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Leahy Is Out Of The Hospital Now, Here We Go..  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8120 times:

For anyone who wondered why Airbus was so quiet during the last few weeks.. Leahy is out of the Hospital now.




The company chief commercial officer had to watch from his bed, recovering from a burst appendix, as Northwest Airlines, Air Canada and Air India all placed big widebody orders with Boeing this month.

“By the end of last year we came out with an aircraft we thought was pretty good. Since December we have improved the aircraft by about three iterations,” he says.

He stresses the new nature of the A350, which he suggests has not been made clear the market, noting: “For $5.5 billion [development costs] I get more then a [A330] derivative.”

An awful lot of pilots will fly the A330 in the morning and the A350 in the afternoon. So although we will take as much of the A380 cockpit as we can without losing the common type-rating [with A330] we believe that is what the airlines want around the world.”

He is irritated by Boeing’s success in talking up 787 features which he claims are matched by the A350, and even by existing Airbus models.

Downplaying the significance of doing away with engine bleed air, he quotes a General Electric study saying there is no change in direct costs; he claims the existing A330 has cabin relative humidity within one percentage point of Boeing’s much-vaunted figures for the 787; and he says the A350 cabin altitude will is

“If I could do the A350 all over again I would have done more advertising earlier, and more public relations earlier, and would not have allowed all those [787] magazine covers to appear.”

Airbus is now coming out fighting and its latest comparison of the basic A350-900 against the 787-900 and 777-200ER, is as shown below – prompting Leahy to remark that: “By 2009 when these come out the 777-200ER is dead.”

103 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25142 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8092 times:
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Very glad he's better - things have been a bit dull around here.  Smile

Or maybe, not dull - just predictable.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8073 times:

I am sure that most of the folks that ordered the 787 would have been willing to wait for him to be back if the 350 would have been a feasible deal for them. As it wasn't, they signed Boeing.

Nice for him that he is doing better, but Keesje, you are probably the only one besides Leahy who believes that his hospital time was a reason for losing the orders. Nonsense!



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6887 posts, RR: 63
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8052 times:

I had no idea he'd been ill. Is it stretching credibility to note that Boeing signed up customers while he was out of action? Yes, I think it is. He isn't Superman.

(Is he...?)

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
“For $5.5 billion [development costs] I get more then a [A330] derivative.”

I don't like it when people employ the first person. It smacks of egocentricity. Airbus aren't doing it for 'him'; he works for the company just like anyone else.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
He is irritated by Boeing’s success in talking up 787 features which he claims are matched by the A350, and even by existing Airbus models.

Well, I wish he'd come on A.Net and settle once and for all all these tedious "The 787 will obviously outperform the A350 in every respect" threads. If we all club together could we find the $25 to sign him up?

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
“If I could do the A350 all over again I would have done more advertising earlier, and more public relations earlier, and would not have allowed all those [787] magazine covers to appear.”

Uh?! How on earth would he have stopped magazines putting the 787 on their covers?! Much as I wish the A350 well, that almost sounds like censorship.

Does he really think he is omnipotent?


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8043 times:

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 2):
you are probably the only one besides Leahy who believes that his hospital time was a reason for losing the orders.

?! You are dreaming things up here.

I suggested he was the reason "Airbus was so quiet during the last few weeks"


User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2090 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8035 times:

Yes he is back and promises big order announcements on the Paris Air Show. I am curious what will happen.

Axel



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineAF-A319 From France, joined Oct 1999, 603 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8023 times:

Let's the battle start again, for our greatest joy and entertainment!

User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2090 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8007 times:

Quoting AF-A319 (Reply 6):
Let's the battle start again, for our greatest joy and entertainment!

Yeah, and we love it!

Axel



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8002 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Downplaying the significance of doing away with engine bleed air, he quotes a General Electric study saying there is no change in direct costs; he claims the existing A330 has cabin relative humidity within one percentage point of Boeing’s much-vaunted figures for the 787; and he says the A350 cabin altitude will is

In all the 787 debates, I've never heard this. Can someone other than a salesman confirm?


User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4480 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7964 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
“If I could do the A350 all over again I would have done more advertising earlier, and more public relations earlier, and would not have allowed all those [787] magazine covers to appear.”

Who died and made Leahy God? Arrogance. Typical.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Airbus is now coming out fighting and its latest comparison of the basic A350-900 against the 787-900 and 777-200ER, is as shown below – prompting Leahy to remark that: “By 2009 when these come out the 777-200ER is dead.”

 Yeah sure Talk it up, Leahy. I didn't miss aviation's biggest mouth.


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7955 times:

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 9):
By 2009 when these come out the 777-200ER is dead.”

Well that's fine. The 772LR has already arrived to replace it.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25142 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7911 times:
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Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 9):
Who died and made Leahy God? Arrogance. Typical.

Arrogance? Leahy? of course! He's from New York.

Typical New Yorker, I guess.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6887 posts, RR: 63
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7905 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 10):
Well that's fine. The 772LR has already arrived to replace it.

But it's hardly a straight swap. What about the airlines who'd be happy with a 772ER but don't want or need the capabilities of a (more expensive) 772LR?


User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4480 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7893 times:

I'm not into stereotypes.

It's the man himself I dislike. It's one thing for him to try to outsell Boeing...that's his job. It's another to be a complete arse about it. I prefer someone who acts like a professional rather than a playground bully. Eventually, someone gets fed up and kicks the bully's ass.

I hope that this year, Boeing owns Leahy.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7893 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 3):
How on earth would he have stopped magazines putting the 787 on their covers?! Much as I wish the A350 well, that almost sounds like censorship.

Does he really think he is omnipotent?

Option 1 : Boeing automatically got all the media attention for the 787 because it is a miracle aircraft that will change the way the human kind travels & will set the benchmark on environmental & passenger friendliness for the coming decades.

Option 2 : Boeing set apart $ x0.000.000 mln, hired an expensive media firm, developed a impressive PR strategy to convince the public they wear the white hats & bought themsleves into all the elevant media, including a.net..

Pick your choice..

Airbus could have done the same, Leahy thinks he should have..


User currently offlineGreaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7871 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 12):
But it's hardly a straight swap. What about the airlines who'd be happy with a 772ER but don't want or need the capabilities of a (more expensive) 772LR?

There's no need to give away what's working good for the airlines. Just because Leahy said the 777-200ER will be dead doesn't mean it will be. Of course, maybe he should tell us the health of the A340-300 by then as well. Of course the A330 can compete well with the 787, that's why Airbus is launching the A350. Yup.



Now you're really flying
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7871 times:

If the A350 could rack up 100+ orders, it could be devastating for the pride of the 787. Boeing's best effort and introducing revolutionary aircraft and it only mildly outperformed the A350. The flipside to this is that maybe the 747ADV won't flop before the A380.

The other way to look at it is that while Boeing has small orders from many customers, Airbus has large orders from few customers. Ethopian Air would have ordered 50 if they needed them and were capable, but they weren't. So in terms of pride, the 787 is defended by the fact that more people like it. It's just that the people who liked the A350 were the ones who placed big orders.

Of course, you all know what this means... Boeing is DOOMED!


User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4480 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7855 times:

Option 1.  Wink

Though, Keesje, Boeing didn't exactly put it that way. Nice exaggeration, though.

The 787 is a significant leap forward though when it comes to Boeing's own product line. If compared only to B's products, the 787 is indeed revolutionary.

I don't know if Leahy is full of it or not when it comes to his claim of the 787's cabin humidity being within 1% of the existing, but when it comes to Boeing aircraft the 787 is going to be the most preferred, thus far, in terms of interior cabin comfort by passengers.


As far as I am concerned Airbus has been #1 for too long. It's nice to see boeing regaining focus. Now I only pray that they continue to outsell the A350, and give that smug used-car salesman that is Leahy something to cry about.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25142 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7850 times:
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Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 13):
I'm not into stereotypes.

Then what is the arrogance typical of?

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 9):
Who died and made Leahy God?

Because that, in itself, is a stereotyping. He doesn't claim to be God. He does claim to be damn good at what he does.

You don't like the style? That is entirely your prerogative. But he is right - he is damn good at what he does.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6887 posts, RR: 63
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7842 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 16):
Boeing's best effort and introducing revolutionary aircraft and it only mildly outperformed the A350.

You don't think it's perhaps a tiny bit premature to be painting this scenario...? I'd say the 787 is still in the driving seat.


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7841 times:

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 17):
I don't know if Leahy is full of it or not when it comes to his claim of the 787's cabin humidity being within 1% of the existing,

Yes, can we have some confirmation on that. Whatever happened to the idea of high humidity causing corrosion and nasty stuff growing in ducts?


User currently offlineGreaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7835 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 16):
If the A350 could rack up 100+ orders, it could be devastating for the pride of the 787. Boeing's best effort and introducing revolutionary aircraft and it only mildly outperformed the A350. The flipside to this is that maybe the 747ADV won't flop before the A380.

If Leahy's mouth didn't run too far again, then 100+ orders was something NO-ONE said won't happen. There will almost undoubtedly be many orders, like for the A340, for the A350. There's no that kind of 'pride' in the 787 as you put it. Fact is, all the usual suspects would buy the A350. Did you expect NW and AC to purchase the 787? Of course getting more customers is a larger benefit then say having one customer (uh-hem EK) sharing most of the risk in your project.You don't know whether the 787 'mildly' outperformed the A350 or not. Nobody does in A.net, really.



Now you're really flying
User currently offlineZoom1018 From Vietnam, joined May 2005, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7830 times:

Leahy is out of the hospital seems to be a reason for a quiet time of Airbus!

User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12109 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7830 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

If only Leahy and Boeings CEO become members on here, then things would get really interesting  Smile

User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4480 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7824 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
Then what is the arrogance typical of?

Typical of HIMSELF. I've rarely seen him be anything but arrogant.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
Because that, in itself, is a stereotyping. He doesn't claim to be God. He does claim to be damn good at what he does.

It's the way the man acts. He may not claim to be God, but he acts as though he thinks of himself that way. He is arrogant. And it is irritating, and that's why I want to see him knocked on his ass.


25 Post contains images PM : ! Give Airbus a chance. After 30 years or more they claw their way to the top for 18 months and suddenly it's "too long"? Is there a natural order of
26 Post contains images Glom : That's what we do on this board, isn't it? Whenever a manufacturer gets a good order, we say the other one is going downhill. If they get 100 orders
27 Mariner : I understand that he is irritating to you. He remains a great salesman. cheres mariner
28 Zoom1018 : Agree! I still remember Airbus kept saying 2 engine aircraft blah blah blah and now they are building an ultra-long-haul twin engine plane... that is
29 Aloha717200 : I would, except the man who does much of the speaking for the company irritates me quite a lot. Maybe if he would shut that hole in his face once in
30 Post contains images PM : Of that there can be no doubt. I suppose humility and good manners don't make great salesmen.
31 Post contains images Greaser : PM, I was just adding in another point haha....
32 Aloha717200 : Not to mention actually congratulating Airbus on a successful first flight. Do we hear Airbus or more specifically, Leahy, showing such diplomacy? No
33 Glom : PM, I've noticed how you seem to challenge both A's and B's equally here. That's highly respectable.
34 Post contains images Columba : I like to compare this thread with the one about the former Continental Airline boss Gordon Bethune saying the biggest passenger jet ever built -the
35 PM : Thanks.
36 PM : I understand your point. The difference is that Bethune's comments are unlikely to be either substantiated or disproved any time soon (if ever) where
37 BoeingBus : Not at all... Boeing is still going to have the upper hand in all respects... Folks, there is a reason why AC, NW and Korea opted for the 787. These
38 NYC777 : Not really, to paraphase a famous line from Star Wars: "He's more European than a New Yorker, twisted and evil!"
39 NYC777 : The 787 has 156 firm orders.
40 Revelation : Yes, I've read the whole thread, but I still don't see how he prevents 787 magazine covers from appearing. Even if magazine covers were for sale, is
41 ORD : More from Leahy in an article I read... "On the A380, Leahy sees "good prospects" with some US Majors despite their financial trouble. "There won't be
42 Scbriml : You're missing the point. He's not saying he has the power to control the press. What he's saying is - if Airbus had the A350 they now have, much ear
43 NAV20 : A mate of mine used to have the old army joke printed out and framed on the wall - "If you can keep your head when everyone else is running round in
44 Post contains images Backfire : It would demonstrate courtesy if the thread opener credited the source of the original information, particularly as the story was written by someone I
45 Scbriml : After the initial flurry of interest around bleedless engines, I believe both RR and GE have said that bleedless isn't a very significant contributor
46 NYC777 : GE has already stated that they will develop a bleeded engine for the 350.
47 Post contains links Keesje : Some of the reasons apart from the fact the 787 will probably be a good aircraft: AC : Boeing is willing to buy all Airbusses (and IMO thats only hal
48 NYC777 : AC: Milton found the economics of the 787 vs the 350 more compelling, read: the 787 is better than the A350 NWA : same as AC KE : same as AC AI : the
49 Post contains images NAV20 : None of us knows for sure, SCbriml. Boeing claim 20% better efficiency per passenger - but I don't imagine even they could tell you how much of that
50 Keesje : Yes, and also price, at least that is what he said on April 24, and the fact Boeing buys all the airbusses. Air Canada’s top executive today intima
51 BoeingBus : This is my whole point!!!! Airbus is developing another over priced trojan horse... I am telling you that Airbus is making a huge mistake by not rein
52 NYC777 : That's only if AC cannot sell the planes themselves. How convenient that you left that out.
53 Post contains images Scbriml : Yes, but that was the "old" A350. I haven't seen anything for the new one. I suspect we'll be blitzed at Paris! Yes they have, and the new engines co
54 MrComet : Leahy is the master of the mis-direction as shown by his bleedless engine comments. He has misled the public for years. If he is misleading the airlin
55 NAV20 : Maybe, SCbriml. Time will tell. But would you risk getting hauled into court for violating an agreement that guarantees you the position of being one
56 NYC777 : It's the engine makers that have been pushing the manufacturers to go bleedless. Only Boeing has responded. How do you explain that? To make the A350
57 Post contains links Keesje : In the same article a cost comparison 359, 789,772ER ..............................A350-900.......787-900......777-200ER 3-class seating............30
58 Keesje : So basicly Air Canada doesn't have to sell them, only if convenient.. Boeingbus, are you telling us Airbusses are overpriced & Boeings lower priced b
59 Post contains images Daedaeg : Oh my the dead has arisen. Well good for him. The arrogant American will try to save the day of the European conglomerate. Will he do it? Stay tuned o
60 Revelation : The original quote was: So he certainly did say he could control the press, or he was misquoted. I realize the man lives to be a provocateur but that
61 Scbriml : But can you show me where either Boeing or RR or GE has said that such an agreement exists? If it does exist, why the secrecy? There's no secrecy aro
62 Post contains images Keesje : IMO RR or GE would be mad to do that, Airbus is their biggest customer.
63 Post contains images Scbriml : All he's saying, in his ususal colourful way, is that he wishes Airbus had given the magazines the option of putting a competetive A350 on their cove
64 Glom : Yeah, because everyone knows how little interest there's been in the A380.
65 Post contains images NAV20 : It can't be just a coincidence that the thoughts of Airbus fans, at any suggestion of a setback, immediately turn towards some kind of blackmail For
66 N60659 : If you include all the announced and signed orders, the 787 has racked up 255 firm orders and 182 options. At present, the 787 does seem to have the
67 LMP737 : Mr. Leahy has never had to work on an aircraft with pneumatic problems.
68 NYC777 : What an idiot!!! The significance of bleedless engines is not the humidity level in the cabin but the elimination of the duct and piping work through
69 Post contains images NYC777 : Actually now it is up to 162 firm orders with the 6 UFO 787s announced today on Boeing's web site. It's probably LO order for 6 787s.
70 Post contains images Leskova : You know, if you actually read what's written in that quote of yours, you'll find that Leahy does not connect the two things - they're separated by a
71 Glom : What about Leahy's statement that the A330 already betters the cabin atmosphere of the 787?
72 Mdsh00 : Yeah he says that in hindsight. The 7E7 program was routinely bashed by him as he predicted the failure of the "point-to-point" system over the "hub-
73 Columbia107 : Leahy may say what he wishes to say but the development of the A350 needs to be funded and it seems to me that Government "loans" will not be availabl
74 Post contains links Keesje : I think Airbus will get the loans to level the playing field with the 787 $6Bill subsidies. Possible but unlikely.. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/new
75 NYC777 : There are no subsidies for Boeing or the 787. What have you been smoking, I want some.
76 Post contains links Keesje : Sorry to ruin your reference world, but they do. http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/reports/7e7Subsidies.pdf It's page 65.. bottom but it
77 NorCal : I don't see how Boeing getting tax breaks or having risk sharing partners is unfair. If Airbus wanted to, and would most likely would if they win the
78 Post contains images AeroPiggot : Out of the hospital, and shooting off his mouth as usual. 60% Composite airplane......sounds rather familiar. Boeing leads and the BUS follows.
79 Areopagus : The shoe was on the other foot a few years ago, with Airbus making lots of small sales to airlines around the world while Boeing had big deals with U
80 Ken777 : Glad to hear Leahy is doing well medically and I expect that he will have some impressive 350 orders at the Paris Show. The question will be the price
81 Columba : Would not be too bad, since he is neither German or Frensh. He would be "neutral".
82 Keesje : Yes, among other things. ..............................A350-900.......787-900......777-200ER 3-class seating............300...............265........
83 Post contains images Boeing Nut : Sounds like Leahy is getting a lot of "medicinal" marijuana with those remarks. I've heard better remarks out of my grandfathers ass.
84 NorCal : what is block fuel/seat and what is MWE/seat?
85 Post contains images Glideslope : How true.
86 Gearup : Why don't you talk some sense for a change, you can be sure they understand perfectly well, and certainly more than you do. To hear you talk, Airbus
87 Post contains images KC135R : But remember (according to Airbus), first the 787 wasn't going to be a threat to the A330 - then an A330 with GEnx engines was going to be good enoug
88 Freedom4all : I'm sorry....what an ass!! was it a mental hospital he got out of, i don't usally bash airbus in the forum, but i might start knowing this guy is on
89 Post contains images Scbriml : 1st widebody twin? 1st FBW commercial airliner? 1st composite primary structure?
90 Glom : That was Concorde. Does the troubles with the American legacies spell trouble for Boeing in getting many really big orders?
91 Post contains images Scbriml : With an analogue system, yes. 1st digital FBW commercial airliner?
92 PM : No. They won't be getting 60+ orders for the 787 from AA and DL (and UA) any time soon but it beggars belief that a plane already as well received as
93 Columba : @Scbriml I gave up -let the Boeing folks believe that they have the greatest and best plane around and that Airbus will always be the inferior follow
94 Glom : By the criteria you have laid out, an aircraft can only be superior if it is revolutionary. I take it then that you cede that the 747 is superior to
95 Revelation : If a manufacturer decides an order is strategic, they can go to extraordinary lengths to close the deal. Witness what Airbus is doing for HP/US and w
96 Post contains links Revelation : More evidence that Leahy is full of it, at least according to this link: What a piece of work that guy is! Mothers, hide your daughters!
97 Keesje : I think we should avoid attacking people on things they didn't say. FUSELAGE width was only an interpretation by analist & some folks here Exact quote
98 Post contains images Boeing Nut : These remarks are why I can't stand Airbus the company - Airbus the product is/are wonderful examples of aeronautical designs. Sometimes I wish the en
99 PM : ONE "PR clown" and he does not hold a European passport...
100 Post contains images Slider : BS! With the advancements in electrics, there is significant room for cost savings with a sea-change in terms of technology. LOL! "Rise Darth Leahy!"
101 Revelation : Are you glad that Airbus's chief commercial officer is misleading the less knowledgable people?
102 Post contains images Scbriml : Doesn't matter. Less knowledgable people don't tend to run airlines. Let's see what some people who do run airlines buy from Airbus at Paris.
103 Post contains images Backfire : My source is fairly insistent that they're not LOT's.
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