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Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?  
User currently offlineAirIndiaOne From India, joined Mar 2005, 146 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8769 times:

This article talks about how a trainee ATC saved hundreds of lives when he spotted an Air India jumbo at short finals with its "gear down"
Anybody knew about this piece of news?
Also note that the article mentions the flight no. as 409 and again as 145H later!

Here's the story


"You don't have to be crazy to be in aviation, but it helps", JRD Tata
45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTymnBalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 946 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8754 times:

The article says it was flight AI145 with 409 pax onboard.

C.

[Edited 2005-05-19 09:26:08]


Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlinePA006 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8738 times:

it is a flight with 409 passengers.

User currently offlineGamps From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 469 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8736 times:

I remember this from 2004. It was in some Indian newspapers as well. And if I remember correctly, Captain said he was "tired" - which some think was nothing but a ploy to extract more monies from AI management. I think final word was Air India pilots wanted to show the world that they are "overworked". This was just before AI started LAX operations and pilots were making some noise about extra pay for the hours they put or something. Not sure what happenned to the Captain, though I remember reading he was grounded.

User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8652 times:

It 3was captain Chatterjee on BOM-CDG-EWR, I remember.. no excuse for this action - it was shocking!

User currently offlineVictorTango From India, joined Jan 2005, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8616 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 4):
It 3was captain Chatterjee on BOM-CDG-EWR, I remember.. no excuse for this action - it was shocking!

I remember this incident clearly. Heard that the captain would face disciplinary action. Any idea what happened?

Olly


User currently offlineA340roy From Germany, joined May 2004, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8421 times:

remember this incident clearly. Heard that the captain would face disciplinary action. Any idea what happened

well, he is STILL commanding AI's 747-400's!!!!

roy!



AR-FRA
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 8352 times:

Quoting Gamps (Reply 3):
And if I remember correctly, Captain said he was "tired" -

How could there be no Warnings for a Gear up Situation,Its difficult to believe.
Even the Transcript recordings dont tell much.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4749 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8007 times:

The GPWS has 6 modes and one of them is for a warning to chime when the plane gets too close to terrain without the gears... and the "whoop whoop" sounds are hard to miss.


Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3767 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 7979 times:

Anyone know what the reg. was?

Was it a AI 744?

Rob!


User currently offlineAirIndiaOne From India, joined Mar 2005, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7761 times:

Quoting PA006 (Reply 2):
it is a flight with 409 passengers.

oops...mistake noted, overlooked the article.



"You don't have to be crazy to be in aviation, but it helps", JRD Tata
User currently offlineThunderbird1 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7223 times:

This is unbelievable.

Perhaps he was fully informed of what he was doing, and wasn't really intending to land. He may have wanted to do a low speed pass over the runway  Wink


User currently offlineVS74741R From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 272 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7183 times:

Quoting AirIndiaOne (Thread starter):
This article talks about how a trainee ATC saved hundreds of lives when he spotted an Air India jumbo at short finals with its "gear down"

Don't most aircraft have their "gear down" on short finals  wink 



Obviously a Virgin Atlantic fan!!!
User currently offlineVzlet From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7148 times:

You can hear it happen here:
http://www.natca.org/assets/multimedia/01-Track-01.mp3



"That's so stupid! If they're so secret, why are they out where everyone can see them?" - my kid
User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7047 times:

Reminds me of a CO 727 that nearly belly landed at ORD - the rear of the fuselage scraped the runway as the crew executed the go around. An AA pilot on the ground noticed and called in CO's lack of gear and the tower controller told the aircraft to go around. The CO crew, in post-incident interviews, stated that they had realised the gear issue themselves and had executed the go-around even before the controller's call.


The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineMKEdude From South Korea, joined May 2005, 1011 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6938 times:

Quoting Gamps (Reply 3):
Captain said he was "tired" - which some think was nothing but a ploy to extract more monies from AI management. I think final word was Air India pilots wanted to show the world that they are "overworked".

Inexcusable no matter what the reason. If this was an oversight than the pilot should be fired for incompetence. If this was on purpose than he should be jailed for endangering hundreds of passengers.



"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6138 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6819 times:
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It happened also to a CO DC-9 in IAH, where the crew, forgetting to connect some hydraulics or something (I don't know the works of a DC-9 maybe someone could help), landed without flaps, slats, or gear, and didn't realized it until they actually touched the ground. How it could happen is beyond me. The CVR recorded a pretty interesting conversation about tennis, though


MGGS
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6757 times:

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 8):
The GPWS has 6 modes and one of them is for a warning to chime when the plane gets too close to terrain without the gears... and the "whoop whoop" sounds are hard to miss.

Not just this, you´ll also have the oldfashioned landing configuration warning. Pull the throttles back to idle without having the gear out, you´ll get a loud annoying horn.

Jan


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6702 times:

Some more info at this link on the the website that Vzlet originally posted.

It seems the a/c was at 600 feet, which perhaps explains why the GPWS annunciator wasn't whooping ?

By the way does 600 ft at "half-mile" away sound correct ? 12 degree slope ?



The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6619 times:

Quoting WestWing (Reply 18):
By the way does 600 ft at "half-mile" away sound correct ? 12 degree slope ?

Is the altitude AGL (Above Ground Level) or MSL (Mean Sea Level)? 600' AGL at 1/2 mile is very high, but if the airport is 300' above sea level, than the 600' MSL is 300' AGL, so that is right. At 1/2 mile you are about 20 seconds from touch down. The normal glide slope is about 3 degrees or 15' per second rate of decent (landing gear are normally stressed at 25' per second sink rate at the max landing weight). So 15' X 20 seconds is 300' AGL, that is the altitude he should have been at for 1/2 mile from touchdown.

A 12 degree slope? No, I wouldn't want that. That is a sink rate of 60' per second. At 300' at 1/2 mile (where you should be), you would hit the ground in 5 seconds, and about 4,000' short of the runway threshold. That would hurt a lot. Not to mention a very broken up airplane. In other words, you have crashed.


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6573 times:

KC135TopBoom:

Thanks for the explanation.

I looked up the EWR runway threshold elevations. They are ~ 10 feet.

If the GPWS begins complaining only at 500 ft AGL (without gear down and locked) this could explain why the crew had not realised yet. So 600 AGL could be correct. But 600 AGL seems inconsistent with the half-mile away (and a 3 degree glideslope), so they may have been further away than that.

Isn't there a separate gear warning horn which should also have sounded because position of flaps and throttle ? Presumably the crew had muted this. [EDIT: Sorry, just noticed that MD11Engineer already mentioned this]

[Edited 2005-05-21 00:27:26]


The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineThunderbird1 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6549 times:

To me, one of the most amazing parts about this story is the curt and matter of fact way in which the pilot acknowledged the warning that saved his hide: "Air India 145". No thank you or acknowledgement or anything. This could have been a major disaster--the flight was full.

User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6138 posts, RR: 30
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6507 times:
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Can someone explain to me how does the GPWS works when the plane is going above rapidly rising terrain, like the slope of a mountain? I'm thinking about the Mount Erebus crash, or the AA in Cali.
Thanks.



MGGS
User currently offlineAvionicMech From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 315 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6342 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 22):
Can someone explain to me how does the GPWS works when the plane is going above rapidly rising terrain, like the slope of a mountain? I'm thinking about the Mount Erebus crash, or the AA in Cali.
Thanks.

The standard GPWS would not give you a very good warning if the ground infront of you is rapidly rising or worse still if it a cliff face you would get no warning because all the system really does is look at your configuration of flaps and gear and your rad alt closure rate basically. This is the reason for the recent mandatory installation of the Enhanced GPWS, as this has a terrain database in its memory and knows your position, usually from a GPS input, so can tell you a lot earlier if you are getting too close to that big mountain ahead.

Back to the Air India 747,

There are 6 basic modes for the basic GPWS, the one that would have been shouting at the crew would have been mode 4a I think. But for the warnings to go off you have to be below 500 Ft I think the figure is, so if they were in fact at 600ft as mentioned above they would not have had any warnings from the GWPS system.


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4749 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6234 times:

Can someone explain to me how does the GPWS works when the plane is going above rapidly rising terrain,...

The GPWS utilises this equipment known as the "Radio Altimeter" that sends out pulses of signals and uses the time it takes to return to determine the height of the aircraft. This is then incorporated into the various modes of the GPWS.

The 6 modes that I mentioned all have different parameters to trigger the warning and the warning of terrain with gears up is mode 4A or 4B (cannot remember exactly). And that calls for a warning chime at 500ft.

Hope this explains...



Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
25 Post contains images HAWK21M : Was Thinking of the same regds MEL
26 Post contains images VictorTango : C'mon how could you forget! The poor fellow said he was 'tired' . Or maybe he was too sleepy
27 HAWK21M : Still no Explanation on Why no Warning. regds MEL
28 AvionicMech : The reason there may have been no warning was possibly that the aircraft was not low enough for the GPWS system to kick out a shout at the crew of 'to
29 Stealthpilot : can anyone confirm that the captain is still in command? that is.... i cant think of the right words for it....disgracefull, shocking, dangerous!! my
30 B747-437B : AFAIK, he was grounded and is now a simulator training pilot.
31 HAWK21M : What about L/G Indications & Horns [not GPWS warnings]. regds MEL
32 Thunderbird1 : AFAIK, he was grounded and is now a simulator training pilot If that's true, what a wasted investment for AI. From 747 commander to simulator training
33 EMBQA : You all sound shocked...? It's actually a pretty common event that ATC corrects or addresses an issue like that.
34 Post contains images HAWK21M : I think the "Shocking" refers to the Gear up Situation rather than the ATC intervention regds MEL
35 Rocketman742 : Its all very easy to sit back and kick the pilots ass. The pilot who was in command had upto 37 years of flying experience with well over 15000 hrs in
36 Gopal : If the Pilot had not been warned in time , what would have been the consequences ? Would it have resulted in a major air disaster ? Could the pilot ha
37 Stealthpilot : to an extent i agree with you. the pilots may be overworked and stressed, but the fact is he made a dangerous mistake. 40 years from now when i have
38 Jaysit : I spoke to a friend who is a BA pilot who said it takes about 3 seconds to lower the gear from when the 500 ft warning kicks in. This whole incident h
39 Soaringadi : ***"Captain said he was "tired"*** Now thats an excuse isn't it ? Just wonder what kind of responsible guy would say that. Especially a guy with 409 l
40 Post contains images Mrniji : You mean worse? - Well, Bush has the responsibility for a couple of more people - what a good comparison, maybe you should measure him on a scale wit
41 KLM685 : OMG that's the funniest thing I have ever read! I really can't imagine being that hard into a tennis conversation to actually forget to land the plan
42 AJ : From memory on the -400 as soon as the flaps are set to 25 or 30 with the gear up you recieve a configuration warning that cannot be cancelled.
43 HAWK21M : Which is why the Report seems confusing. regds MEL
44 RedFlyer : All this talk about aural warnings...If the crew was busy jaw-jacking, is it possible they may not have heard anything? I recall the Eastern L1011 th
45 HAWK21M : Not one,But would say a chain of events occuring in a sequence leads to Accident. regds MEL
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