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Onur Ban Is To Be Lifted  
User currently offlineBahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1775 posts, RR: 10
Posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3867 times:

Turkish NTV reports that Dutch and Turkish authorities are almost done with their checks in Istanbul and the ban should be lifted by German and Swiss authorities in the matter of hours. (their words)


Earthbound misfit I
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days ago) and read 3739 times:

well, we've seen the reaction from the A.net community and the media, let's see the reaction from the tour companies that sub contract with onur and the tourists.
From my point of view, turkish people will be indifferent about these events for 2 main reason.
1. They aren't cultured in aviation at all when compared to other more well informed countries

and

2. There really isn't much choice, even though there are quite a few LCCs in turkey, they all aim for a different market, so Onur will still have some loyal customers, thanks to their main base tour operator as well



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineBully707 From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1036 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3694 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I am still certain that Onur's problems started with the wet-lease of not so well kept aircraft....

I hope they recover!!!!!

Bully



"That's the good thing about the 707...it can do anything, but read!" Joe Patroni, Airport '70
User currently offlineFraT From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3606 times:

Pilotaydin,
you are completely right. I think that the percentage of Turkish pax will rise.
The recent banning will have an effect on the German tour operators as a lot of pax will ask their travel agent to fly another carrier. That will probably result in less flights to Germany. I hope they will use this reduction in capacity to get rid of these obscure leased A/C. Then they have a chance to rebound. Of course the authorities will continue to watch them very closely. So they really need to keep their act together.


User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3586 times:

i actually hope they don't return to AMS, with theire A300's... only with A321's wich are better maintained etc i mean, if it goes really wrong with the A300 at AMS, the people will point to the government who ''lifted up'' the ban...

User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3585 times:

Should ONUR obtain within the next couple of days their rights to operate flights to Germany,Netherlands and France back - it basically would be the confirmation that the halt was more political than structural.
An airline with comletely rotten maintenance or security operation can't turn arround within two weeks their proceedures to complay with EEC and JAR requirements.So if the inspectors of the aviation authorities of these countries have found enough evidence in Istanbul base that ONUR complies to their standards - the whole matter has been blown out of proportion .
Yes there were evidently shortcommings in the past - but as indicated extensively on this forum,most of the incidents were related to backup aircraft.
Other incidents related to A320 operations ( mainly proceeduruals related to missing papers,assurances and non-updated flight documents ) should not be repeated and I am sure the operational management of ONUR will watch the strict compliance to international safety standards in the future very strictly.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineEmrecan From Turkey, joined Feb 2000, 940 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3540 times:

Bravo to Onur Air !!

in 9 days they solved(!) all the problems...


User currently offlineMH017 From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 31
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3531 times:

Wonder what TK will think of this, as they have scheduled extra flights and bigger capacity on the AMS route lately, even A340's  Wow!

Will they return their business back to OHY ?



don't throw away tomorrow !
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3482 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
it basically would be the confirmation that the halt was more political than structural

Sorry but you have obviously missed some posts. (look Onur-Switzerland)
The issue came to light on A.net only recently but in the records of several civ av authorities this goes back several years.
In NL Onur received twice a "last warning" prior to the last events, in Belgium, very recently, two Onur a/c were showed the red card and could not return (to Belgium) until problems were fixed.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
An airline with comletely rotten maintenance or security operation can't turn arround within two weeks their proceedures to complay with EEC and JAR requirements.So if the inspectors of the aviation authorities of these countries have found enough evidence in Istanbul base that ONUR complies to their standards - the whole matter has been blown out of proportion

It may look blown out of proportion if you read only A.net or the media, nothing heard and then suddenly a ban. The story is very different.

If the ban is lifted, and I hope for them it will be soon, it also means that the Turkish civ av authorities will do their part.
I have not seen this mentioned on A.net, but clearly Tr civ av played (by ommission) a significant role in Onur's problems.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3412 times:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bjorn van der Velpen
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © HansAir


Nice Livery.
Whats their Fleet like.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3355 times:

You can find all details at http://www.onurair.com.tr/eng/filo.asp

User currently offline1stspotter From Netherlands, joined Jun 1999, 518 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3350 times:

@MH017:
THY operated a couple of Airbus A340 flights to Amsterdam instead of the regular A310 because one of the THY A310 Freighters was in maintenance. This A310F normally operates to Maastricht. The A340 was used to transport the cargo which is normally transported by the A310 Freighter.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

24 Aircraft Fleet is quite Large.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2084 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3222 times:

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 6):
Bravo to Onur Air !!

in 9 days they solved(!) all the problems...



Quoting FraT (Reply 3):
The recent banning will have an effect on the German tour operators as a lot of pax will ask their travel agent to fly another carrier. That will probably result in less flights to Germany.

Yes FraT, Onur Air already lost the German market. Even if the ban will be lifted you wouldn`t see much German passengers on Onur Air flights. The last days, the German newspapers and TV stations destroyed every trust by German travelers in this airline.

But perhaps there is a miracle like it happened to Spantax in the 70th. They lost some aircrafts in crashes, but it needed years before they were bankrupt.

Axel



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3192 times:

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 13):
The last days, the German newspapers and TV stations destroyed every trust by German travelers in this airline.

...by journalist that in most cases can't tell the difference between and Airbus A320, a Boeing 737 and a Tupolev....
Why systematically destroy an airline that has had problems but never any fatal or major incident,with the exeption of the Groningen aborted take-off.
I am one of the very few who do maintain the idea about an economic-political background of this affair and are not afraid to defend my opinion!



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5694 posts, RR: 18
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3149 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 14):
Why systematically destroy an airline that has had problems but never any fatal or major incident

So I guess it's better to wait until they have one??? Should (god forbid) something tragic happen, most likely you'd be among the first ones pointing fingers and bitching about the authorities not acting soon enough.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 14):
am one of the very few who do maintain the idea about an economic-political background of this affair

Exactly. Very few.


User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 35
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3139 times:

In view of the inspection data throughout the last years, subsequent warnings from civ av authorities and a clear and unfortunate confirmation of shortcomings, I cannot subscribe to the economico-political background to the ban.

Perhaps you could tell us Beaucaire who would benefit (short and longer term) from the (temporary) ban ?


User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
Should ONUR obtain within the next couple of days their rights to operate flights to Germany,Netherlands and France back - it basically would be the confirmation that the halt was more political than structural.

I think exactly the opposite. I am afraid that they will be released again for political reasons. This would be real bad and makes the whole work of inspectors and authorities just look like foolish.

I honestly do hope, that Onur Air took care about their obvious problem with paper-related objectives and sends the better maintained part of the fleet into Middle Europe until those aircrafts which were subject to complaints have been brought into acceptable technical conditions.


User currently offlineClipperNo1 From Germany, joined May 1999, 672 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3125 times:

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 13):
Even if the ban will be lifted you wouldn`t see much German passengers on Onur Air flights. The last days, the German newspapers and TV stations destroyed every trust by German travelers in this airline.

That's what I keep thinking all the time. Right know the average german is putting the name "Onur Air" in the same ranks as "Birgenair". The name is almost un-marketable right now. There are german carriers like Condor and Aero Flight who are dying to boost their capacity utilization and who will be happy to fill the spot for future flights.

Most german Travellers like to see that "operated by a german carrier" line on their holiday itineraries. Even when the flight is operated by SunExpress, the travel agencies like to print "operated by a Condor subsidiary" on that thing.

Now even those holiday makers looking for "5*-all-inclusive-hotel for €400/week" holidays in Turkey will pay attention to that line.



"I really don't know one plane from the other. To me they are just marginal costs with wings."� Alfred Kahn, 1977
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3115 times:

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 16):
Perhaps you could tell us Beaucaire who would benefit (short and longer term) from the (temporary) ban ?

Destroy the faith of european passengers into turkish carriers could be the obvious strategy.In France ,after the disaster of Sharm El Cheik, Egyptian charter-airlines have a hard time .
Of course would german,dutch or french charter-airlines benefit from the dissapearance of ONUR -only very blue-eyed don't see the potential between Germany and Turkey.

Today - read the article from Reuters- german inspectors found - all of a sudden - nothing wrong in ONUR fleet - how stupid can one be not to understand the name of the game....
http://www.reuters.fr/locales/c_news...ws&localeKey=fr_FR&storyID=8559181

[Edited 2005-05-21 21:59:12]


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3105 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 19):
Destroy the faith of European passengers into Turkish carriers could be the obvious strategy.

As far as I know does Lufthansa hold a major stack in SunExpress. With such a strategies they would also ruin a business that was built during a long time business relation. For the customer it would be then a Turkish Airline as all the others. The objective was never "Turkish companies in general" it was "Onur Air". Furthermore there is quite a possibility that one day Turkey will be a member of the EU. So it really doesn't make any sense to me to blame Turkey in general or to try and bring them out of business or whatever. So I can't believe that this was the strategie.


User currently offlineEmrecan From Turkey, joined Feb 2000, 940 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3089 times:

What changed in Onur Air in 9 days???

Why will they the ban lifted??

Don`t do it.. Stop Onur Air flights.. Onur Air is not safe(!)


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3089 times:

"Après 20 heures de réunions depuis jeudi, la délégation néerlandaise n'a constaté aucune anomalie concrète et rentrera vendredi, précise Onur Air dans un communiqué.

La délégation allemande n'a pas trouvé de preuves d'erreurs ou de négligences lors des inspections de la flotte de 26 avions, poursuit le communiqué."

That means neither the dutch nor the german inspectors found any evidence of bad maintenance on the 26 aircraft of ONUR...
So why all of a sudden ther is no evidence if since three weeks everybody confirms the aircraft are a public danger !

Regarding SunExpress it is true that the airline is partly owned by Lufthansa and Turkish Airlines and -in Germany at least- many travellers associate SunExpress with Lufthansa.So Su Express would - other than Turkish Airlines- be less targeted by any "anti-turkish "propaganda..



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3075 times:

Quoting Bahadir (Thread starter):
Turkish NTV reports that Dutch and Turkish authorities are almost done with their checks in Istanbul and the ban should be lifted by German and Swiss authorities in the matter of hours. (their words)

Well we're 24 hours later and still no sign the ban will be lifted (it looks like all Onur flights of May 22nd are again cancelled).

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 17):
I think exactly the opposite. I am afraid that they will be released again for political reasons. This would be real bad and makes the whole work of inspectors and authorities just look like foolish.

Remember the fact that Mr Erdogan (Prime Minister of Turkey) decided to lobby on behalf of Onur on a recent EU summit (and Mr. Schroder who said that they'll fix the problem soon).


User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2084 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 3072 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 22):
That means neither the dutch nor the german inspectors found any evidence of bad maintenance on the 26 aircraft of ONUR...

The German Spiegel-online says today:

[quote=Während das heimische Luftfahrtbundesamt genauere Angaben zu den Sicherheitsmängeln verweigert, zeigten sich die niederländischen Behörden gegenüber dem Fachblatt offenbar auskunftsfreudiger. Auslöser für die Sperre war dort ein Vorfall am 10. Mai, bei dem ein Airbus A310 von Antalya mit defekter Schubumkehr Richtung Holland startete. Einige Tage zuvor musste ein Onur-Jet am Amsterdamer Flughafen Schiphol kurzfristig umkehren, weil Triebwerksprobleme auftraten.

Die Niederländer werfen der türkischen Airline zudem vor, angemietete Lockheed-Tristar-Jets einer jordanischen Firma mit Sitz in Gibraltar eingesetzt zu haben, die in Sierra Leone und Kirgisien zugelassen wurden und erhebliche Sicherheitsmängel gehabt haben sollen.[/quote]

While the domestic Federal Office of Aviation (The German FAA) refuses more exact data to the safety lack, the Netherlands authorities showed up obviously more information to a newspaper (a industry information service called: "Flugpost"). Reason for the ban was an incident on 10 May, at which an Airbus A310 von Antalya with defective thrustreverser started to Holland. Some days before a Onur jet at the Amsterdamer airport Schiphol had to turn around, because engine problems arose. Also the Dutchmen accused the Turkish airline that they had rented Lockheed Tristar jets of a Jordanian company with seat in Gibraltar which became certified in Sierra Leone and Kirgisia which had substantial lack in safety.

Axel

[Edited 2005-05-21 22:45:33]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
25 ClipperNo1 : Well could it be they just inspected the actual fleet of Onur Air and not those "sketchy" L1011s they contracted over the last months?
26 Beaucaire : ONUR never used any A310...... True that the L-1010 has had bad maintenance but the plane was not from ONUR... Their fault was nervertheless that the
27 Jmc757 : It amazes me that some poeple still belive there is political reasons behind this. Iakabos, throughout this discussion has posted factual information
28 LJ : Unfortunately the rest of the issues did involve their own aircraft.... BTW The A310 is an error of the reporter as it was an A300 (but that's someth
29 Legacy135 : This is true, but they were sending paying passengers, buying a Onur Air ticket on this mysterious planes. Look, I can tell you from my personal expe
30 Beaucaire : I agree on this aspect of the negligence of ONUR - they made a mistake and nobody can deny that!
31 LJ : And it was very very stupid as the touroperators which send their customers onto Onur weren't happy. Corendon (the largest touroperator selling holid
32 Do328jet : I cant` t believe it. Safety comes first and I do hope that the authorities will not change their minds due to any political pressure and give Onur A
33 Iakobos : Talking about faith Beaucaire....the press announcement is from Onur itself and Reuters article is relaying exactly the same announcement. Note: it i
34 OHLHD : Is the ban now lifted or not?
35 LJ : It's not lifted as of 11AM today. Nothing on the IVW website (who have to waive the ban) and nothing in the Dutch media. Moreover all of todays fligh
36 Post contains links LJ : The Dutch CAA (IVW) said that it deosn't expect the ban will be lifted this week. The IVW also mentioned that the recent inspection did confirm what t
37 Iakobos : Update 23 May - 17:00Z Dutch, French, German and Swiss CAA gathered today at IVW's offices in Hoofddorp (a stone throw from Schiphol). The main purpos
38 Post contains images BoogyJay : YAHOOOOOOO ! My first post here. Let's dive in this serious thread: I often fly to Istanbul and before this ban, I've never questioned the safety of O
39 Bennett123 : Beaucaire Perhaps you can remind me of the cause of the B737 crash at Sharm.
40 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Germany, Switzerland, France and The Netherlands will not lift their ban on Onur Air in the next few days. The director of the Dutch authorities said
41 Post contains links Beaucaire : listed is the link of the official accident -report as filed by the egyptian authorities and approved by the french department foe aviation accident
42 Bennett123 : I am having problems with the link. Surely if the Autopilot malfunctions, then the pilot can switch it off.
43 AMSSFO : might be related to the fact that it is a 431 page file.... But you wouldn't find the cause of the accident in the report, anyway. It is just a factu
44 Post contains links Sabena332 : Please continue the discussion here: Onur Air Allowed To Fly Again (by OO-VEG May 24 2005 in Civil Aviation) Patrick
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