Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350  
User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9909 times:

Approximately $675 million of additional cash financing is being secured through a combination of refunding of certain deposits, debt refinancing (which reduces collateralization) and signing bonuses from companies interested in long-term business relationships with the merged airline. The companies have signed commitments or firm proposals for more than $425 million in additional cash liquidity from strategic partners and vendors, including over $300 million in a signing bonus and a loan from prospective affinity credit card providers for the merged company. Negotiations with credit card companies are still in progress. Another $250 million will come from Airbus in the form of a loan. The companies have also agreed that the merged company will be the launch customer for the Airbus A350, with deliveries scheduled from 2011 to 2013.

http://www.luchtzak.com/article8707.html
http://money.cnn.com/2005/05/19/news/midcaps/airlines/index.htm

[Edited 2005-05-20 15:43:26]

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9881 times:

If they last till 2011 and 2013.

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5744 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9843 times:

Agreed, doubt they will. We also see now how Airbus will sell the A350...put a gun to the head of any bankrupt airline and say either your sugnature will be on it or your brains. In order to get any orders they have to force them to buy a plane that they didn't want'

Does anyone in their right minds trully believe that US needed or wants this plane?



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9829 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
January 20th, 2009 Can't Come Fast Enough!  Smile

What is Jan 20th, 2009 if you dont mind asking. . . .


User currently offlineN501US From United States of America, joined May 2005, 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9803 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I'm guessing he doesn't care for President Bush.........it is inauguration day.


Fools and thieves are well disguised in the temple and the marketplace.....
User currently offlineSjoerd From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9740 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
Does anyone in their right minds trully believe that US needed or wants this plane?

Airbus just made the best out of a bad situation, US going bankrupt won't help Airbus selling A320s. Not to mention all the planes US is paying off. US has A330s on order, they will probably be changed into A350s.

Offering financial support is not very different from offering a very low price for a plane, something both manufacturers do.

Also US doesn't have to take the financial help !

Sjoerd

[Edited 2005-05-20 16:04:57]


Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9716 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
Agreed, doubt they will. We also see now how Airbus will sell the A350...put a gun to the head of any bankrupt airline and say either your sugnature will be on it or your brains.

And then having the balls to ask the British government to help them pay for developing said aircraft. But that's for another thread running.  Big grin


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5744 posts, RR: 47
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9655 times:

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 5):
Airbus just made the best out of a bad situation, US going bankrupt won't help Airbus selling A320s. Not to mention all the planes US is paying off. US has A330s on order, they will probably be changed into A350s.

Airbus is desperate to try and sell an inferior aircraft, that's why they made the financing conditional on the purchase of the A350. It's plain as balck and white.

This is probably an aircraft that too much airplane for US to handle.

Not only that they are forced to purchase this meaning they will have to finance the purchase (god knows who's going to be crazy enough to give them money to buy airplanes that they really don't need) and this means that they will add more debt to the books and makes their financial viability even more in doubt.

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 5):
Also US doesn't have to take the financial help !

Yes they do, it's either that or liquidation. You don't think that's gun to their head with the hammer cocked??!!

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 5):
US has A330s on order, they will probably be changed into A350s.

There is no mention of any conversion of the order to the A330. Airbus would be stupid to do that. They need to sell US the A330s now rather than the A350 6 years from now where they survival is very much in doubt. Airbus knows this and did not defer any of the A330 orders or write in a conversion into the agreement. The only planes that are defered are the A320s.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9585 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 5):
Airbus is desperate to try and sell an inferior aircraft

Anything to back up this bold statement NYC777?


User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9550 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Airbus is desperate to try and sell an inferior aircraft, that's why they made the financing conditional on the purchase of the A350. It's plain as balck and white.

your definetly right. NOT... Sure Airbus will tell US, you know what here is $250 million, but we dont want anything in return. What kind of investment would that be?

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5744 posts, RR: 47
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9511 times:

Quoting KL808 (Reply 9):
What kind of investment would that be?

They could have just made an equity investment into US that way they prevent US from failing and saturating the market with 100s of A320s! That would be a very bad day for Airbus. But they threw in the condition to buy an inferior aircraft to boot.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
Anything to back up this bold statement NYC777?

255 orders from 20 airlines including some very loyal A330 operators.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9470 times:

At least they make it look nice but I still go with the 7E7. . . anyone want to photoshop this and make it with US Air Colors?

Here is a link to the full picture

http://www.eads.net/xml/content/OF00000000400004/8/03/33620038.jpg



[Edited 2005-05-20 16:47:11]

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9461 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Airbus is desperate to try and sell an inferior aircraft, that's why they made the financing conditional on the purchase of the A350. It's plain as balck and white.

Facts please and no wild speculations.
No one on this board can clearly say to this very moment that the A350 is an inferior aircraft. By the way inferior to what ? Inferior to another engineer´s screensaver on some PC/Mac of the other side of the Atlantic ?
Let both planes be build, let both planes take of and let both planes enter commercial service before say something about both planes. At the moment they are nothing but concepts which can be changed a dozen times.
What is left of the radical ideas of the 787 ? It has started as the Sonic Cruiser, became a upgraded 767, then after some marketing engineers redesigned it again it to look different then the other planes around it was offered a while (succesfully ) but it just become a plastic 767 again.


Don´t take me wrong I love the 787 and have said that very often on this board but who knows maybe the A350 will outperform and outsell the 787. Can´t say at this moment - I doubt it-but it is possible. So before nothing is clear I would not call either plane inferior to the other.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineSjoerd From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 9459 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Airbus is desperate to try and sell an inferior aircraft,

First of all Airbus is trying to save US, so they don't loose the constant stream of cash from US for the aircraft already in US' fleet and any loan has conditions. I agree that US wouldn't buy the A350 otherwise, this doesn't mean that things will not work out US and Airbus in the end however.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
This is probably an aircraft that too much airplane for US to handle

The new US will be a different and much larger airline and they already operate the A333, so they know what there buying sizewise.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Yes they do, it's either that or liquidation. You don't think that's gun to their head with the hammer cocked??!!

Is it Airbus' fault that US is in such bad shape ? You as an American should be thankfull that Airbus (and all the other investors) do this. Hopefully to the benefit of both US and the investors.

Sjoerd



Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4745 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 9444 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
And then having the balls to ask the British government to help them pay for developing said aircraft

well, I suspect since the UK treasury has been getting hundreds of millions of pounds annually in royalties (besides the interest and principal on the loans they had given) from Airbus since the mid 90s, they are quite happy to throw more tax payers money at yet another Airbus project because, while past performance does not predict future returns, this has been a very good investment for the UK taxpayer so far!

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
But they threw in the condition to buy an inferior aircraft to boot.

since no one knows what this newest iteration of the A350 is all about , I guess you have ESP


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 9381 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
255 orders from 20 airlines including some very loyal A330 operators.

A350 is two yrs behind the 7e7/787. 2 years ago Boeing was nowhere with the 7e7. IMO that didn't make the 7e7 inferior.


User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 9340 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
They could have just made an equity investment into US that way they prevent US from failing and saturating the market with 100s of A320s! That would be a very bad day for Airbus. But they threw in the condition to buy an inferior aircraft to boot.

Do you even know how hard it is to secure an investment of $250 million? Why should Airbus just do an equity investment, where they can one up that.

With respect to the "inferior aircraft" comment. All I have to say is, we dont know Jack ish. Unless you have ESP as Trex8 says. =P

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 9261 times:

In any case, it's a sweet deal. As I said on another thread, suppose you were in personal bankrupcy and GM offers you a loan for $5k now if you agree to buy a $40k car in 2011. Of course you take the loan! It kinda sucks if you are Ford, but that's life.


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5744 posts, RR: 47
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 9234 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
In any case, it's a sweet deal. As I said on another thread, suppose you were in personal bankrupcy and GM offers you a loan for $5k now if you agree to buy a $40k car in 2011. Of course you take the loan! It kinda sucks if you are Ford, but that's life.

Yes but you have to find a way to not only repay GM the loan but you also have to find a way to pay for the $40k car! And if you have a history of bankruptcy you not going to get financing so easily! Sucks if you're GM.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineWingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2230 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 9193 times:

Facts please????? Are you guys not understanding what you're reading in balck and white print in the newspapers? Airbus is lending an ultra high risk airline money to stay afloat in the medium term and in exchange forcing them to buy a plane that doesn't fit any possible long-term strategy. Do you honestly believe that America West executives are taking on the 350 with a grin? You must be mad. They are doing it only because Airbus is paying them to. And with an all-new cross section according to Leahy this is an additional $10B project ontop of the 380 and A400M. To take on this level of risk is completely unprecedented in the annals of industrial history during times of peace. I simply don't understand how Boeing can compete with a company that can just pull $10B projects out of its ass on command and at 5 year intervals while principal on past due has not even begun to be repaid. It is an economic and financial miracle. La Madonna has arisen in Toulouse.

User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12462 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 9148 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Wingman (Reply 19):
And with an all-new cross section according to Leahy

Incorrect. Leahy was putting some spin on the fact that with thinner linings, the A350 cabin will be slightly wider than the A330. The external fuselage is the same size.

Quoting Wingman (Reply 19):
Airbus is lending an ultra high risk airline money to stay afloat in the medium term and in exchange forcing them to buy a plane that doesn't fit any possible long-term strategy.

Has the newly-merged airline told you what their long-term strategy is?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9123 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
We also see now how Airbus will sell the A350...put a gun to the head of any bankrupt airline and say either your sugnature will be on it or your brains.

I'm already looking forward to see AA, DL and UA going for the A350.  Wink
According to your logic, we can expect such moves, can't we? Big grin

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
In order to get any orders they have to force them to buy a plane that they didn't want'

How do you know that US didn't want a larger plane to increase longhaul services? Somehow I get the impression you are not in a position to judge what a major airline needs in 2011...  Yeah sure

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
Does anyone in their right minds trully believe that US needed or wants this plane?

Who are you asking? Yourself?  Silly

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
And then having the balls to ask the British government to help them pay for developing said aircraft.

Being aggressive saves your business...

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Airbus is desperate to try and sell an inferior aircraft, that's why they made the financing conditional on the purchase of the A350.

How do you know the current A350 design is inferior? At this point of time we don't know which changes the original A350 design has received.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Not only that they are forced to purchase this meaning they will have to finance the purchase (god knows who's going to be crazy enough to give them money to buy airplanes that they really don't need) and this means that they will add more debt to the books and makes their financial viability even more in doubt.

Airbus will not threaten the market value of their own planes, so they know what they are doing. If there weren't anything to win, they wouldn't offer the deal.
We all know very little about the whole deal and the planes involved - but what I know for sure is that Airbus people definitely know more about financing than YOU.  cheerful 

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Yes they do, it's either that or liquidation. You don't think that's gun to their head with the hammer cocked??!!

No. They are offered an attractive solution to their problems plus a modern aircraft which could be used for longhaul expansion. Sounds fair. If they don't want to, they don't have to agree.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
But they threw in the condition to buy an inferior aircraft to boot.

And the preacherman is doing it again...bla...bla...bla...  old 

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
255 orders from 20 airlines including some very loyal A330 operators.

Who are "very loyal A330" operators? The term "loyal" is irrelevant for most airlines when they purchase aircraft which suit their needs. We have seen many "loyal airlines" switching between manufacturers, so no big deal.

And as I said before: Airbus have changed the A350's design, so it's quite foolish to write it off too fast.



Regards
Udo


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9107 times:

Quoting Wingman (Reply 19):
. Do you honestly believe that America West executives are taking on the 350 with a grin? Y

No, but US Airways surely does.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9087 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Yes they do, it's either that or liquidation.

Wrong. Doug Parker lined up $1.6 billion in financing for this deal! That's $1.1 billion more than was anticipated, they were expecting to do the deal with $500m.

Those who think this deal isn't going to work out haven't been paying any attention. They could have done without the $250m from Airbus easily.

N


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9086 times:

Quoting Wingman (Reply 19):
And with an all-new cross section according to Leahy this is an additional $10B project ontop of the 380 and A400M

 bored  conclusions by some "analists" start to lead their own life..

Quoting Wingman (Reply 19):
I simply don't understand how Boeing can compete with a company that can just pull $10B projects out of its ass

Boeing has giant government deals that EADS never had/has or will have..
http://www.ixarm.com/US-Army-changes-125-billion-dollar
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_27/b3840095.htm
They make more turnover in the military business then commercial. Guess who by far the most important customer is. If you think they are clean deals.. many are in the court now.


25 NYC777 : Quite true. Airbus has taken on the following risks: A380 A350 (to be financed by Europe) A400M (though this is amilitary porject that being funded t
26 KL808 : Totally right. With that amount of money the US/HP airline would have enough cash on hand as the other major players in the market ie, AA, CO, NW etc
27 NYC777 : Ok genius would you lend money to a company that has: poor cashflow, poor customer service (ie the baggage debacle from last Xmas), been through bank
28 Rj111 : NYC777, get over it mate. The 787 has over 200 orders, why cry like a little girl when Airbus gets 20? Almost all of your statements have no source or
29 Post contains images Udo : No. But US executives are more likely to do. It seems the US isn't god's chosen country any more... Have you ever realized EADS are highly profitable
30 NYC777 : What are you, the thread taliban or what. If I want to state my opinion (which as a paying member I have every right to do) then who are you to tell
31 KL808 : Ofcourse its going to be risky, but most investments are risky. Present performance is not indicative of future gain. So it could go either way. And
32 NYC777 : They're not going to start a whole new design, are they. And you for one don't know me so you'll never be able to judge what I will say or not say. I
33 NYC777 : I never said tha NW is getting rid of the A330, only AC. Please re-read my post.[Edited 2005-05-20 18:54:08]
34 LifelinerOne : It's clearly that you don't have the slightest clue on how Airbus works. Airbus is in the business for more than 30 years. During these years they ca
35 Post contains images NYC777 : On the contrary I know perfectly well how Airbus works And as for my opinions, I will continue to state them on this forum as that is what I paid for
36 Art : deleted - posted in error[Edited 2005-05-20 19:21:13]
37 CBERFlyer : Given the state of all of the U.S.-based legacy carriers, I think it is fair to say that there is a good chance any one (or more) of them won't make
38 NYC777 : Another consideration is this... normally when an airline is going to place an order they (the airline) has control over the most important thing...t
39 Astuteman : Quotes from this week's Flight International (apologies if posted elsewhere, or earlier - I've been on holiday for a week..) "EADS posted improved 1s
40 777STL : Well the fact that their launch customer came from a situation where Airbus loaned them money in exchange for launching the 350 should tell you somet
41 Post contains images LifelinerOne : No you don't. Every reply shows that. Concerning the objection... Why aren't you objecting on things like: You know you can't reply to this, because
42 Post contains images Lockheed1011 : Great News! It is a win, win situation. Congratulation Airbus and USAirways!
43 DAYflyer : Then this just proves that Airbus "Bought" the order for A-350. Why loan the money otherwise if not needed?? I can't believe I am about to say that I
44 Thrust : First time in history a U.S. airline has been the launch customer for an Airbus plane. Very unexpected, and that after two big carriers merge together
45 Post contains images Scbriml : Let's see after Paris.
46 Dagell : If you think about it... $250 million loan is nothing compared to the billions in multiple orders Airbus may get from the plane if it gets multiple fi
47 Mariner : So - what you are saying is that GECAS is stupid? That CEO Parker is stupid? That GECAS and US/HP don't strong performance guarantees built into the
48 KL808 : How do you know there are no provisions? Did you read the fine print. Dont think so. All we know is that they ordered the planes and getting a $250 m
49 RJ111 : AA launched the A300-600
50 777STL : 250 million is not a lot of money. DL burnt through 1 billion last year. Which brings me to another point, 1.6 billion is still not a lot of money. T
51 AeroPiggot : You guys seem to have forgotten the Airbus philosophy over the years. Let me restate it here for clarity. Airbus will never allow Boeing to compete in
52 Mariner : Why is this loan is more risky for Airbus than it is for anyone else? Or - if that is too complicated - why is it less risky for GECAS, PAR Investmen
53 CBERFlyer : I believe Frontier was the launch customer for the A318.
54 LH477 : Good for Airbus and Usairways! Does this mean that USairways is nolonger in Ch. 11?
55 Wingman : Sorry guys, I posted my thoughts beore reading the recent news that Leahy is a liar. An all new wider airplane? This guy's ready for a job with Rummy
56 A330323X : If anything, the Airbus loan is less risky. It's a loan, secured by something (probably a 2nd priority claim on the ATSB collateral). The investments
57 Post contains images Mariner : Yes, thank you for pointing that out. I just twigged to something about it - there's been a lot to keep track of. I haven't seen the ins and outs of
58 Propulsion : They are grinning because they are being given the money to stay alive for a few more months and hopefully a lot longer than that. They are NOT grinn
59 Deltaflyertoo : I have one big question that was never answered in all this 350 vs. 787 sqaubble above..... What routes is the 350 going to be used? Whether you are f
60 Post contains images Udo : I can judge what you say, so I don't need to know you. I'm neither involved in the deal nor do I know their books in detail - but the people involved
61 Columba : They wanted to buy more A330s anyway so now they are getting an improved and better version......no reason not be happy.
62 EnviroTO : This whole A350 is inferior thing is getting old... especially since the design phase obviously isn't frozen yet if there have been a multitude of cha
63 Timboflier215 : wow! im new here, and already this A vs B stuff is looking out of control! both make great planes, and both are in a massively competitive environment
64 Avek00 : 1. Airbus is generally more willing to do business with carriers in financial distress than Boeing, so it's no surprise that they are putting cash int
65 Post contains images Mariner : It isn't Airbus doing business with Primaris. cheers mariner
66 Avek00 : ...but it's Airbus who did business with Pan Am, TWA, US Airways, Sabena, and Swissair while all were on or near their deathbeds.
67 Mariner : That's the point - each is the same. Both Airbus and Boeing will deal with the devil if and when it suits them. One could argue that for both Pan Am
68 Avek00 : Yes, but in recent years, it has suited Airbus more than Boeing.
69 BlueSky1976 : 1) Maybe because they needed them sooner than A350s EIS date? 2) AC got the deal from Boeing they couldn't refuse. Besides, they needed a true 767 re
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Mexicana Launch Customer For A350? posted Sat Jan 8 2005 06:22:10 by NAVEGA
Air Europa Launch Customer For A350? posted Tue Dec 21 2004 16:58:11 by Henpol747
CX To Become Launch Customer For 744XQLR posted Tue Sep 3 2002 19:45:52 by Bigo747
Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR posted Wed Oct 11 2006 21:17:33 by Leelaw
Airbus Wants Launch Aid For A350 Revamp posted Wed May 17 2006 08:17:56 by NAV20
SIA Cargo Launch Customer For 777LRF? posted Tue Nov 8 2005 14:28:44 by USAF336TFS
LOT - New Launch Customer For 787? posted Sat Sep 10 2005 00:00:02 by Amirs
FlyBE Launch Customer For ERJ-195 posted Thu Jul 14 2005 20:59:02 by Dogfighter2111
LOT A Possible Customer For A350-800 posted Thu Jun 2 2005 16:43:27 by BlueSky1976
HP & US Air New Route MAP Combined ~ posted Fri May 20 2005 04:45:43 by Squirrel83