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BA: 20 Years In GRU - What's Next?  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3963 times:

Today marks the 20th year of BA's operations in GRU.

BA started flights to Brazil in 1985 operating to CPQ/VCP with the Tristar 500 twice weekly. In the same year BA relocated from CPQ/VCP to GRU and has served the destination uninterruptedly. [Brazil was also one of the few destinations to receive scheduled flights of BA's Concorde which operated in GIG].

Currently BA operates LHR-GRU daily with the B747 (299 pax). GRU is one of BA's most profitable interncontinental destinations, performing especially well in Biz/First.

What are the future plans for BA in Brazil? Could BA enhance service, for example, serving GIG nonstop as a reaction to VS's future plans to operate in GIG from 2006? Or, could BA terminate services to GRU the same way it did in other South American destinations?

BA's operations in GRU seem very solid and in my opinion are in no danger. In addition, the fact that there are strong indications that TAM will join OW late in 2005 means that BA will have a crucial partner in the Brazilian market, able to distribute pax to domestic destinations, EZE, SCL, VVI and ASU.

Rgs,

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32737 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
[Brazil was also one of the few destinations to receive scheduled flights of BA's Concorde which operated in GIG].

Small correction, but that was Air France, not British Airways. Routing was LHR-DKR-GIG.



a.
User currently offlineRichard28 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 1619 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

BA's seems to rely on IB for south america, routing pax via MAD, will be interesting to see if they develop things further at the expense of this OneWorld partner.

Hardiwv - are you sure GRU is one of BA's most profitable routes? - I have to say I find this a little suprising.


I doubt VS will enter this market in 2006. Although Brazil is planned, I think that DXB, a daily BOM, a second HKG service (to release more seats to SYD) and a return to YYZ are further up the list.


User currently onlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7411 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3906 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
Small correction, but that was Air France, not British Airways. Routing was LHR-DKR-GIG.

Small correction : It was Air France Concorde, flight AF085 routing CDG-DKR-GIG . Operated from January 21, 1976 to April 1st 1982.


User currently offlineBA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8536 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3881 times:
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TheTAM link would be interesting. It would be a real coup for OneWorld if they did join, I myself feel they are more likely to join Skyteam.

Only time will tell....................



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11437 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3813 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
What are the future plans for BA in Brazil? Could BA enhance service, for example, serving GIG nonstop as a reaction to VS's future plans to operate in GIG from 2006? Or, could BA terminate services to GRU the same way it did in other South American destinations?

Hardi, i think that GIG became a very good route since Varig now operates only GRU-LHR (the flight no more goes to GIG) increasing the market for a non stop flight (it could start 3 times a week).
Rio is an important market for English corporations as Intelig (National Grid), British Gas, Amerada Hess (Oil), Enterprise Oil, Glaxo Wellcome, Shell, Allied Domecq, BAE Systems, Souza Cruz (British American tobacco). Souza Cruz, Intelig and British Gas (which controls Sao Paulo gas distribution company) , Glaxo, Allied Domecq and Shell are 6 from the 10 biggest British companies in Brazil.
At least 35% of Buz pax to English come from Rio de Janeiro and the problem up to now is the lack of connections (to receive traffic from Vitoria and Belo Horizonte for example). It has been fixed by the relocation of domestic flights from SDU to GIG.
Yesterday i can say that flights from GIG from 5pm to 8pm were all full (several people in Waiting lists) and as CGH slots are not easy, GIG can receive more flights soonest. Hope to see BA or VS flying non stop GIG-London soon.

Regards,
Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offline767-300ER From United States of America, joined May 1999, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3756 times:

yes GRU is one of BAs most profitable routes, anyone have numbers??

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3729 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
Small correction, but that was Air France, not British Airways

BA also operated the Concorde to GIG. BA and AF were the operators of Concorde to GIG.


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Quoting Richard28 (Reply 2):
are you sure GRU is one of BA's most profitable routes?

Yes, I'm sure. GRU is on the top 10 list of BA's most profitable intercontinental flights.

Rgs,


User currently offlineFLYSSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7411 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3673 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 7):
BA also operated the Concorde to GIG. BA and AF were the operators of Concorde to GIG.

Maybe BA operated some Concorde charters to GIG but NEVER regular flights.


User currently offlineRichard28 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 1619 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3612 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 7):

Yes, I'm sure. GRU is on the top 10 list of BA's most profitable intercontinental flights.

Thanks, I'll take your word for it!

kind regards,

Rich.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3572 times:

Quoting FLYSSC (Reply 8):
Maybe BA operated some Concorde charters

Indeed, AF operated regular Concorde flights to GIG, while BA operated charter Concorde flights to GIG.

In fact, GIG was one of the the firt Concorde destinations of AF.

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 9):
Thanks, I'll take your word for it!

My statement is a "quote" in the Brazilian press of BA's Director in Brazil. In fact, it was BA's GRU performance that led BA to replace the B777 for the B747 on the route. [I also know for sure that GRU is SA's most profitable intercontinental route and AA's most profitable destination from JFK - both have destinations that produce more revenue, but GRU is the most profitable].

Rgs,


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32737 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3515 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 7):
BA also operated the Concorde to GIG. BA and AF were the operators of Concorde to GIG.

BA never operated scheduled Concorde service to GIG. Only Air France did. British Airways operated the ocassional charters to GIG on Concordes, but so what? BA operated Concorde charters to any city that people would charter the aircraft to.



a.
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3500 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
BA operated Concorde charters to any city that people would charter the aircraft to.

Read my reply 10, in which I confirm that BA operated charter Concorde to GIG, while AF operated scheduled Concorde flights.

"So what"? It demonstrates that there is high-yield demand for the destination. I'm sure a ticket in a chartered Concorder is more expensive than a ticket on BA's First Class scheduled flight to GIG.

Rgs,


User currently offlineGeoffm From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 2111 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3476 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):
Read my reply 10, in which I confirm that BA operated charter Concorde to GIG, while AF operated scheduled Concorde flights

Which contradicts with your original statement:

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
razil was also one of the few destinations to receive scheduled flights of BA's Concorde which operated in GIG

So I hardly think it's fair to be rude to MAH4546...

Anyway, more competition on the route would be good as fares aren't cheap.

Geoff M.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3463 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
Currently BA operates LHR-GRU daily with the B747 (299 pax). GRU is one of BA's most profitable interncontinental destinations, performing especially well in Biz/First.

How do you know it's profitable?



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8961 posts, RR: 40
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3408 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14):
How do you know it's profitable?

http://www.panrotas.com.br/canais/re...&nome_model=ultima.asp&url_origem=

That's an old article (in portuguese only, unfortunatly) from October/04 about BA's changing LHR-GRU service from the 772, to the 744. They made an increase of 46% in coach and biz seats. They also say that LHR-GRU was on the top 20 (not 10, at least according to this article) most profitable routes operated by BA.

Cheers,
PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3395 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14):
How do you know it's profitable?

The article PPVRA posted I haven't read before. The information that GRU is one of BA's most profitable interncontinental destinations was mentioned in another news article in English, and was a statement of BA's Director in Brazil. The article also mentioned that this was the underlying reason for the replacement of the B777 for the B747 on the route, which would therefore expand seats on Biz/First.

Anyway, PPVRA posted an article with similar information in Portuguese.

Quoting Geoffm (Reply 13):
So I hardly think it's fair to be rude to MAH4546...

If my post was roude I apologise. I very much respect MAH4546, which for a long time is included in my respected user list. I only mentioned that my reply 10 makes a correction in my original post.

Rgs,


User currently onlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7411 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3335 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 10):
In fact, GIG was one of the the first Concorde destinations of AF.

It was THE first route for AF Concorde.
Services started for both AF & BA on January 21, 1976.
CDG-DKR-GIG for AF, and LHR-BAH for BA.

Other regular Concorde routes for AF were :

CDG-(SMA)-CCS
CDG-IAD
CDG-JFK

MEX was also served in the early 80's as an extension of the CDG-IAD flight.

Today, AF serves GIG DAILY nonstop with a B744, and GRU is Daily nonstop with a B772ER.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3278 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 17):
GIG was THE first route for AF Concorde.

FlySSC: tks for the details.

Very interesting, and AF continues to make big money in GIG. Different from all other foreign airlines, GIG is AF Headquarters in Brazil (all other airlines have their HQ in GRU); AF (and TP) are the only foreign airlines making more profits in GIG rather than in GRU.

Rgs,


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 17):
GIG was THE first route for AF Concorde.

FlySSC: tks for the details.

Very interesting, and AF continues to make big money in GIG. Different from all other foreign airlines, GIG is AF Headquarters in Brazil (all other airlines have their HQ in GRU); AF (and TP) are the only foreign airlines making more profits in GIG rather than in GRU.

Rgs,


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2084 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3234 times:

I think BA would be hindered in any changes to the LHR-GRU-GIG/LHR-GRU-EZE service by a shortage of longhaul equipment. It has added permanent capacity to HKG this summer, and will expand its capacity to India this Winter and next Summer. If BA were to change things though, maintaining the daily LHR-GRU would go without saying, but maybe making it a terminator, with say a new four or five times weekly LHR-GIG-EZE service. But aircraft wise can't see BA being able to do this. Converting additional shorthaul 767s to longhaul this Winter is only going to free up 777s for expansion to India.


Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3215 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 20):
If BA were to change things though, maintaining the daily LHR-GRU would go without saying

Agree with you. There is not chance for BA to drop operations in GRU.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 20):
with say a new four or five times weekly LHR-GIG-EZE service

Could be a possibility. However, as you mentioned, there is a shortage of aircraft, and I'm sure they could find markets which are more interesting/profitable for BA in the Far East for aircraft deployment is compared to a 4 x week LHR-GIG-EZE - would BA have 5th freedom rights GIG-EZE? And here BA would also meddle on IB's market...

If TAM indeed joins OW this year, as are all the indications, BA could make GRU as a terminator and use JJ for onward pax connection to GIG, EZE, SCL and ASU + domestic flights in Brazil. I would also see some chance of TAM to operate its own flight to LHR, codeshare with BA (but here the problem is slots in LHR. What is the current waiting time and/or could BA help JJ in this respect?).

Rgs,


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2499 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3206 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 20):
Converting additional shorthaul 767s to longhaul this Winter is only going to free up 777s for expansion to India.

Well does BA not lease some new aircraft like all airlines do??!!! Is it a big problem? That way it can add capacity wherever it wants to. The additional B767 will be too small for some routes. Which routes are going to be downgraded to B767?

BA could lease 2 or 3 772s or 744s to operate flights to India and China and may be adds capacity to Brazil and Argentina...



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11437 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3141 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 22):
BA could lease 2 or 3 772s or 744s to operate flights to India and China and may be adds capacity to Brazil and Argentina...

Could be 744 because there are no available 772s in the market. I think that they can obtain a 60% load factor immediately in GIG/EZE operating 4 times a week with a 744. And in 18 months they can improve this flight to 5 or 6 times and up to 2 years for a Daily Flight. UK business in Rio are strong, growing fast and can be increased with the non stop flights.
Rio's GIG received more than 27.000 charter pax during jan-mar/05 as per Infraero info(more than 400% increase over the last year) and in fact 1 or 2 flights per week are from UK. There are more opportunities from Portugal, Spain, Italy, Argentina, Netherlands and Germany (GIG will receive 2 additional weekly flights from FRA after august).

Regards,
Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineSenorcarnival From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3132 times:

If we take a brief walk down memory lane, up until the early-mid 90's, most international flights to GIG and GRU went: int'l destination-GIG-GRU. After that, it became, int'l destination-GRU-GIG. Then finally, many airlines simply began flying n-s to GIG or GRU. Why this shift?

25 Hardiwv : Two interesting facts: 1. GRU airport was completed in 1985 and drained all flights from GIG [before 1985 airlines used to fly to CPQ/VCP instead - w
26 Senorcarnival : True. But in terms of accessability, GRU is a lot closer to the city than GIG, isn't it?
27 LipeGIG : Wrong. GIG is closer than any other brazilian international airport to its city downtwon. GIG is inside Rio de Janeiro city and GRU in fact is in Gua
28 Commavia : Is TAM seriously considering joining oneworld? I haven't heard this anywhere, but hope it actually happens!
29 Senorcarnival : Well, I'll be damned. I went to INFRAERO's site and sure enough, GIG is 20km (12mi) from downtown and GRU is 25km (15mi)...
30 Hardiwv : I think there was some confusion with regard to the wording "city" and proximity of "downtown" (city-centre). GIG is located in Ilha do Governador, w
31 Post contains images LH423 : BA: 20 Years In GRU - What's Next? My guess: Another 20 years! LH423
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