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US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan  
User currently offlineAeroPiggot From United States of America, joined May 2005, 283 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11405 times:

Well, once again Airbus figures out how to sell a new model to the airlines. The article below mentioned that in return for the loan Us Airways and American West would be purchasing the A350. Airbus proves to be more innovative, and I bet Leahy as something to do with this. Boeing should offer this guy, the CEO job??? Big grin

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050515/us_airways_america_west.html?.v=4


A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13556 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11354 times:
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Airbus proves to be more innovative

You mean by BUYING orders from customers?  Wink



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12503 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11339 times:
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Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 1):
You mean by BUYING orders from customers?

Well, according to lots of the armchair CEOs here, Airbus has been giving their planes away for years, so this is the next logical step!  sarcastic 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineDeltaWings From Switzerland, joined Aug 2004, 1294 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11276 times:

With what do they want to replace USs 762s with? Isnt the A358 to much of a plane for that? Im shure the 783/8 would have been better as a replacement.


~DeltaWings



Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
User currently offlinePennPal From United States of America, joined May 2004, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11176 times:

Didn't Airbus do something similar in the mid '70s with Eastern to introduce the A300 to the North American market?? Seems to me the airline was able to procure about 23 aircraft dirt cheap...

User currently offlineAeroPiggot From United States of America, joined May 2005, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11130 times:

Quote:
You mean by BUYING orders from customers?

My only question is, why Boeing didn't see this opportunity. With these carriers right in their "backyard"???



A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
User currently offlineAKelley728 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2191 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11112 times:

Some more information in this earlier (now locked) thread:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2113602/


User currently offlineQQFLYER28 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11092 times:

Maybe Boeing took a look at the opportunity and decided to pass. The merger of these two carries is a financial risk to all of the lenders involved.

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11076 times:

Quoting PennPal (Reply 4):
Didn't Airbus do something similar in the mid '70s with Eastern to introduce the A300 to the North American market?? Seems to me the airline was able to procure about 23 aircraft dirt cheap...

That transaction was not really the same, back then Airbus was sitting with many manufactured A300s that had no customers (white-tails)......Airbus made a deal with Eastern that allowed Eastern to fly 4 A300s for one winter season (1978 I believe) on its route system for a nominal leasing price - Eastern could return the A300s with no penalities. In other words, EA could try out the A300 and see how it liked it. EA went on to place a big order for the A300 at very sharp terms - this was all before anyone took Airbus very seriously. Did EA really need another 250 pax jet at the time (remember, EA also had a big 1011 fleet)? Not really, but thats another story. This was a good move by Airbus and very different from what is going on now. Remember, Douglas did the same thing with TW and AA with the MD80; the MD80 got off to a slow start and McDD allowed both TW and AA to try the type - each got 15 aircraft on favorable lease terms which allowed the aircraft to be returned at any time. Each went on to become big MD80 customers and the program was jump-started.

In the current situation, Airbus seems to be offering bankrupcty exit financing to the merged HP/US (and now there is a rumor that UA also has a like offer) that is contingent up or linked to these airlines placing orders for the A350.


User currently offlineFLAIRPORT From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10993 times:

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 3):
With what do they want to replace USs 762s with? Isnt the A358 to much of a plane for that? Im shure the 783/8 would have been better as a replacement.


~DeltaWings

You'd be suprised, but slip a company 250 million Washingtons and they'll find a way to make it work!

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
In the current situation, Airbus seems to be offering bankrupcty exit financing to the merged HP/US (and now there is a rumor that UA also has a like offer) that is contingent up or linked to these airlines placing orders for the A350.

I'l ltell you something, I had thought the industry was recovering. USAirways seemed better, and Untied seemed to be coming back. What happened in the past few months to screw these 2 companies. I hope this merger works out well as it will allow some legecies (Delta and AA namely, but also United) to recover and it will also help ease capacity. I also hope United recovers as well. Is there a way United could be involved in the merger at all?


User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10964 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 1):
You mean by BUYING orders from customers?

HAHA...they can't win an order so they will buy American carriers loan them Airbus money to buy Airbus a/c???

Guess they need some sorta deal to jump start there almost dead A350 drawings?

Quoting QQFLYER28 (Reply 7):
Maybe Boeing took a look at the opportunity and decided to pass. The merger of these two carries is a financial risk to all of the lenders involved.

Yeah that and Airbus loses on the deal the French gov. will most likely pick up the pieces and reimburse Airbus.



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10887 times:

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 5):
My only question is, why Boeing didn't see this opportunity. With these carriers right in their "backyard"???

Boeing is not in the business of airline ownership or operations. They sell or lease aircraft, they do not provide financing of airlines themselves.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
In the current situation, Airbus seems to be offering bankrupcty exit financing to the merged HP/US (and now there is a rumor that UA also has a like offer) that is contingent up or linked to these airlines placing orders for the A350.

Providing this type of financing is very risky with the domestic overcapacity issues facing US carriers like US/HP/UAL.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10841 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 11):
Boeing is not in the business of airline ownership or operations. They sell or lease aircraft, they do not provide financing of airlines themselves.

What happened with Hawaiian then?


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10763 times:

Boeing didn't provide capital to HA. Boeing has leased aircraft to HA. When HA went to Boeing asking to renegotiate their existing leases, Boeing wasn't interested. HA wasn't bluffing, and filed CH11. Apples and oranges.

User currently offlineOuboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4589 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10702 times:

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 3):
With what do they want to replace USs 762s with? Isnt the A358 to much of a plane for that? Im shure the 783/8 would have been better as a replacement.

The 767-200s will be replaced by the A330-200s coming in a few years. The 350s will more than likely be expansion aircraft since they are still 5+ years away. A lot is going to change between now and then.

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 5):
My only question is, why Boeing didn't see this opportunity. With these carriers right in their "backyard"???

I think you seem to forget the relationship between US Airways and Boeing. It all came down to Flight 427 going down in Pittsburgh. Boeing blamed the airline for the crash happen, (then) USAir answered with the immediate cancellation of 40 737 and 10 757 confirmed orders and announced the 400 aircraft deal with Airbus.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10683 times:

Brilliant Airbus, pay airlines money to fly your planes.

Its great advertising strategy  Yeah sure


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10656 times:

Quoting PennPal (Reply 4):

My only question is, why Boeing didn't see this opportunity. With these carriers right in their "backyard"???

Maybe Boeing simply does not think lending $250 million to the combined HP/US is a wise investment. Its a lot of money to invest into a newly formed airline - and remember, HP and US have 3 bankrupcty proceeding between them in recent years and many unresolved financial issues, not to mention the difficulties of merging the two carriers to overcome. The loan has a good amount of risk associated with it, maybe Airbus is willing to take the risk and Boeing is not.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25161 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10623 times:
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Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 16):
maybe Airbus is willing to take the risk and Boeing is not.

So - in review:

(i) Airbus, a non-American company, which is owed millions by US Airways - is doing something bad in trying to protect those millions.

(ii) GECAS, an American company, which is owed millions by US Airways - and is also trying to protect those millions - is not mentioned.

Yeh. I got the picture.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10618 times:

I would like to look at this as a win win situation for all parties involved.

US/HP will get extra needed funding, to keep them aloft. This intern will save thousands of jobs.

Airbus will definitely get an order. Who says it HAS to be the A350, I bet you there's a Claus in there that they could order any aircraft they want.

I dont see it useful for US/HP to have A350's at the moment, but who knows time will tell.



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10556 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 13):
Boeing didn't provide capital to HA. Boeing has leased aircraft to HA. When HA went to Boeing asking to renegotiate their existing leases, Boeing wasn't interested. HA wasn't bluffing, and filed CH11. Apples and oranges.

Absolutely apples and apples. Boeing is an investor in HA period.

Airbus may do the same to:
1. Prevent a bunch of used Airbus aircraft hit the market if US sinks.
2. Secure a customer for the future.
3. Invest their profits and get a return on it.

It's a normal business. Remember when Boeing bought back Airbus aircraft to sell 777? Yeah apples and oranges  sarcastic .


User currently offlineAeroPiggot From United States of America, joined May 2005, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10501 times:

Quote:
from Dutchjet: Maybe Boeing simply does not think lending $250 million to the combined HP/US is a wise investment. Its a lot of money to invest into a newly formed airline - and remember, HP and US have 3 bankrupcty proceeding between them in recent years and many unresolved financial issues, not to mention the difficulties of merging the two carriers to overcome. The loan has a good amount of risk associated with it, maybe Airbus is willing to take the risk and Boeing is not.

Again $250 M might not be a bad investment, if the return could be Billions in airplane orders, and take away a very important Airbus operator in the US. At least that is my thinking process here. I am also aware of the spat between US Air (Stephen Wolf, he did the same thing while at UA with the A320 order) and Boeing, it seems like a good opportunity to repair that dispute also??



A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10454 times:
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Wow.....talk about throwing good money after bad....


I wonder when the investors at Airbus will raise a flag on this idea...the airlines still have the same route structure, same union labor issues and more debt, even though they will be merged.

Who else doubts if they'll consider any orders from such an arrangement strong enough for the purposes of giving the ok for production?



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10436 times:

They won't have the same route structure, obviously, and they'll probably add significant connecting the dots sorts of things.

In terms of a domestic network, it'll be stronger than Continental's, for example.

N


User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1561 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10436 times:

I have two questions:

1. If Airbus have $250 million to give away why don't they put it into discounts at a more viable airline to win an order?

2. Is this really Airbus money, or is it Govt money? This would be a very smart way for Europe Inc to assist Airbus, without it being a subsidy!

Ruscoe


User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3269 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10396 times:

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
Well, once again Airbus figures out how to sell a new model to the airlines. The article below mentioned that in return for the loan Us Airways and American West would be purchasing the A350.

It's America West! How do you get the heading correct but screw up the rest????



.......
25 NYC777 : Let's see..a $250mm loan (adding debt to the b/s) buy 20 A350 (assuming $150mm per plane) $3bn that needs to financed (read: more debt) No cash reserv
26 Mariner : NYC777: Let's see: the deal only goes ahead if there is at least $500 million in new funding. Of which the majority will come from PAR Capital. Some (
27 Ruscoe : NYC777, You forgot to add that Airbus needs to spend 5 billion or so Euro to develop it also, and it does not appear to have wide customer appeal. Rus
28 Post contains images SFORunner : EU governments will spend money to "subsidize" the development of the A350. Airbus will spend money to "subsidize" US Airways and America West, United
29 NYC777 : You missed the point. I'm looking at it from the Airbus-HP/US point of view. Airbus will commit to a plane that doesn't appear to have any customer a
30 Aloha717200 : It seems to me that Airbus will do ANYTHING to sell their A350 now. These little "business deals" are making my blood boil. I just saw the UA thread a
31 NYC777 : Absolutely but this is the only way that Airbus feels it could compete given all the recent big wins by Boeing.
32 Mariner : Why do you ignore all the other investors, from PAR Capitial through Air Wisconsin, through Republic through Air Canada. And GE. You do not explain h
33 AJRfromSYR : How many firm orders does Airbus have right now for the A350?
34 Glideslope : Holy COW!! I had no idea Airbus was in such dire straits. If I were an EU Taxpayer I would be appalled at this unimaginable waste of my hard earned mo
35 Aloha717200 : Compete by cheating. Yeah, that's real ethical. "We'll give you 250 million if you order A350s, and then we'll tell the news media that our plane is c
36 AeroPiggot : OK "Jmc1975" I stand corrected.
37 NYC777 : They're making HP/US commit to buying 20 A#%0. Do the yhave the cash NO! How do they get the money to buy these planes...issue debt or get bank finan
38 NYC777 : 0 Only a MoU from Air Europa for 10. They haven't even decided to go with development.[Edited 2005-05-16 23:50:28]
39 AJRfromSYR : What's so unethical about this? I imagine Airbus knows the A350 won't stack up to the 787, so they are doing what they can to sell it. Giving 250mil t
40 Aloha717200 : That's what makes it unethical. They are bribing airlines to buy an inferior product.
41 NYC777 : Though it would be a win for Boeing. It commits Airbus to producing an inferior product which won't sell in too many numbers vis a vis the 787. Howeve
42 Mariner : Now I am completely confused. Until this morning, Wall Street was extremely against the merger. HP shares have been taking a major hit since it first
43 AJRfromSYR : If the product is inferior the price will be adjusted id assume. You don't pay Ruth Chris prices for a Big Mac. EDIT: Hence the $250mil "discount"[Ed
44 NYC777 : Ok I don't no what you're smoking but let me know who your dealer is. I never seperated any debt load from another. All I said is that to purchase th
45 Mariner : Yes, like all the other loans - which will have to be repaid. Nor is the Airbus loan actual money, but goods and services which can be worked off, no
46 NYC777 : Then you agreed that this deal will add significantly to HP/US already heavy debt load mainly because they will have to purchase $3bn worth of planes
47 NYC777 : Worked off? How? They're not going to work off anything if they're saddled with more debt, a route structure that is unfavorable to them because of L
48 Mariner : No. Given the numbers we are talking about, $250 million is but a splash in the pond and can be worked off, not paid off. The only you should be worr
49 Avek00 : The investment proposal is actually a very SMART move from Airbus - both HP and US are at risk of liquidation within the next twelve months, and the d
50 DL021 : I thought that the exclusive contracts were deemed illegal several years ago and the airlines who had them with Boeing had to tear them up. Any news
51 Post contains images NYC777 : I don't think you are reading any of my posts correctly. HP/US will be saddled with $3bn of debt when they finance the purchase of the A350. GECAS wi
52 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Deleted, because frankly I'm getting lost on whom is financing what for whom . Right now I'm at Col Mustard financing a Revolver in the Study. -Dave[E
53 NYC777 : If HP/US goes ch. 11 (assuming they emerge) then another trip there would kill the airline. There is no way that they would survive and then all the
54 Mariner : If they are leased, then GECAS is buying them and leasing them on to HP/US. Since the details of the deal have not been disclosed, neither you nor I
55 NYC777 : No where in the news reports is it said that GECAS is purchasing the aircraft but HP/US will. Even if GECAS leased the aircraft to HP/US the lease ra
56 Slider : Especially since it won't be built by then... ;-( It's low-risk for Airbus, but it still isn't the right thing to do, IMO. It's tantamount to reinser
57 Mham001 : All the info I've seen say the A350 lists about $187mm(at this time).
58 Mariner : And what Air Wisconsin is doing isn't? And what Republic is doing isn't? And what Air Cananda/ACE Holdings is doing isn't? And what PAR Capital is do
59 PlanesNTrains : Despite the obvious reasons, I think it is because it's the supplier controlling the customer to some degree. Whether or not that is legal or illegal
60 Post contains links Mariner : You mean, as in Boeing and Airtran? http://www.prnewswire.com/airtran/20010416b.shtml mariner
61 Daedaeg : I absolutely agree. It is in Airbus' best interest that these two carriers survive. If they don't, not only will they have a slow selling A350, but a
62 Stirling : And Airbus is the "Bad-Guy" here because.......? Protecting the A320 line is in the best interests of Airbus. As far as I can tell, Airbus does not ha
63 LMP737 : As someone who went through the AA-TWA "merger" I hope that America West reconsiders.
64 Gigneil : The airline knows what its getting into. If it doesn't like the terms, it doesn't have to take the money. Its not cheating, its not unethical, its no
65 AirFrnt : Actually it does. It is one of the largest creditors for both. me, I don't have a problem with it. But everyone who invests in Airbus needs to realiz
66 Flybyguy : I would have to agree. Boeing has always been a rich airline company that was too short-sighted to see potential in anything, but legacy airlines...
67 Chgoflyer : yeah and they went broke just like US is going too.
68 PlanesNTrains : I have no argument there. I don't think it's a secret that that took place. Whether anyone here has a problem with that or not, you'd have to ask the
69 PlaneSmart : Will it be OK for GECAS and B to provide loans? Just hold your horses, and see who else is providing funding as part of the industry-wide re-structure
70 Atmx2000 : Um, let's not pretend that their goal is to help the American economy or keeping thousands at work.
71 Mariner : If that is what it achieves, what is your problem with it? Or would you rather those workers be out of a job, on the streets? mariner
72 Thrust : I really respect Airbus for what they are doing.....let us hope they do the same for UA....for once I do not care whether this will hurt Boeing or not
73 Atmx2000 : Because, I'm skeptical that it will. What is being done to improve profitability? If it improves the overall health of the airline industry, yes.
74 Falcon84 : Maybe Boeing has enough confidence in their product that they don't have to give money to a carrier, so a carrier can then "buy" their product? Sound
75 Flyboyaz : I think he meant in terms of coverage of the U.S. CO strength is limited to the eastern seaboard, gulf area, texas and to a certain extent, the midwe
76 Mariner : Puttting a man who knows something about running airlines as CEO will be a start. Then why are you not as cross with Air Wisconsin or Republic, or th
77 Carpethead : US/HP could order a ton of A319/320 to replace 733/734 in their fleet. Any long-haul aircraft order would be small compared to this order. This way Bo
78 LAS757300 : I've only read half of the posts on this thread. Reading the rest of them would be pointless as the whole thread seems to repeat this same b.s. line a
79 Atmx2000 : I've said it before, that these companies are protecting their own interests. I don't think they are helping the airline industry. I think GECAS coul
80 Mariner : Yes, that is what companies do. That is what Boeing did when they invested in Airtran. Airtran, of course, bought too many 737's and is now talking a
81 Atmx2000 : I'm not saying that comapnies shouldn't. But it should be pointed out that Boeing invested in Airtran well before 9/11 and before it became obvious t
82 Mariner : In order for this deal even to have a hope of happening, GECAS has to make it as sweet as possible - to HP. So I would suggest - only suggest - that
83 AirNZ : What has 9/11 got to do with it??
84 Atmx2000 : The current difficulties in the US aviation market are partly the result of lingering effects of 9/11. While traffic levels are up, they aren't high
85 DOC : I beleive this is a very good idea from Airbus
86 YULMRS : So, lets think of an airbus reader reading this post ... "These Americans don't want our money, so don't loan it ... " Just a question for some people
87 DOC : In the french newspaper of to-day, Air Canada would help Us Airways.
88 Revelation : It's as if you were in personal bankruptcy, and GM offers to loan you $5k towards getting out of bankruptcy if you agree to buy a $40k car five years
89 Columba : In the eyes of some people here Airbus can do nothing but wrong. Even if it is very a generous offer to help some of their "own" companies survive pe
90 Post contains images Solnabo : My hat off for Airbus doing this, and talking about UA n Airbus: I strongly doubt ANY US carrier get the 388! Hell, US dont even got the B 773/ER, onl
91 Post contains images SNATH : ...and AC. Or was AC's recent Boeing order so traumatic that you're still in denial? Tony
92 Post contains images Solnabo : Tony, since when did Canada become USA? Duuh..... Micke/SE
93 Post contains images SNATH : I never claimed that. But, according to your previous post, Canada was either in Europe, Middle East, or Asia! Tony
94 Post contains images Solnabo : IIRC nor South America got them, but I promise to keep my trap shut when AC starts to fly the contraption! Happy with that? Micke//SE
95 NYC777 : Boy you are envious of all the wins Boeing has scored, aren't you?
96 SNATH : Oh, please don't! We love your comments! They are always very amusing! Tony
97 Post contains links YULQC : And it seems that AC is interested too. They may offer 150$ millions CAD in exchange for maintenance contracts. Sorry in French only, tried to find an
98 Post contains images F4N : To all: The above is probably one of the most moronic things I've ever read in my 50+ years. Offering cash to floundering carriers that have been in,
99 Justapassenger : YULQC (reply 97): Yesterday Bloomberg TV also mentioned that AC was part of the deal in exchange for performing maintenance. Bloomberg did not mention
100 Post contains images UAMAYBACH1239 : I'm pretty sure Boeing did see this happening, and made a very wise choice not to get involved. To make a deal with these airlines , expecting their
101 A999 : Solnabo A little off topic, but.... Since when did you jump the border????
102 Post contains images Solnabo : Just for today, to salute Norway´s Nationaldag. Micke//SE
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