Scbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 11345 posts, RR: 50 Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 days ago) and read 11748 times:
Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 1): Interesting they had signed an MOU for 737-900 and then Airbus made a counter offer AFTER the deal was "done". I think they will stick with Boeing.
It was reported in this week's Flight International that the MOU was of the "loose, non-binding" variety, and was for 737-900X (if such a beast really exists).
They have received bids from both Airbus and Boeing and are currently negotiating on price. A winner may be selected by the end of the month.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6172 posts, RR: 74 Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 days ago) and read 11596 times:
Interesting they had signed an MOU for 737-900 and then Airbus made a counter offer AFTER the deal was "done". I think they will stick with Boeing.
and...
It was reported in this week's Flight International that the MOU was of the "loose, non-binding" variety, and was for 737-900X (if such a beast really exists)
They actually initially announced that they've ordered 40 of them or so, valued at a ridiculous price... It was in the newspapers here.
It was only after "someone" raised the improbability of such orders being signed that quickly that they then conceded that "Airbus was still revising their offer"...
Then someone mentioned that it couldn't be an order if Airbus is still offering...
Lo-and-behold... Lion then announced that the original order was actually an MOU...
So, where did ATW get the news from? Boeing? Airbus? Or "Antara" news agency or the local newspapers in Indonesia?
This is an airline that announced that GECAS is a Boeing subsidiary and CIT leasing is a McDD subsidiary, and CIT leased them MD90s (and guess what, CIT said "We do not have any MD90s in our portfolio") and that the 734 and MD90 deal is a sign of not only the financial community's confidence in them, but also the manufacturers... *yea rite*
Then you got the "Fly in our 1996 built planes" advert when their youngest plane was 1994 and the average fleet was 1985 and their sole 1996 MD80 had gone to another airline the year before...
Earlier this month, they had another incident in WAAA/Makassar where a tyre burst occured... and guess what, they accused the airport of "putting sharp objects" on the runway!
Pax numbers down, crew leaving, MX nightmare (overhauled planes impounded for not being paid), hotels demanding cash payments (no more hotel credits for JT in a lot of places), incidents about once a month... Do they really have the money to cover even the lease downpayments/deposits for such an order?
"To replace their MD80"????? Well MD80s going to "subsidiary" Wings Air (5 already there), and Lion is increasing their 734 fleet... Wings will also shut down their Dash8 ops due to falling loads, falling reliability.
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
CrossChecked From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 251 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10430 times:
To those who say that the Boeing 737-NG family of aircraft is better than the Airbus A320 family of aircraft, I would love to hear your reasoning.
We hear too many A Vs. B wars on here taking place between the resident pre-schoolers but I am yet to read WHY people prefer one to the other.
I'm an Airbus fan myself. I find the aircraft (particularly the narrow-bodies) far, far more comfortable, smoother, quieter and they tend to keep looking relatively new for some time, whereas Boeings tend to age (atleast in the cabins) more quickly.
NorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2383 posts, RR: 5 Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10341 times:
Quoting CrossChecked (Reply 13): I find the aircraft (particularly the narrow-bodies) far, far more comfortable, smoother, quieter and they tend to keep looking relatively new for some time, whereas Boeings tend to age (atleast in the cabins) more quickly.
I'd agree with the quieter, as for comfort, I never notice the difference. I think the cabin interiors have more to do with the airline that installs them and less with Boeing/Airbus. Does the noise have to do with the engines? I think that B6 operates with the IAE engines while WN has CFM engines. My question is, are the IAE engines quieter than the CFM ones?
Co757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 94 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9965 times:
Quoting CrossChecked (Reply 13): I'm an Airbus fan myself. I find the aircraft (particularly the narrow-bodies) far, far more comfortable, smoother, quieter and they tend to keep looking relatively new for some time, whereas Boeings tend to age (atleast in the cabins) more quickly.
I'll have to disagree. But I have flown the A320 many of times and they sound and feel like they are going to fall apart on take off. I think the NG 737's are a much better choice. Overall Cabin comfort is better and more attractive, Quieter, maneuverability and handling is better, fuel effciency, and the body style and sleekness. Hope they stick with Boeing.
Klkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 803 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9903 times:
From a passengers standpoint there isn't much difference in terms of overall comfort or quietness between the two.
However, I have noticed when flying UA and HP A319/A320s (the only ones I have flown) there is a loud almost deafening buzzing sound during take off that I have never heard on any other planes.
DfwRevolution From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9897 times:
Quoting CrossChecked (Reply 13): To those who say that the Boeing 737-NG family of aircraft is better than the Airbus A320 family of aircraft, I would love to hear your reasoning.
Includes, but not limited to:
- Lower OEW than respective A32X competitor. Lower landing fees and fuel burn accordingly
- More advanced wing. Faster climb and higher cruise altitude.
- Greater resale value. Lower risk investment
- Low ground access. Less ground equippement required
- More advanced navigation and avionics. Still maintains advantage over 2003 Airbus avionics update, A320 not yet available with VSD, HUD, or GPS navigation
The 737NG is an excellent airplane, and meets or exceeds the A320 in nearly all comparisons.
Quoting CrossChecked (Reply 13): they tend to keep looking relatively new for some time, whereas Boeings tend to age (atleast in the cabins) more quickly.
Entirely the responsibility of the opperator and not the manufacture.
Quoting Scbriml (Reply 6): It was reported in this week's Flight International that the MOU was of the "loose, non-binding" variety, and was for 737-900X (if such a beast really exists).
Yeah it does. Can be in service in 18 months from the time an airline places an order, been available for about 2 years but has not reached the critical mass (about 40 aircraft) necessary for launch. It is very likely to be launched in 2005...
Wukka From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1013 posts, RR: 17 Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9715 times:
Quoting KL911 (Reply 15): Sorry, I was talking about passenger comfort. Quiet and more space.
You are? Wonderful. Please demonstrate some responsibility with your comments by showing us all some links / reports based on dB ratings inside the craft, as well as something substantial relating to seat pitch and airline operations.
Everything that I've read by you is nothing more than an inflammatory comment towards Boeing, or a happy circle-jerk over Airbus. Coming from the Netherlands with KLM being a national, would you be happy to see the 74x disappear? They flagship that Boeing, and are quite proud of it.
Stop throwing the gas on the fire. It's obvious that you get a thrill out of it, but it gets old... fast.
A true aviation enthusiast would encourage the competition. Somehow, you are stuck sucking on the teat of Airbus.
Let me pose this queston: Why do you not like Boeing aircraft? I'm looking forward to your answer.
KL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4974 posts, RR: 14 Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9666 times:
Quoting Wukka (Reply 21): Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):
Sorry, I was talking about passenger comfort. Quiet and more space.
You are? Wonderful. Please demonstrate some responsibility with your comments by showing us all some links / reports based on dB ratings inside the craft, as well as something substantial relating to seat pitch and airline operations.
Everything that I've read by you is nothing more than an inflammatory comment towards Boeing, or a happy circle-jerk over Airbus. Coming from the Netherlands with KLM being a national, would you be happy to see the 74x disappear? They flagship that Boeing, and are quite proud of it.
Stop throwing the gas on the fire. It's obvious that you get a thrill out of it, but it gets old... fast.
A true aviation enthusiast would encourage the competition. Somehow, you are stuck sucking on the teat of Airbus.
Let me pose this queston: Why do you not like Boeing aircraft? I'm looking forward to your answer.
Wow....relax..I like the 777,hate the 737 and love the airbus 320 and 340 because they are much more quiet and more spacious. Just my opinion so I don't have proof....
" The European consumer would crawl naked over broken glass to get low fares." Michael O'Leary
EI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9618 times:
Quoting Wukka (Reply 21): You are? Wonderful. Please demonstrate some responsibility with your comments by showing us all some links / reports based on dB ratings inside the craft, as well as something substantial relating to seat pitch and airline operations.
I dont have any links to demonstrate, but as a passenger I much prefer the A32X. It seems far quiter than any 737 I have ever flown on (Ive been on 732, 733, 734, 735, 737, 738 and 319, 320, 321). Also, the seats seem slightly wider in cattle class (but not much wider). But anyone who tries to claim the 737 is quieter is putting up a non-sense argument.
Seat pitch can be bigger on either plane, its down to how that airline specifies.
Wukka, if you have the noise specs please post them, I am interested to know.
Bennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 6351 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9606 times:
Well clearly seat pitch is down to the airline, subject to the size of the cabin.
As for dB ratings, these will vary according to thrust levels, insulation, engine condition among other factors. Also two people hearing the same noise level will find it more or less intrusive.
Presumably Wukka as a true aviation enthusiast would encourage Airbus.
AirbusDriver, he said cruise altitude not Mach number. I notice that you do not quote the OEW either. As for avionics, I doubt that the 732 was built with a glass cockpit. I think that he is refering to the standard fit.
NASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3079 posts, RR: 5 Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9469 times:
Maybe Airbus will pay Lion Air to fly their planes, it seems to be their trend.
25 AirbusDriver: Vortex generators also add drag! And still no FBW on the B737...
26 KL808: This thread has gone way off topic. The A vs B doesn't make sense at all. There is no SCIENTIFIC FACT that the B737 is better than the A320 or vice ve
27 Wukka: My apologies. Someone pissed in my Cheerios. However, your initial statement was implying nothing short of "fact" as to the spaciousness and quietnes
28 Davejondi: Boeing rules!!! The 787 is going to mop up the A350!!!
29 Wukka: Unfortunately, I don't. That's why I asked KL911 for some stats to back up the statement. I have also flown the same gambit of planes that you mentio
30 AirbusDriver: And you know that because??? All the Airbus I have flown have been better than the Boeing.
31 DfwRevolution: Different aircraft are build for different mission parameters. The A318/736 being different than the A321/739. Why is it difficult for you to accept
32 AirbusDriver: O.K. P.S: I still think the A320 is better than the B738, What up with the 1970 Cockpit???
33 Theredbaron: I love todays pissing contest on A.net..... If any of those 2 airplanes were so bad why are they competing? If one is so clearly better than the other
34 ZOTAN: How so? The window on the NG is actually 20% larger than the A320. Ah yes of course. FBW makes the plane. Why did I ever prefer the 737? Well the NG
35 Carpethead: I had to join in on today's AB battle. 737NG cruises higher. A320 has wider fuselage width. A person on a 737 in row 1 is going to have a different ex
36 HB-IWC: You could have all saved your guns, because as, Mandala499 said in reply 10, this order is highly unlikely to ever materialize. The airline we're talk
37 HB-IWC: What a good idea! Please read Mandala499's post as well as mine, on the unlikelihood that any of these plans will ever materialize!
38 Mandala499: HB-IWC, no need to go and read the original reply but reading this one hopefully would be enough! KL808, Thank you... Now for the others who are typin
39 777ER: That sounds like Lion Air is one screwed up airline.....as if we all didn't know already. As if the non-aviations buffs would know the difference bet
40 KL808: well said... But the argument is about which aircraft is better, therefore my statement that there's no scientific FACT that the B737 is better than
41 HB-IWC: Futher to all previous comments about Lion Air, I have taken the effort to dig up some of its press releases over the past two years: Lion will add MD
42 Mandala499: Let's see... 18 February 2005: "Lion orders 40 737NGs"... It was announced that Lion signed the deal to buy 40 737-900s. It was said to have been sign
43 Lehpron: Isn't it an "ER" now? Boeing is really milking the 737, why on Earth if they plan to replace it?
44 777ER: Don't think the B739X has been named the -900ER, but it most likly will be knowen as the -900ER
45 Intothinair: Thanks for all that information. Lion Air flying to Europe, don't think this will ever happen, amusing information though, as well as the "Factory fre
46 Sebolino: Well, A320 family: 3400 orders in 20 years 737 family: 5300 orders in 40 years The trend is in favour of the A320
47 777ER: How many B737NGs have been sold compared to A320?
48 777ER: Just done some quick research and 2460 B737NGs have been sold since the B737NG was launched so the B737NG looks more popular
49 Sebolino: Correct. It's probably time for Airbus to make an A320 replacement.
50 Voodoo: My own personal take is that there is so little in between the 32X and 737NG with any criteria that any decent airline could make pretty much the same
51 NA: "Interesting they had signed an MOU for 737-900 and then Airbus made a counter offer AFTER the deal was "done". I think they will stick with Boeing."
52 KBFIspotter: Oh well. I hope that Boeing gets the order, due to the fact that it will help my local economy since I live in the Seattle area, but if Airbus gets it
54 HB-IWC: Further to the information above, justplanes.com is now reporting that Lion Air has leased out two of its four-strong fleet of B734s to Pacific Airlin
55 Intothinair: Just read the same. Weird, they shrink their fleet, and then they are apparently close to ordering up to 60 aircraft???? Cheers, Konstantin G.
56 BlueSky1976: I'll demonstrate it. Flew on A320 PHL-ORD and on 737 WAW-KRK. Nothing beats A320s wider seats. No more 737 for me...
57 Mandala499: Not forgetting some of their MD80 is with Myanmar Air Intl... As much as I dislike this airline, I do wish they would change and become a sustainable
58 Mirrodie: OK, I just spent the better part of an hour deleting a bunch of nonsense in this thread. In this one thread. It took 45 minutes to sort through one th
59 Mandala499: OK, let's keep it on Lion Air... Mirrodie, Lion Air is a privately owned Indonesian airline that started in the 2000 "deregulation"... they're now the
60 Intothinair: Sorry, i kept on topic, other people were sort of drifting off. Yeah, some stuff which has been written here, is totally offtopic to the thread name
61 D950: Just who is holding the ticket on the MD90's?? Is it Boeing capitol?? If so they will be back @ Marana soon if payment is not forthcoming. The airline
62 Mandala499: D950, as much as I hate setting my foot on an MD80 (though I'd like to try a 717), at least Lion didn't follow the rest by going with 732s... though t
63 D950: Mandala, you are the Lion guru, I used to fly those MD90's out of SNA, great birds, and I fear they are doomed with this lousy excuse for an airline.
64 Mandala499: D950, Guru? Well they know my name... which is a bad thing... At the moment the MD90s are being thrown around the network... one's painted in Lion col
65 D950: That would be Boeing capital, who was approached first by Hello, who seems much more sound/stable. The "guru" was a compliment, meaning you usually kn
66 Mirrodie: Mandela499, that is great, you made my day with that synopsis. Such an informative post. I had no idea there was such drama behind this airline. I've
67 Intothinair: Sorry, my fault I'd love them to get the 737NG, just because then i get some variety here in PEN, since Air Asia already ordered A320's and MH is not
68 Mandala499: Mirrodie, "Mandela499, that is great, you made my day with that synopsis." OK... but it's mandAla499 ! ... I'm not the 499th member of the "certain So
69 Gorkonfl: Hi Mandala499, maybe you should mention that there is an airline by the name of Mandala in Indonesia. That could help people remember. My experience w
70 Mandala499: The bad news is... some investors decide to stay away from the market if Lion is still there (despite the fact that Lion doesn't charge rockbottom fla
71 DAYflyer: Sounds like the order is a fantasy to me.
72 Intothinair: Let's hope not, i'd be great if they'd have the money to buy some new planes. I wouldn't call it a fantasy, but i wouldn't call it for certain either
73 Zoom1018: I have flown on A321/320 and Boeing 737s... and I would still choose 737 rather than an A320!
74 HB-IWC: It seems like things are starting to move quickly in Indonesia's aviation industry. Yesterday, in the midst of this rumored Lion Air order, came the s
75 Intothinair: HB-IWC First, thanks for that thorough report. From what i've heard from all replies, it seems unlikely that Lion Air will order very soon, but who k
76 HB-IWC: The Indonesian domestic aviation scene is, largely by means of its own doing, stuck in a vicious circle of low -read: too low- fares. As I said before
77 Mandala499: After reading HB-IWC's last 2 replies it seems that I owe him a beer or two! Star Air's loss of operational reliability was a direct result of obtaini
78 Dan2002: Some 737 noise info (in EPNdB) Takeoff: 738-87db 739-86db 73G-85db 736-83db Sideline: 739-95db 73G-94db 736-92db 738-90db Approach: 739-96db 738-95db
79 Mandala499: Dan2002, Does Lion Air care? Hell would freeze over before the airline would make a decision based on the data you have up there... maybe even freeze
80 Intothinair: Well, it was on justplanes.com/atwonline.com Usually I trust what they're saying(That's why I opened this topic) However looking at what all of you h
81 Mandala499: Konstantin, If it goes through and they don't change their practices... expect there'll be very very few airlines here before 2010. If the deal goes t
82 HB-IWC: I honestly couldn't care less whether or not this deal comes through, even if I am firmly convinced that it will not happen. Lion is a disgrace on th
83 Intothinair: I've never been on Lion Air, so I can't say that they are good or bad, but from what aircrafts I'm seeing it's not exactly the youngest fleet they've
84 Ryanair!!!: I've never been on Lion Air, so I can't say that they are good or bad, but from what aircrafts I'm seeing it's not exactly the youngest fleet they've
85 Mandala499: Ryanair... "There were no magazines in the seat pockets, but something unusual caught my eye. It was an “invocation card” or otherwise known as
86 AKelley728: Looks like the title of the thread needs to be changed to Lion Air orders 60 737! http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...echnology/2002288877_boeing26
87 Calvin99: An interesting quote from the article: "In Jakarta, Indonesia, a spokesman for Lion Air told The Wall Street Journal that it plans to order 30 737-800
88 Mandala499: Looks like the title of the thread needs to be changed to Lion Air orders 60 737 Not yet... quote from the seattlepi... "Lion Air, a low-cost Indonesi
89 HB-IWC: All information surrounding this supposed major Boeing order has been either highly inaccurate or plain wrong, and anyone who has taken the effort to
90 Intothinair: I definintely do, thanks to your and Mandala499's thorough reports on the airline. However, as much as I believe what you are saying, it seems more a
91 BoeingBus: I bet the same was said for Southwest, Ryanair, EasyJet, and so on and on... Look, airlines start in the rough and sometime they end up being very su
92 HB-IWC: I'm pretty sure you haven't taken the time to read this complete topic, because if you had you would have refrained from making these kinds of remark
93 BoeingBus: I did read the complete topic... but again, seasons change, people change and so do compnies. You can disagree with a decision but you are not a deci
94 Mandala499: Personal word pickfights aside... Let's see, this airline has: 1. Not paid maintenance bills recently 2. Been forced to pay hotels in cash because it
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