengers. There may be the odd Star Alliance feed, but that's small in comparison to BA and AF. So the LHR market of loyal high yield travelers is pretty much gone.

BD used to have a very loyal business customer base out of the UK - and LHR in particular, based on a good product and a useful network of intra-European business destinations. Increasingly though tey have lost these customers as they have cut many of those destinations (in their own right) out of the network - Germany flights are all code-shares on LH for example. They also cut many of the frequencies on thse business routes (such as MAD for example) and have increasingly replaced these flights with leisure routes.

But LHR isn't really seen by the public as a short haul leisure airport for flights to Med resorts and cities. apparnetly these flights do well, but surely they can't make as much money as a good, focused, user-friendly business product out of the same airport.

So the business market in London has moved increasinlgy away from BD to BA and others as BD is in a large part no longer offering what they want or need.

They have an opprtunity at MAN, due to BA's weaker position, but they don't choose to exploit it, as they are hell-bent on becoming a long haul carrier out of LHR. But LHR already has BA and VS offering that - what could BD offer that they can't.

And worried about low cost travel from the regions, they produced BMI baby to counter this - but of course it was always going to have higher costs than easy and Ryanair, so it is unable to compte with them effectively and has been driven out of markets such as LGW.

Put simply, BD doesn't know what its customer base is at present- so it doesn't know what it needs to do to serve them best and retain them, while attracting new passengers.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4083 times:

Quoting Billy (Reply 22):
This Saudi operation isn't dead yet.

Nope, but they've still got to figure out what to do with the A330 three days a week. Its a bit late to come up with a new route in the meantime and expect passengers to book it - certainly they'll have missed the summer peak now.

Also there's no guarantee they'll get Saudi rights - what if VS nip in and beat them to it, by offering a daily frequency for example.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
25 Leskova : If it hasn't changed within the last day or two, the flights to HAJ are still operated by BMI with LH codesharing on them. Regards, Frank
26 Cornish : Oh is HAJ still a BMI flight ? I thought they'd all gone over to LH some time back - certainly the likes of FRA and CGN did.
27 Monkeyboi : If I remember rightly it was the same when they received their first A330's a few years back. They didn't know what to do with them. BMI only began lo
28 BestWestern : HAJ is operated by BD on behalf of Lufthansa from terminal 2. It is not a BD flight - it has also lost a daily frequency.
29 NASBWI : Umm, you're joking right? It can't cost much more than 7 million to purchase a used ATR, much less lease it. After all, new ones sell for around 12-1
30 7LBAC111 : Actually not! BD815/816/819/820 are operated by BD mainline from T1. At least according to Sabre that is. 7LBAC111
31 Billy : This Riyadh rumour appears to have no corroboration from any other source. Perhaps we could have a link? I hear to the contrary.
32 Cornish : If you go onto the BMI website and try and book Ryiadh, you'll find it in the drop down menu. however whatever date you put in it tells you that the
33 7LBAC111 : If you want to go doubting a highly respected member of this forum, have the sense of mind to provide a source to where you hear to the contrary. Pot
34 Billy : 7LBAC111, Whereas my sources are real people in BMI, BestWestern's source appears to be a press report. If we had a link then we could come to our own
35 JGPH1A : BD have published schedules for BD775 operating Tu, Th, Su LHR-RUH starting 01SEP05. The flight is available for sale (at least in Amadeus).
36 BestWestern : Try the BD CEO and Deputy CEO. As of last week, they dont even have a potential launch date, nor are they sure they will actually fly the route anymo
37 Billy : Best Western - short answer is 'no'. But it is as good as on. You cannot give a start date if you have not got the approvals. MB is merely being prude
38 Post contains images Cornish : Still its not all bad news for BMI - they do have one prestige new international destination still going ahead. courtesy of BMI baby they are of cours
39 7LBAC111 : And in Sabre. However I refer to this: Where are they obtaining the aircraft? How do they propose to suceed to RUH if not daily, and still go daily t
40 Col : Cornish, Has Cornwall lifted the visa requirements for people North of Bristol?
41 7LBAC111 : How can you dispute something without providing some form of evidence or proof to the contrary. Jeez!
42 Billy : 7LBAC, I can assure you that my contacts are only concerned with the commerical and legal side of such issues. I have learned the difference between a
43 Post contains images Cornish : Yes, we've widened the programme to allow more people from the UK to enter Cornwall without requiring visas. Scots of course still have to queue up a
44 Col : Cornish, I thought the Scottish restriction was lifted upon payment of the litre of Glenfiddich to customs inspector on arrival. Similar to the Lagos
45 Post contains images Cornish : Oh yes - but that's all unofficial of course
46 LO231 : Also according to Galileo: 23MAY 23MAY 1...... LHR HAJ 0640 0910 BD 815 319 21MAY .....6. LHR HAJ 0640 0910 BD 815 ER4 20MAY 123456. LHR HAJ 0640 091
47 BestWestern : Anyway - back to my very first question... So, if September is the launch date... and the 330 sits on the ground for three days a week for four months
48 Monkeyboi : knowing bmi they will look for some obscure charter work for it.
49 Post contains images Cornish : LHR-NQY ??
50 Post contains images Gofly : Sorry, yes I was joking, I was referring to the aircrafts age. Which wasn't young Please, don't give them ideas. If U2 or FR were to expand at EMA, t
51 BlueShamu330s : Billy You sound like a particular exec. who used to be very fond in bmi of shouting like a petulant child "It will happen, it will happen." If you wor
52 Col : BlueShamu330s, Well put. From a passenger point of view I am not happy either. Checked on April's loads from the CAA out of MAN, and the following is
53 Post contains links Crosswind : BlueShamu330s I don't belive Billy has any particular connection to bmi. 7LBAC111 Billy has one of the most accurate track records on airliners.net of
54 HZ747300 : An A330 would have too much capacity on any Saudi-UK route. They should instead apologize for not following protocal, and reapply for the route using
55 Cornish : Well said BlueShamu. Agree 100% In my old job I used to work a lot with the planning and route development people at BD, back in the days when they se
56 Billy : blueshamu, Sorry, I do not know who you are talking about. I have no BMI employment record. Dangerous to make assumptions. Thread dead, I think.
57 BestWestern : To be fair - BD are going through major schedule changes at the moment. BD's problem does not lie in the structural intregrity of the fleet, or the w
58 Cornish : You could also add VS - with its slick marketing and innovation that catches the public's attention. Bd has a big problem with public perception and
59 Post contains images BlueShamu330s : Billy No assumption intended; merely a question as your post was very reminiscent of said person who also, incidentally, would often use anonymous for
60 Post contains links BestWestern : Which is reflected in the recent Barclaycard Business traveller review http://www.companybarclaycard.co.uk/...centre/tibs/tibs2004_05_survey.pdf Top
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