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A350 Tackles 767, 777, 787; Replaces 300, 310 & 330  
User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1290 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10498 times:

Now that the A350 design is being refined it seems like Airbus' plan is to produce an all new airplane family that will go head to head with the Boeing 777 but not only. It could very well be that the A350 will be positioned just like the A320 family, offering a series of stretched solutions. One can then imagine that there could be an A350 to replace the A310 and B767-200, one to replace the A300 and B767-300/400, one to replace the A330-200 and one to replace the A330-300 and B777-200s; perhaps even all 777s and A340s!

This would mean that Airbus, after renewing the A320 family, would be capable to offer a comprehensive solution to cover airline needs from 100 to 600 seats by reasonable steps. Only the unlikelihood of an A380 shrink would leave a portion of that range somewhat orphan.

Where Airbus would cover the market with 3 families, Boeing would still need 4 product lines i.e. an all new 737 replacement, the 787, the 777 and something at the top to replace 747-400s if they intend to get a share of that market.

Are you sharing this opinion, do you see it coming, do you think the A350 program will not be that ambitious? Have a go. Thread started!


I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
87 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10479 times:

I don't think the A350 will ever be a good replacement for A310, 767-200.

Basicly too big/heavy, just like the A330-200. The 787-3 seems to have better cards there.

Also replacing 777-300ER/A340-500/600 seems unlikely..


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10817 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10433 times:

I fully agree with what Keesje wrote. Plus that a A350 will hardly make a ideal A300 replacement as the A300 is a short-and mediumhaul aircraft. The A350s wings are too big. And a A350 with different wings is a different aircraft.
So the A350 will just be what it is, the replacement of the A330 and A340-300.


User currently offlineFlyingInTheSky From Kuwait, joined Dec 2004, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10270 times:

The A350 was introduced when Boeing presented their B787 ,and the main objective for these aircraft is to cover short to medium range or maybe a little longer ,So I can Imagine how the A350 will look like .

I would say it will cover most likely short to medium range replacing the A300/A310/A332 also B737 & B767 .

Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
Also replacing 777-300ER/A340-500/600 seems unlikely..

Totally agree with that .

My regards ,,,


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10248 times:

It's easier for Boeing to grow the 787 than Airbus to shrink the 350 to compete w/ the 763 and the replacement for the A300/10.

So no... The A350 may be a bit bigger but only by a few rows...

Cheers

[Edited 2005-05-20 14:24:49]


Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineAerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2749 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10218 times:

Airbus always seems to take this approach - intro a plane and then procede to shrink/stretch it, whereas Boeing appears to have learnt that it's best to get the basic frame and stretch the hell out of it.

In terms of what the market wants, Boeing's on the nail with the 787 as a 767/A310/A300 replacement. I suspect the new single aisle design will span the 120-200 seat bracket, enabling a single family to replace the 757 as well as 737s.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11983 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10199 times:

Now if only an airline would actually buy the A350 without having to be bribed...

User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12898 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10171 times:
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Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
Now if only an airline would actually buy the A350 without having to be bribed...

Perhaps we'll review this comment after the Paris Air Show?  wink 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10108 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
Now if only an airline would actually buy the A350 without having to be bribed...

Wait till Be Bourget, there will be other airlines ordering the A350.
Besides I would not call it bribery but this is discussed in a lot of other threads here......



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2491 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10044 times:

Wait till Be Bourget, there will be other airlines ordering the A350.
Besides I would not call it bribery but this is discussed in a lot of other threads here......


at the end of le bourget, Airbus will have +- 100 confirmed A350 orders... they said that themselves...

seems like an winner to me already, just like the 787


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11983 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10015 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
Besides I would not call it bribery but this is discussed in a lot of other threads here

I would definitely call Airbus giving $250 million to a merging American airline so they can become the launch customer for a market flop of an aircraft "bribery."


User currently offlineAp305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9997 times:

According to media reports some time back there was a specific project meant for the replacement of the a300/a310. This aircraft was known as the p305 and later as the a305. It would have been all new and targeted the short/medium range market. This aircraft would have also spawned an eventual rival rangewise to the 787. I guess Airbus decided it would make more sense to do a long range a/c derived from the a330 first rather than wait and develop a complete all new family.

Regards
Ap305


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9956 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
Now if only an airline would actually buy the A350 without having to be bribed...

Is it really nessessary to hijack every airbus post with such comments? There are many more threads at the moment where you could have posted this appropriatly. These posts are spoiling perfectly good discussions.


User currently offlineGodBless From Sweden, joined Apr 2000, 2753 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9885 times:

If Boeing can replace everything from the 752 to the 764/772 with the 787 why should Airbus not be able to replace the same range of planes with it's new product?
I often have the impression that many people here think that the 787 will be the last step of aircraft development and nothing will ever be able to beat it nor come close to it.
Reality for sure will look different, 30 years from now airlines will replace them by a new state of the art and unbeatable aircraft.
Considering that you can often hear that the 787 will replace the 772 than it might not take so long until the 787 finds a replacement a/c...

Max


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9851 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):
I would definitely call Airbus giving $250 million to a merging American airline so they can become the launch customer for a market flop of an aircraft "bribery

public, published, negotiated bribery?


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3516 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9827 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):

I would definitely call Airbus giving $250 million to a merging American airline so they can become the launch customer for a market flop of an aircraft "bribery."

Ever heard about 767 tanker case? If not do some search on the web. Very entertaining and the word "bribe" is very common in this case.


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9760 times:

What's the point of replacing the 772 if you can't replace the 773?

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7007 posts, RR: 63
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9706 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):
I would definitely call Airbus giving $250 million to a merging American airline so they can become the launch customer for a market flop of an aircraft "bribery."

You can call it whatever you like but the aerospace world is full of buyer/supplier relationships that are less than "free and fair". Remember what happened when El Al wanted A330s? How many planes have GECAS bought that don't have GE/CFM engines? Talking of GECAS, what about their involvement with a number of ailing US airlines? Saudia was about to buy RR Trents for their 777s but then someone in Washington DC made a phone call... As I've said elsewhere, I don't mind people pointing out the distortions in the market. What I don't like is the holier-than-thou attitude from those who believe that only the opposition do such things.


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5803 posts, RR: 47
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9692 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
Besides I would not call it bribery but this is discussed in a lot of other threads here......

No it's just putting a gun to an airlines head and making them an offer they can't refuse...either their signature will be on it or their brains. Does anyone really think that they would have bought the airplane if they didn't have a real need for exit financing. I guess this is the only way Airbus can sell the A350...if they can't get the order they  cry  and have a  hissyfit  a la AI or they prey upon bankrupt airlines and basically tell them they have to buy it or no mullah.

BTW, I wonder if this can be considered anti-competitive as Airbus has forced US Airways to make Airbus a sole source supplier?



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9654 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 18):
AI

Now you mention it how would you qualify that deal then?  Wink


User currently offline'Longreach' From Australia, joined Jul 2001, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9591 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 18):
BTW, I wonder if this can be considered anti-competitive as Airbus has forced US Airways to make Airbus a sole source supplier?

I haven't read much into this deal but to me it sounds clever!


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9578 times:

I have a feeling that Airbus will not only announce 350 orders at the Paris Show, but will also announce additional version of the 350. I also believe that they will increase their stated competitive position against the 787. the key is if they will put their money where their mouth is in terms of guaranteed performance when it comes time to write orders.

I believe that the initial 350 was rushed in order to dampen the 787's initial reception and that Airbus has had time to mature their thinking about the design. It should be a better plane than they initially disclosed and it should be reasonably close to the 787 in terms of economy. The challenge will be having a competitive cost per seat, not only in operational areas, but also in purchase price.

While I love the concepts of the 787 I hope Airbus can have a solid plane to compete with. We should see in Paris.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5794 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9558 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 12):
Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
Now if only an airline would actually buy the A350 without having to be bribed...



Quoting EI321 (Reply 12):
Is it really nessessary to hijack every airbus post with such comments? There are many more threads at the moment where you could have posted this appropriatly. These posts are spoiling perfectly good discussions.

Exactly. Sometimes the inflammatory comments completely discredit otherwise valid arguments, and it ruins the conversation for everyone.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 18):
Does anyone really think that they would have bought the airplane if they didn't have a real need for exit financing.

Well, it's up to US/HP to decide what's best for them. It sounds like they have quite a bit of financial support for the merger, so they probably could have lived without the Airbus deal. I agree that they likely would not have ordered new planes at this time, but if it works for them, why not?

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 18):
I guess this is the only way Airbus can sell the A350...if they can't get the order they and have a a la AI or they prey upon bankrupt airlines and basically tell them they have to buy it or no mullah.

It's comments like this that make every Boeing supporter (such as myself) look bad. What purpose does it serve to throw statements out like this? They've obviously got a few things up their sleeve for the Paris Air Show, which no one should be surprised by, and they've also sold a good hunk of planes over the past five years that I doubt were all done through bribery.

As much as I like Boeing, it's hard to see how you benefit them or their supporters by making these comments.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7007 posts, RR: 63
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9525 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 18):
Does anyone really think that they would have bought the airplane if they didn't have a real need for exit financing. I guess this is the only way Airbus can sell the A350...if they can't get the order they and have a a la AI or they prey upon bankrupt airlines and basically tell them they have to buy it or no mullah.

I hope you will agree that that is not how Airbus sold 3,500 A320s or sold more A300s/A310s/A330s/A340s than Boeing sold 767s/777s... Are you really suggesting that Airbus would invest $6,000,000,000 developing a model that they could only force on airlines? If so, then your prejudices are elbowing aside your common sense.


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9523 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
but also in purchase price.

Given that the aircraft is much bigger, I don't see that this is the case except for special deals, which of course are the rule with sales. I don't think the list price of the A350 could be lower than the 787.


25 Columba : They could have asked Boeing for a similar deal. It is their decision to take the offer or look somewhere else for loans. It is nothing but a deal no
26 Aseem : i can see a reflection of that aircraft in your username. So as you say, that defunct a/p305 metamorphosed into A350? rgds VT-ASJ
27 Gigneil : The 787 is primarily a long-to-ultra-long-haul aircraft. The 787-3 is a bit of an afterthought. The A350 is not going to cover the short or medium ra
28 PM : Er, a tad premature?
29 Zvezda : A B787-10 will most likely replace the B777-200ER, but not the B777-200LR. What's the point? A B787-10 would have lower manufacturing costs, lower op
30 BlackKnight : I am an Engineer and am data driven. Besides the 1st order for 10 how many of the additional or possible additional orders are without Airbus providi
31 PM : I have no idea. Have you? On the other hand, how much do you know about the financial side of the 787/777 AC deal or - gulp - that Air India deal?
32 PM : Thinking a bit more about your post, please therefore be good enough to share with us your data as opposed to your assumptions.
33 DAYflyer : I dont think it is that ambitious. I actually agree with you for once. Don't fall out of your chair.
34 RJ111 : Airbus should take a good look at modifying the grandaddy of Airbus designs, the A300. That thing is lighter than the 783! I don't know how costly and
35 Post contains images Atlantic : even if it were true... people will buy it and there is unfortunately nothing you can do about it it must be really hard but stop whining, ok?
36 N1120A : While Commavia's comments were not the best put, the same thing happens in Boeing threads as well. Perfectly good discussions or perfectly pathetic p
37 JAM747 : No matter what preference of a/c builder we might have it is good for every one that Airbus and Boeing are building two competitive models. The compet
38 Tockeyhockey : that is such BS! if you don't like what someone is saying, just ignore him. make your points and ignore the people you don't think are posting approp
39 Ap305 : Aseem wrote:"So as you say, that defunct a/p305 metamorphosed into A350?". Metamorphosed in the sense that it became the airbus response to the 787/ye
40 Areopagus : Oh, come on. That's like saying the 330 is an afterthought to the 340.
41 PanAmDC10 : Why don't Airbus and Boeing just merge, or at least work together, and stop all this arguing amd name calling? It would be a far stronger company.
42 Aseem : thanks for a great reply. In fact airbus has been too involved with their prestigious A380 project. Now that is off the ground, we might see some fra
43 NYC777 : From the US AIrways - AWA Press Release: "To rationalize international flying, the merged company will work with Airbus to transition to an all-Airbu
44 Aseem : Uresh, so Airbus is conquering Boeing land..good for them after months of ranting about AI and AC.. rgds VT-ASJ
45 BlackKnight : Do a search there are many links posted for various news agencies. Bottom line which is either right or wrong, there is a whole lot more to these dea
46 Dan2002 : And I hope you agree that Boeing has sold more 737s than all the 'Busses combined! -Dan
47 BrightCedars : Sounds like single source for... hem... International fleet.
48 Astuteman : Here we go again! Airbus made $450M after tax + interest ($800M pre-tax) in the FIRST QUARTER of 2005. "All costs"?????
49 Commavia : I would just like to state for the record that I was not making my comments as a blanket statement on Airbus fortunes and success or failure, nor was
50 BlackKnight : [quote=Astuteman,reply=48]Here we go again! Airbus made $450M after tax + interest ($800M pre-tax) in the FIRST QUARTER of 2005. "All costs"????? Plea
51 Post contains images Galapagapop : Comparing A300s/A310s/A330s/A340s to 767s/777s is fudging the facts. If you want aircraft that date from the 70's include 727's or soemthing fair as
52 Avek00 : As a long-haul plane, the 350 might well compete effectively against the 787. But as a 330 derivative platform, the 350 will not be competitive as a
53 AC777233LR : I'd call it doing business.
54 Commavia : Doing business would be offering the plane at a competitive price, competing head-on with Boeing and winning the order. Handing $250 million to a Fra
55 AC777233LR : Bribery is illegal, doing business is legal. Assuming the (paper) a350 is inferior to the (paper) 787. Airbus is taking advantage of its strengths (g
56 Commavia : That's why I used the phrase "legalized bribery." If I say to you, AC777233LR, that I will give you $10 and in return you have to promise to buy your
57 Post contains images Glideslope : I love all these threads over the past few days. We should call these threads "Return of John Leahy, Airbus Propagandist Extraordinar". I have to admi
58 Zvezda : Do we really know the OEW of the B787-3 yet? Anyway, the B787-3 is substantially larger than the A300. Prices would be high and innovation would end.
59 RJ111 : I've heard it's going to weigh 2,000lbs more than the A300, basically because the 787 as a platform is more geared for long haul. The 783 is somewhat
60 Propulsion : Some earlier model yes. Not most of the range though. No. Far too heavy and large to be considered in the same market scope. No. It has never been an
61 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Only when the U.N. flag flies above both nations. -R
62 Post contains images Davejondi : It is pretty clear that Boeing has a head start in this battle. The 787 will be flying within two years and staking it's claim as yet another amazing
63 B787 : I think it is more of a case of 'buying' the customer. This said, I bet Boeing are kicking themselves for not doing the same thing. I guess it's just
64 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Ya, pot calling the kettle black I guess . I respect what you're saying. Sometimes I get tired of the "posting police" too, but when one or two peopl
65 Post contains images Persotvik : Hi The conclusion is: Boeing must open the MD11 production line. A modified MD11 with 777 style interior and it's cargocapabilities combined with no E
66 StickShaker : Nice assessment Ken - I read it much the same way. Airbus have given several hints that they are considering higher gross weight versions of the A350
67 Atmx2000 : I think they will have to be careful about that. By already broaching the A345/6 replacement, they only invite even more scrutiny regarding finances
68 Dhefty : Has Airbus already shown their cards too early? It seems to me that it's a risky move to introduce a new line that can't be delivered for many years
69 Zvezda : The A340-500 is in urgent need of replacement. It's difficult to imagine it winning any further orders against the B777-200LR. On the other hand, the
70 Finkenwerder : The other option being let these laggard airlines collapse as they should have long ago.
71 OldAeroGuy : How can you support that statement? The empty weight of an A345 is 20 tonne higher than a 772LR and its MTOW is 32.5 tonne higher yet it's range is a
72 Atmx2000 : I think he means in comparison to what modern technology would give you. Yeah, well if your payment schedule doesn't require you to pay back a portio
73 OldAeroGuy : I agree, but that's not what he said. The central point remains that if the A350 is sized to replace the 772ER with growth to replace the 777LRs, the
74 Zvezda : Airbus have effectively competed at every length of a common fuselage from the A300 to the A340-600. I'm sure they would like to believe that they ca
75 StickShaker : Yes - the comparison was A359 vs 772. Not a critisism of the 777 but it cant help be heavier than 787/350 type aircraft. The 345/346 are certainly he
76 Post contains images Lehpron : People in here like to take baby steps, they're like the gravitationally challenged people of this world, most of whom cannot see past their belt buc
77 Glom : So the 777 is near death?
78 Atmx2000 : The 772LR and 773ER models have a long life ahead of them. The 772A/ER will need to be protected against Airbus's encroachments.
79 Post contains images Solnabo : It´s always "bribes" or "giving away the a/c´s for nothing when it comes to Airbus and how they deal with buyers, according to 99,9 Boeing people/ U
80 Post contains images Aerokiwi : So I take it the whole Airbus-thing of using "studies" to show passengers prefer 4 engines for long haul flights has been quietly dropped then? How in
81 Post contains images Persotvik : Three engines is the way to go
82 Glom : No doubt. Most passengers wouldn't even know how many engines their aircraft has. What they are likely to be more aware of is the ticket price and if
83 Widebodyphotog : I don't share this opinion at all and here is why: An ambitious plan such as this one has many difficult, if not impossible obstacles to overcome. Fi
84 Astuteman : You lost me there, BlackKnight. BAE SYSTEMS owns 20% of Airbus, and I work for BAE SYSTEMS. We're a publicly quoted company with audited books, and A
85 OldAeroGuy : I respect both these statements as they sum up the Airbus dilemma about what to do with the A350. If they make the A350 a strong 777 competitor, they
86 Zvezda : Airbus may not have the opportunity to eliminate the A340-500/600 as competitive products. The B777-200LR has already eliminated the A340-500 as a co
87 Ikramerica : considering that ETOPS is being redefined to include 3 and 4 engine jets and the 777ER/LR already have 207 which covers nearly all of the globe, the c
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