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Why No Flights Between Hamburg And Berlin?  
User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4365 times:

Would any of the our Berman folks care to elaborate an explanation for such thing?

Last I've checked Berlin and Hamburg are the top German most populous cities. Although that doesn't mean traffic, Frankfurt for instance, that ought be weird!!!

Is the any high speed train between the two cities that would justify the lack of commercial flights???

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4342 times:

I think you answered your own question....

Quoting Dellatorre (Thread starter):
Is the any high speed train between the two cities that would justify the lack of commercial flights???

From the Zoo station, it's less than two hours...1 hour 45 minutes.

But it's not cheap....last time I did it, 80 Euros. And that was 2nd Class, more for 1st Class.
Automobiles probably account for a lot of the competition too, A friend of mine, she does it in just over an hour and a half....(gotta love that Autobahn! 210 k/ph! gets you anywhere FAST!)



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User currently offlineTriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4695 posts, RR: 42
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4247 times:

The flights from HAM to TXL were opened in the early 90s after reunification, when the rail- and road infrastructure between the two cities was still derelict after decades of socialist neglect. Travel times by train on the totally run-down railway network was several hours, because the maximum speed allowed on many segments was just 80 kph. Same for the Autobahn network - due to the construction work there were construction sites everywhere along the road, so there were massive traffic jams and also reduced speed limits.

After most of the infrastructure barriers had been removed, LH experienced a massive plunge of passenger numbers - first the 737 equipment was replaced by turboprops, and then the flights were discontinued altogether. Although taking the train is not cheap on this relation, it is still a better deal compared to what LH would gouge from their passengers on such a domestic monopoly route. Therefore going by car or rail is actually the best alternative both in terms of travel time and -budget.



Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4234 times:

Another explaination:

- neither Hamburg nor Berlina re LH hubs --> hence, no need to 'feed' the respective cities

- point-to-point operations economic performance might be unfavorable for that route

- and, as said, trains are probably faster, taking the entire time (check-in, boarding etc)

- (in terms of environmental aspects, I am really happy that this route is not operated by air- and I know that I will be fried now again, mentioning environmental aspects  Wink )


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4216 times:

It's really a combination of things, but in short, Stirling's answer hits the dot.

The two cities are relatively close to each other, so a plane simply cannot get any time-advantage over the train; so with the improvements of the autobahn and, especially, the improvements for the train, there was no real need for flights anymore.

But, Stirling, €80??? Who made you pay that much??? Or was that the return fare?

Because the standard, fully flexible fare for Hamburg-Berlin (either way) is €55 in second class (just checked it on www.bahn.de ), the surcharge for first is 50%, so that comes in at €85 (yes, they do round up rather generously after adding the 50%).

And you can get non-flex return ticket reduced by either 25 or 50%, so if you fix the time and date of your train for both ways and have a Saturday night stay in there as well, you could go back and forth for €55.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineTriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4695 posts, RR: 42
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4215 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 3):
- (in terms of environmental aspects, I am really happy that this route is not operated by air- and I know that I will be fried now again, mentioning environmental aspects )

"You pinko, tree-hugging, commie bastard! How can you dare to come up with your eco-fascist agenda on this superduper planef..cker website!?!"  

Hope, you're now satisfied.      

Seriously and in order to get back on topic, it just makes both ecological and economical sense to cease operation on such short relations. Even LH has acknowledged this, deciding to withdraw from routes like TXL-HAM or shifting their focus to high-speed train traffic in other instances (e.g. CGN-FRA, STR-FRA).

[Edited 2005-05-18 08:43:25]


Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4196 times:

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 5):
"You pinko, tree-hugging, commie bastard! How can you dare to come up with your eco-fascist agenda on this superduper planef..cker website!?!"

Hope, you're now satisfied.

You fulfilled the job perfectly in accordance with my expectations.. Well done  bigthumbsup   Wink

Cheers, MrNiji


User currently offlineEDDM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4092 times:

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 2):
compared to what LH would gouge from their passengers on such a domestic monopoly route.

Fortunately, the days of a domestic monopoly for LH are over!

Still, the rest of your post and the other posts here also hold true for DI.

[Edited 2005-05-18 10:54:26]

User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4000 times:

Well, I would guess that maybe some of germans LLC such as Hapag Lloyd Express, Air Berlin, or even DBA would be at least interested in having a couple of flights. Anyways, I apprecite the clarification of this matter. I knew I could count on the Deutsche! Viele danke!!!!

User currently offlineEDDM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 8):
Well, I would guess that maybe some of germans LLC such as Hapag Lloyd Express, Air Berlin, or even DBA would be at least interested in having a couple of flights.

They wouldn't if those flights were losing money - as they probably would.

And by the way, DBA is no LCC. They got their legacy carrier act pretty much together.

[Edited 2005-05-18 14:07:24]

User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3846 times:

Quoting EDDM (Reply 9):
And by the way, DBA is no LCC. They got their legacy carrier act pretty much together.

Nor is AB one.

As a person living near Berlin I wouldn't even think of flying from Berlin to Hamburg. I would need to spend more time in the airports than the whole duration of the train ride. What would I gain from flying between TXL or SXF and HAM except for the joy at flight?

BTW I would use the car either. At least as long as the A 24 is not extended to 6 lanes.

pelican


User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3817 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 10):
As a person living near Berlin I wouldn't even think of flying from Berlin to Hamburg. I would need to spend more time in the airports than the whole duration of the train ride. What would I gain from flying between TXL or SXF and HAM except for the joy at flight?

I fully agree! Timewise, it does not make any sense to fly this short hop!

Quoting Pelican (Reply 10):
BTW I would use the car either. At least as long as the A 24 is not extended to 6 lanes.

You mean wouldn't use a car, as long as the Autobahn is not extended to six lanes?  Confused


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8017 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3716 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 4):
But, Stirling, €80??? Who made you pay that much??? Or was that the return fare?

Hopefully, that €80,00 cost is the round trip fare!  Smile Otherwise, it'll be cheaper to drive between the two cities if you own a VW Golf with the PD130 engine or a VW Polo with a petrol engine.


User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3653 times:

I found the used ticket stub...
84 Euros.
Return.
Oddly enough, almost One year ago to the day.
Leaving Berlin after the Airshow..



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