Hmmmm... From Canada, joined May 1999, 2095 posts, RR: 5 Posted (13 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3670 times:
AP reports that there has been a plane crash in the Philippines today. Reports have it that the entire complement of 120 aboard the Air Philippines flight are feared dead. No info on plane type or cause.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
VirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (13 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3203 times:
This is the nation's worst plane crash since the DC-9 crash that killed all 104 people when it crashed into a mountain a few years back. I don't know the name of the airline but I think it was a charter and probably belonged to the Philippines.
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12166 posts, RR: 35 Reply 5, posted (13 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3147 times:
Just watching the GMTV morning news here in the UK and it is confirmed that all 131 on board (tragically including 6 babies) were killed; footage showed that there were very few pieces of identifiable wreckage - I could only see the engine.
Looking at the JP, Air Philippines has an extremely old 737 fleet; of its 9 737-200s, seven are ex United, ALL of which are over 30 years old (LN 42 was built in 1967). The other two are both 78/9 build. Rudder failure is indeed a possibility as the aircraft was circling, but do also bear in mind that corrosion and fatigue could be a factor. Weather was not mentioned as a factor and seemed fine in the footage shown.
Spacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2810 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (13 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3126 times:
What about #6, delivered 9/9/67? (RPC2021).
The only ones less than 30 years old are the ex Southwest planes, which are only in their early 20's. CNN says that the plane has been in service for 22 years, which means that it WAS an ex Southwest plane (former N50SW-N53SW).
Right now we know that it was an Air Philippenes 737-200, flight 541 from Manilla to Davo
N754PR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (13 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3105 times:
As a spotter that has visited the Philippines on many different trips I feel very sorry to hear this news. I have been on the Ramp at Manila and taken most of their fleet. Nice photos of the 737-200's and YS-11's
Panman From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Aug 1999, 790 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (13 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3099 times:
I just love you guys. Why not quote the whole thing before you start blaming the rudder. The plane was CIRCLING to LAND. If it was an A320 and not a 737 would you guys be so quick to jump to a conclusion about the rudder?
MEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4210 posts, RR: 36 Reply 10, posted (13 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3082 times:
Panman is right.... at least wait for the accident investigations. Only few accidents are caused by too old aircraft or technical/design problems... Till now, this seems more a typical approach accident. Smaller third world country-airports don't have good ILS-facilities, many accidents do happen because the airliner is off course and crashes into ground or high terrain. But let's wait for more news first.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
Panman From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Aug 1999, 790 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (13 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3060 times:
Just saw this on PPRUNE, written by The Guvnor:
"The aircraft that went down was a 1978 B737-200 Advanced, registration RP-C3010; s/n 21447 and line number 508. The aircraft was powered by the Pratt & Whitney JT8D-9A engines.
It was originally operated by US-based Southwest Airlines when it was registered as N50SW, It was purchased in November 1998 by AAR Aircraft & Engine Group and stored. Air Philippines leased it from March 1999 to December 2001."
TEDSKI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (13 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3059 times:
Heard on the news last night that a passenger on the plane called a relative and told them that there was an explosion on the plane before the plane crashed. Wonder if faulty wiring on the plane was the cause (TWA 800)?
Jet Setter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (13 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3012 times:
What a load of crap - people are drawing conclusions while the wreckage is still smouldering. Have you been to the crash site? Are you an accident investigator? What are you basing these assumptions on?
Stop drawing unfounded conclusions based on non-existent evidence. It's complete rubbish to say because a 747's fuel tank exploded, or there was possibly a rudder problem involved in 2 737 accidents 9 and 6 years ago, then they are likely to be the cause here.
Kaitak, I expected more from you - suspecting the rudder because the plane was circling - How many 737s circle every day? BTW - In the Colorado Springs/Pittsburgh accidents the aircraft weren't turning when the upsets occured.
Lets wait for some proper evidence and allow the experts to draw their conclusions.
At this time you should be thinking about people who have just lost their friends and families - not guessing what happened
TEDSKI, you've nothing to worry about flying on a 737!
GLA MD11 From France, joined Mar 2000, 277 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (13 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2994 times:
I agree with you guys, stop criticizing the 737.
All that can be said for the moment is that it was a very old aircraft, operated with an airline that is not exactly 1st class for safety and maintenance, trying to land on a underequiped airport.
All the rest is only speculation.
Hmmmm... From Canada, joined May 1999, 2095 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (13 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2985 times:
I think what Kaitak was getting at when he mentioned that the plane was circling, is that when the 737 is configured for approach with flaps at 1, with weights greater than 110,000 lbs, and flying slow below 190 knts, below what they call the crossover speed, its ailerons do not produce enough lateral force to counteract the sideslip-induced roll produced as a result of an uncommanded full rudder deflection, should it occur. This is why some airlines, such as USAir, have instructed their pilots to come in faster than normal, to minimize the time spent in this vulnerable part of the flight envelope.
We can begin to speculate as to the cause as soon as we know the nature of the crash. If we find out that it hit a mountain, flying too low, then we can forget about the rudder. If, however, it went nose first from 6,000 feet, for no apparent reason in clear weather, then we know that the serial killer has struck again.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
American 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3512 posts, RR: 13 Reply 22, posted (13 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2985 times:
I agree with you guys.
At this time we cannot say that the disaster of flight 541 bound from Manila was due to a faulty rudder system. How many 737 disasters involved rudders within the last 35 years? Two. United 585 in Colorado (1991) and US Air 427 in Pittsburg (1994). How many 737's fly everyday? Hundreds. At any time, over 800 737's are in the air. A 737 incident is not always due to the rudder.
Airline officials had said that there was nothing abnormal with the aircraft before departure.The aircraft's records in the maintenance log book show that it had no particular problem. This particular Boeing 737 was a 200 built 22 years ago. The 737-200 was built between 1966 and 1988, more than 1100 of those were made.
It is said that the cause of the crash is related to the weather; I really think so. There were low cloud layers and the Davo airport was not ILS equipped! When attempting an instrument approach, if the visibility is less than minimums published on the approach charts then the pilot must execute a go around, redo the approach or go to an other airport. The Cockpit Voice Recorder has been retreived from the crash site but the Flight Data Recorder is not recovered yet. I'm convinced that the cause of the crash is due to the weather which was below minimum and the lack of proper equipment for instrument approaches. Wait till you see what the Flight Data Recorder shows before you blame it on the rudder!
Samurai 777 From Canada, joined Jan 2000, 2457 posts, RR: 5 Reply 24, posted (13 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2970 times:
This is a terrible incident, especially when some so young die so soon. My condolences.
Though it's too soon to be drawing conclusions as to what the cause was, I'm not sure how many people are going to be wary of setting foot in a 737-200 or another old a/c after they hear the tragic news of the PAL crash, especially in a developing nation. Remember what happened to the DC-10 in the '70s? Many people tried rebooking flights or alternative modes of transportation just to avoid the DC-10, especially after the AA crash in Chicago. The DC-10 is actually a safe plane to fly in. The 737-200 actually has a better safety record than most Boeing aircraft!
Personally, I wouldn't worry about flying in a 737-200 or any other old plane flown by Canadian or any other North American carrier. These are often maintained very well, despite their age. It's more likely to do with the airline's maintenance record and airport facilities and how well their pilots handle their planes, rather than some defect in the plane's mechanism.
Unfortunately, many airlines and airports in developing nations do not have safety record as good as those in richer countries. Often, it is due to lack of suitable facilities because they're too expensive. Pilots may be undertrained compared to their counterparts in developed countries. Or the airline has a poor safety record because of either serious corruption, (I've seen cases like that, as some third-world carriers may try to save face or avoid censure by their governments or the FAA.) or they simply cannot afford the maintenance costs.
25 SFO: The ill fated carrier is Air Philippines not PAL (Philippine Airlines.) Air Philippines was one of several upstart Philippine carriers that started op
26 Teahan: Stop fighting and pray for the victims and families!
27 Samurai 777: Thanks for correcting me on this one. I'd hate to get burned for confusing one airline with another. You'd be amazed at how many people confuse Wester
28 Hmmmm...: It's funny. Right now we don't know any of the details on this crash other than it was a 737. Yet, on one hand, some posters tell us not to speculate
29 Jet Setter: Hope I'm not drawing any unfounded conlusions, but this information is from today's paper; The airport had been closed a short while before the 737 ma
30 Samurai 777: The Air Philippines(not to be confused with PAL!) 737-200 was said to have undergone a routine maintenance check just prior to taking off from Manila.