AirIndiaOne From India, joined Mar 2005, 146 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 years 1 month 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7459 times:
This article talks about how a trainee ATC saved hundreds of lives when he spotted an Air India jumbo at short finals with its "gear down"
Anybody knew about this piece of news?
Also note that the article mentions the flight no. as 409 and again as 145H later!
TymnBalewne From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 913 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7444 times:
The article says it was flight AI145 with 409 pax onboard.
Gamps From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 469 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7426 times:
I remember this from 2004. It was in some Indian newspapers as well. And if I remember correctly, Captain said he was "tired" - which some think was nothing but a ploy to extract more monies from AI management. I think final word was Air India pilots wanted to show the world that they are "overworked". This was just before AI started LAX operations and pilots were making some noise about extra pay for the hours they put or something. Not sure what happenned to the Captain, though I remember reading he was grounded.
Ryanair!!! From Singapore, joined Mar 2002, 4664 posts, RR: 27 Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6697 times:
The GPWS has 6 modes and one of them is for a warning to chime when the plane gets too close to terrain without the gears... and the "whoop whoop" sounds are hard to miss.
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Thunderbird1 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 225 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5913 times:
This is unbelievable.
Perhaps he was fully informed of what he was doing, and wasn't really intending to land. He may have wanted to do a low speed pass over the runway
VS74741R From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 272 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5873 times:
Quoting AirIndiaOne (Thread starter): This article talks about how a trainee ATC saved hundreds of lives when he spotted an Air India jumbo at short finals with its "gear down"
Don't most aircraft have their "gear down" on short finals
WestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2114 posts, RR: 8 Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5737 times:
Reminds me of a CO 727 that nearly belly landed at ORD - the rear of the fuselage scraped the runway as the crew executed the go around. An AA pilot on the ground noticed and called in CO's lack of gear and the tower controller told the aircraft to go around. The CO crew, in post-incident interviews, stated that they had realised the gear issue themselves and had executed the go-around even before the controller's call.
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MKEdude From South Korea, joined May 2005, 1008 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5628 times:
Quoting Gamps (Reply 3): Captain said he was "tired" - which some think was nothing but a ploy to extract more monies from AI management. I think final word was Air India pilots wanted to show the world that they are "overworked".
Inexcusable no matter what the reason. If this was an oversight than the pilot should be fired for incompetence. If this was on purpose than he should be jailed for endangering hundreds of passengers.
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AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 4938 posts, RR: 27 Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5509 times:
It happened also to a CO DC-9 in IAH, where the crew, forgetting to connect some hydraulics or something (I don't know the works of a DC-9 maybe someone could help), landed without flaps, slats, or gear, and didn't realized it until they actually touched the ground. How it could happen is beyond me. The CVR recorded a pretty interesting conversation about tennis, though
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13369 posts, RR: 64 Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5447 times:
Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 8): The GPWS has 6 modes and one of them is for a warning to chime when the plane gets too close to terrain without the gears... and the "whoop whoop" sounds are hard to miss.
Not just this, you´ll also have the oldfashioned landing configuration warning. Pull the throttles back to idle without having the gear out, you´ll get a loud annoying horn.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11742 posts, RR: 51 Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5309 times:
Quoting WestWing (Reply 18): By the way does 600 ft at "half-mile" away sound correct ? 12 degree slope ?
Is the altitude AGL (Above Ground Level) or MSL (Mean Sea Level)? 600' AGL at 1/2 mile is very high, but if the airport is 300' above sea level, than the 600' MSL is 300' AGL, so that is right. At 1/2 mile you are about 20 seconds from touch down. The normal glide slope is about 3 degrees or 15' per second rate of decent (landing gear are normally stressed at 25' per second sink rate at the max landing weight). So 15' X 20 seconds is 300' AGL, that is the altitude he should have been at for 1/2 mile from touchdown.
A 12 degree slope? No, I wouldn't want that. That is a sink rate of 60' per second. At 300' at 1/2 mile (where you should be), you would hit the ground in 5 seconds, and about 4,000' short of the runway threshold. That would hurt a lot. Not to mention a very broken up airplane. In other words, you have crashed.
WestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2114 posts, RR: 8 Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5263 times:
KC135TopBoom:
Thanks for the explanation.
I looked up the EWR runway threshold elevations. They are ~ 10 feet.
If the GPWS begins complaining only at 500 ft AGL (without gear down and locked) this could explain why the crew had not realised yet. So 600 AGL could be correct. But 600 AGL seems inconsistent with the half-mile away (and a 3 degree glideslope), so they may have been further away than that.
Isn't there a separate gear warning horn which should also have sounded because position of flaps and throttle ? Presumably the crew had muted this. [EDIT: Sorry, just noticed that MD11Engineer already mentioned this]
[Edited 2005-05-21 00:27:26]
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Thunderbird1 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 225 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5239 times:
To me, one of the most amazing parts about this story is the curt and matter of fact way in which the pilot acknowledged the warning that saved his hide: "Air India 145". No thank you or acknowledgement or anything. This could have been a major disaster--the flight was full.
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 4938 posts, RR: 27 Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5197 times:
Can someone explain to me how does the GPWS works when the plane is going above rapidly rising terrain, like the slope of a mountain? I'm thinking about the Mount Erebus crash, or the AA in Cali.
Thanks.
AvionicMech From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 315 posts, RR: 3 Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 2 days ago) and read 5032 times:
Quoting AR385 (Reply 22): Can someone explain to me how does the GPWS works when the plane is going above rapidly rising terrain, like the slope of a mountain? I'm thinking about the Mount Erebus crash, or the AA in Cali.
Thanks.
The standard GPWS would not give you a very good warning if the ground infront of you is rapidly rising or worse still if it a cliff face you would get no warning because all the system really does is look at your configuration of flaps and gear and your rad alt closure rate basically. This is the reason for the recent mandatory installation of the Enhanced GPWS, as this has a terrain database in its memory and knows your position, usually from a GPS input, so can tell you a lot earlier if you are getting too close to that big mountain ahead.
Back to the Air India 747,
There are 6 basic modes for the basic GPWS, the one that would have been shouting at the crew would have been mode 4a I think. But for the warnings to go off you have to be below 500 Ft I think the figure is, so if they were in fact at 600ft as mentioned above they would not have had any warnings from the GWPS system.
Ryanair!!! From Singapore, joined Mar 2002, 4664 posts, RR: 27 Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4924 times:
Can someone explain to me how does the GPWS works when the plane is going above rapidly rising terrain,...
The GPWS utilises this equipment known as the "Radio Altimeter" that sends out pulses of signals and uses the time it takes to return to determine the height of the aircraft. This is then incorporated into the various modes of the GPWS.
The 6 modes that I mentioned all have different parameters to trigger the warning and the warning of terrain with gears up is mode 4A or 4B (cannot remember exactly). And that calls for a warning chime at 500ft.
Hope this explains...
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26 VictorTango: C'mon how could you forget! The poor fellow said he was 'tired' . Or maybe he was too sleepy
27 HAWK21M: Still no Explanation on Why no Warning. regds MEL
28 AvionicMech: The reason there may have been no warning was possibly that the aircraft was not low enough for the GPWS system to kick out a shout at the crew of 'to
29 Stealthpilot: can anyone confirm that the captain is still in command? that is.... i cant think of the right words for it....disgracefull, shocking, dangerous!! my
30 B747-437B: AFAIK, he was grounded and is now a simulator training pilot.
31 HAWK21M: What about L/G Indications & Horns [not GPWS warnings]. regds MEL
32 Thunderbird1: AFAIK, he was grounded and is now a simulator training pilot If that's true, what a wasted investment for AI. From 747 commander to simulator training
33 EMBQA: You all sound shocked...? It's actually a pretty common event that ATC corrects or addresses an issue like that.
34 HAWK21M: I think the "Shocking" refers to the Gear up Situation rather than the ATC intervention regds MEL
35 Rocketman742: Its all very easy to sit back and kick the pilots ass. The pilot who was in command had upto 37 years of flying experience with well over 15000 hrs in
36 Gopal: If the Pilot had not been warned in time , what would have been the consequences ? Would it have resulted in a major air disaster ? Could the pilot ha
37 Stealthpilot: to an extent i agree with you. the pilots may be overworked and stressed, but the fact is he made a dangerous mistake. 40 years from now when i have
38 Jaysit: I spoke to a friend who is a BA pilot who said it takes about 3 seconds to lower the gear from when the 500 ft warning kicks in. This whole incident h
39 Soaringadi: ***"Captain said he was "tired"*** Now thats an excuse isn't it ? Just wonder what kind of responsible guy would say that. Especially a guy with 409 l
40 Mrniji: You mean worse? - Well, Bush has the responsibility for a couple of more people - what a good comparison, maybe you should measure him on a scale wit
41 KLM685: OMG that's the funniest thing I have ever read! I really can't imagine being that hard into a tennis conversation to actually forget to land the plan
42 AJ: From memory on the -400 as soon as the flaps are set to 25 or 30 with the gear up you recieve a configuration warning that cannot be cancelled.
43 HAWK21M: Which is why the Report seems confusing. regds MEL
44 RedFlyer: All this talk about aural warnings...If the crew was busy jaw-jacking, is it possible they may not have heard anything? I recall the Eastern L1011 th
45 HAWK21M: Not one,But would say a chain of events occuring in a sequence leads to Accident. regds MEL
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