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Emirates To Trade Up To New Twins  
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13422 times:

Flight International 05-24-05:

"Emirates is in negotiations with Airbus and Boeing about a complex, multi-billion dollar deal for A350s and 777-200LRs, which would involve trade-in deals for the carriers existing A340-500s and older 777s.

...It could involve a complex contra-deal whereby Airbus, or an agent of the manufacturer, would take Boeing 777-200ERs in part exchange [for up to 50 A350s]. The rapidly expanding Dubai-based carrier is also known to be discussing a similar arrangement with Boeing under which its A340-500s would be exchanged for an order for the -500s ultra-long range rival, the 777-200LR."

[Edited 2005-05-23 11:40:39]

88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13318 times:
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An EK order for both A350s and B772LRs would give both a big boost. Finally EK will trade some aircraft instead of adding more to the fleet

User currently offline9V-SVC From Singapore, joined Oct 2001, 1797 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13273 times:

One question is why is Emirates giving up the A345? The A345 is not meeting up to their expectations ?


Airliners is the wings of my life.
User currently offlineAdria From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13158 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 4):
No its the first sign that the 6 years from now that the 772ER would be reaching the end of its life.... But more importantly it is another sign that Airbus is going to have to buy a market for the A350.

like Boeing did when they bought SQ A340s to sell their 777 Smile


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13101 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 4):
But more importantly it is another sign that Airbus is going to have to buy a market for the A350.

But Boeing bought AC's A340s as part of their 777/787 deal.


User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13049 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 4):
No its the first sign that the 6 years from now that the 772ER would be reaching the end of its life

The 777-200/200ER reaching the end of its life in 2011 after about 16/14 years??? Certainly not.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 12939 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 8):
The 777-200/200ER reaching the end of its life in 2011 after about 16/14 years??? Certainly not.

Reaching the end of its commercial life for a new planes, not the airframe life.

Quoting Glom (Reply 7):
But Boeing bought AC's A340s as part of their 777/787 deal.

Boeing will only buy AC's A340s if they can't get more than a certain price for it if they market it themselves. But that is the only deal where Boeing has offered to buy aircraft to win a 787 deal, and to my knowledge they haven't had to offer serious financial inducements well before the 787 is ready to get any orders for the 787. So far Airbus has managed to get an order of 20 A350s by offering a couple of financially distressed airlines with large Airbus fleets a loan to facilitate a merger, and now we are hearing that they will try and buy out some 777s to find a home for the A350.

Truth be told though, it makes sense for EK to do this. Getting rid of the few mixed 772A/ER frames they have (and perhaps A343s as well) as well as the bulk of the A330 fleet and replacing them with sizable number of A359s is a sensible thing for them to do if they are to succeed in their strategy of becoming a super hub.

[Edited 2005-05-23 13:35:02]


ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 12821 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 9):
Truth be told though, it makes sense for EK to do this. Getting rid of the few mixed 772A/ER frames they have (and perhaps A343s as well) as well as the bulk of the A330 fleet and replacing them with sizable number of A350s is a sensible thing for them to do.

What about EK's nascent A346IGWs? Aren't these likely to be "rationalized" as well if the A345 is on the way out?


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12688 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 10):
What about EK's nascent A346IGWs? Aren't these likely to be "rationalized" as well if the A345 is on the way out?

That's a good question, and I avoided it. Didn't EK get A346s and 773ERs because they were concerned about availability and order slots? With Boeing increasing 777 production they might be able to satisfy all of EKs needs. I guess it would all depend on the performance of the 773ER for EK? Maybe EK should consider asking Airbus to convert its A346 order into orders for the A350 and maybe the A389, and increase the 773ER order and order some 772LRs. Then we would see how desperate Airbus is for the A350 order...

[Edited 2005-05-23 14:05:32]


ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12574 times:

"Is this the first sign the 777 is indeed going to be the prey of the A350? bye bye T7..."

Wow...and it only took Airbus 3 tries since none of A340-series could do the job. And to think that the A350 was not even necessary in the eyes of Airbus just a few months ago.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6870 posts, RR: 63
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12533 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 9):
Truth be told though, it makes sense for EK to do this. Getting rid of the few mixed 772A/ER frames they have (and perhaps A343s as well)

EK surprised a lot of people by leasing the A343s well into the future (till 2009 or something like that) so they probably will be replaced by the A359s. (If they come.)

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 11):
Maybe EK should consider asking Airbus to convert its A346 order into orders for the A350 and maybe the A389

Maybe they already have...  Wink

Meanwhile, reports of the demise of the 777 seem to me greatly exaggerated.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12483 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 13):
Meanwhile, reports of the demise of the 777 seem to me greatly exaggerated.

I don't think it is unreasonable to say that the older 777 models will eventually lose their appeal as new airliners. Whether the A359 is the aircraft that does it or whether Boeing comes up with something remains an open question.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineQantasHeavy From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 379 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12307 times:

SAA would likely be a customer for used EK 345s... wonder if Qantas would try to pick some up from the used market.

The 777 has and will have more staying power than the 330/340 series. It is still the king of the big twins and, truth is Boeing usually exceeds its performance estimates... unlike some other manufacturers.


User currently offlineQantas777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 484 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12290 times:

look, emirates realizes the operational performance of the A345 does not match the Boeing 773ER and the 777LR. God, I love the airbus, but really, the A340 family is no match for the Boeing 777 family, period.

User currently offlineDalecary From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12254 times:

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 3):
Is this the first sign the 777 is indeed going to be the prey of the A350? bye bye T7...

And what about the poor 332/333/343/345 and possibly 346. Prey of the 787/350/772LR/773ER.
The 772LR/773ER now have more combined orders than the 345/346, even though the quads had a 3 year lead. What does this tell you about the 345/346 Sabenapilot?
EK and SQ are on the verge of replacing 345s with 772LRs(EK is mentioned in this week's FI). Along with AC, doesn't leave much demand for a plane that is completely outclassed by the 772LR.
Airbus, after 3 years of 345/346 service with airlines can't achieve reliability to the level promised after 12 months in airline service(98.5% was the promised dispatch rate after 12 months). This has been clearly documented in FI.
However, the 773ER has indeed matched the reliability rates of the 777 family(99.2% dispatch rate) after 12 months of service.
What does that tell you Sabenapilot? Care to discuss?
Get your head out of the sand and get a grip on reality.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 12202 times:

I wonder what ads for the A350 will say?

Perhaps-- "4 engines-4-long-haul-- we were just kidding!"


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 12132 times:

"BTW, it would be interesting to see if Boeing bites, because the market for this kind of ultra-long range planes is very very limited and them taking used A345s to re-market will prove a real pain in the ass for them... they might as well give those 772LR for free then..."

Another Sabenapilot gem. The market for B777LR is so limited that Air France, Air Canada, and Air India just signed up for some the other day are paying actual money.

I think the very, very limited demand applies chiefly to the A345.


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 12055 times:

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 18):
What does this tell you about the 345/346?

It tells you the A340 will be replaced by the A350 as from early next decade on and B is suddenly in urgent unexpected need of something brand new in this upper market segment too now, or the only version of their lucrative T7 they will still be able to sell (by one digit numbers) is the very exotic ultra-long haul 777-200LR.... Have a look at what Emirates is thinking of: replacing their main fleet of basic ageing 772s with new A350s, and the handfull of ultra long haul A345s with newer 772LR.

By 2011, the A340 design will near it's 20 years life span, so it will have done the job for Airbus. Wouldn't it be more interesting to talk about the premature end of the core of the 777 family and the unexpected urgent need for B to announce a 777 successor too now? Can we have your thoughts on how well B can cope with 2 all new designs at once? And about how they are going to secure funding?

[Edited 2005-05-23 16:29:42]

User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11917 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 20):
I think the very, very limited demand applies chiefly to the A345

Now you got me confused. Are you suggesting B will have to go as far as to CREATE a market for their traded-in A345s (as payment for the 772LR) then? rotfl 


User currently offlineTockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 950 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11811 times:

so what if the a350 puts the 777 out to pasture? it won't happen until 2012 - 2015. that's a lot of time for boeing to remain in the dominant position in that market. if anything, i see the a350 killing the a340 between now and then. why buy the second best plane in a market if you're an airbus customer when a replacement is on the way that will have the same cockpit and training guidlines?

furthermore, if the a350 is really a 777-killer, then airbus still does not have a viable competitor for the 787. boeing will be the first to market with a composite fuselage and will have no rival in that size-range for the foreseeable future. this is going to be a huge cashcow for boeing, and put them in a position to create a 737 composite, as well as, eventually, a new 777 with a composite fuselage.

it seems to me that the a350 is hardly a problem for boeing. in fact, it seems to be playing right into boeing's hands.


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11776 times:

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 21):
the only version of their lucrative T7 they will still be able to sell (by one digit numbers) is the very exotic ultra-long haul 777-200LR....

The 773ER?


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11747 times:

I think that any reasonable person would conclude that it is actually Airbus that is scrambling to get its act together after get caught with its pants down. Only a few months ago, the A350 was a A330 with new engines--that is it.

How things have changed. All of a sudden this A350 is going to cannibalize or completely end sales of the much bally-hooed A332/333/340 "family" of airplanes well before their projected expected expiration dates for sure.

Just because of the A340 has showed up in catalogs for near 20 years does not mean it has done its job. Given what looks like the 330/340s premature demise, it is far from actually generating positive economic returns on the resources invested. Making a profit is the airplanes job.

On the other hand, the basic 777 fuselage and systems remain alive in kicking in the 773ER/772LR.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11620 times:

"Now you got me confused. Are you suggesting B will have to go as far as to CREATE a market for their traded-in A345s (as payment for the 772LR) then?"

I think you have been confused about the issues discussed here well before I further added to your state of miscomprehension.

I am suggesting, no, telling you that your assement of "very,very limited" demand for aircraft in the so-called C-market truly seems to apply more to the 345 than the competing 777LR which has been racking up orders very recently. Some orders are intended to replace 345. If Boeing Aircraft Trading picks up some these airplanes, I am sure that some Sheikh or operator of 345s such as Thai will end up with them.


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11439 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 26):
I am telling you that your assessment of "very,very limited" demand for aircraft in the so-called C-market truly seems to apply more to the 345 than the competing 777LR which has been racking up orders very recently.

That's what I meant too, so the only miscomprehension here was yours. I suggest you read again what I have said in reply 3. Maybe you'll see than that was precisely the tone of my reply, namely that B will find itself with very unwanted planes. You see, I am not always shooting at the 777, you don't have to become paranoia when reading a post from me....


User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3477 posts, RR: 67
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11328 times:

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 21):
the only version of their lucrative T7 they will still be able to sell (by one digit numbers) is the very exotic ultra-long haul 777-200LR....

Have you forgotten about the 773ER? The A350 doesn't have the payload-range to compete.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
25 Post contains images Angelairways : Maybe because they can't fit in 3-4-3 seating like they do on T7s I bet the 350 is gonna have to be made wider to accomodate 9 abreast for EK...
26 Zoom1018 : with only one or two inches "wider" than 330/340... WOW!
27 Atltraveler : I am sure Jet will be more than happy to get those 340's off their hands. With the market being so strong for the India-US direct flights there should
28 LY4XELD : And you're still wrong...not to mention your comment makes no sense. I think EK has a higher than average turnover of its fleets. It seemse like ever
29 Post contains links Jacobin777 : not to mention PK's and BR's previous order! hmmm...Boeing is stepping up their production rate...and at the earliest, the Boeing 777 line will last
30 Ikramerica : Why are some people saying the 777 is "dead" because they can only sell 773ER/772LR at this point? Isn't this the way of all large jets in history? Th
31 Post contains images RJ111 : All the A340's came out before their respective 777 rivals. So it was Boeing doing the trying. You are aware that the A330/A340 has sold around 900 c
32 PANAM_DC10 : Couldn't agree more. With so many deliveries in the pipeline they'll be able to market a very young average fleet age, something which SQ seemed to d
33 N60659 : Very interesting thought indeed!!! Additionally, what becomes of EK's order of the 18 A340-600. Could some (or all) of these be converted into A350 o
34 Post contains images DAYflyer : A good point. Besides, Boeing will simply take the new 787 technology to leap past the A-350 with the 797, which will replace the 777 (according to t
35 ITA350 : I think its going to be some time till we see a 777 replacement. It would still be interesting to see airbus come up with competition for the 777-200E
36 Post contains images PANAM_DC10 : And, by your definition, that gives Airbus a "passcard" on trading in 772A/ER? Aircraft manufacturer's have been doing this for quite some time. Not
37 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : 2GOOD2NEED4ENGINES ...funny you should say that, considering that they haven't sold any firm (to built to those specifications) at this point.
38 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : ...I hope he isn't, considering that they haven't sold anywhere near that amount
39 SNATH : Hi Fred, I still like the 2 engines 2 make money version! Tony
40 Gaut : Total A330/340 sales: 905 Total A330/340 deliveries: 642 A332: 285 A333: 239 A342/3: 241 A345: 26 A346: 114 For me, as a pax, the A340 is my favorite
41 WhiteHatter : Once we take all the cheerleading and armchair engineering out of this thread, here are some inportant words which have (as per usual) been ignored by
42 Post contains images Scbriml : Wishful thinking I'm afraid ConcordeBoy! Airbus has sold over 900 A330/340 family.
43 FriendlySkies : I doubt Boeing is too worried about the A350 eating 777-200ER sales. The 777-300ER and 200LR are both far superior to their competitors, so Boeing is
44 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : ...was looking at delivery stats, my mistake
45 AngelAirways : Jet is so desperate for aircraft they are currently looking to aquire 747-400s (one of the lessors they are looking at is United and their desert one
46 N60659 : 9W has always been privately owned. They went public with an IPO earlier this year. -N60659
47 777STL : With all due respect, if you're going to compare two aircraft models against the 777, you should throw the 767 in there as well. That being said, Boe
48 Post contains images AngelAirways : My profound apologies. Of course they just went public. I have had a long day so it is normal for my airy head to do things such as swap the words pr
49 AngelAirways : By the way.. if it were only 1 or 2 inches wider Airbus wouldn't even bother with a new cross section. Either they keep the same A300 x-sec'n or they
50 Post contains images RJ111 : Precisely, but I was actually questioning a rather rash statement that the A330/A340 were not profitable. Tongue was filmly in cheek. Although i forg
51 UAL747-600 : So Airbus has sold slightly over 900 A330/340 units. I wonder where the product line stands in terms of profit to Airbus. I mean, do you think the inv
52 Wingman : Whether they're profitable to Airbus is almost a dead certainty, due in part to the fact that they haven't fully repaid the "loans" back to Germany, F
53 NorCal : Actually this deal doesn't surprise me at all. This is a very prestigious order from a prestigious carrier. They will buy from whichever manufacturer
54 Monteycarlos : Very good question, they are the one airline that hasn't had a gripe about them! Did they? A reasoanble person would say that Airbus simply wanted to
55 PlaneSmart : The three experts of negotiation are the masters Singapore, mavericks Virgin, and quick learners Emirates. If Emirates release anything to the media i
56 Avek00 : It's a no-brainer, really: the 772LR offers superior range, payload ability, and operating costs - the 345 has the edge in acquisition costs, but tha
57 QFA001 : You can!? I'd appreciate seeing those statements, Mont. That is not correct, sir.
58 Intothinair : My guess would be that by 2013-2015 Boeing would have sold another 100 777A/777-200ER and then they'll stretch the 787 to act as a 772 replacement. W
59 ScottB : Can you provide proof of this assertion? The only program whose loans Airbus publicly claims have been fully repaid is the A320. It's kind of shockin
60 Monteycarlos : Go for it... EADS archives and under 'notes to accountants' as its known here. Ok, but can you point me out as to why? Ok, so I get flamed for saying
61 Zvezda : That seems very optimistic to me. I would be surprised if Boeing were to sell any additional A-market B777-200s. I can imagine Boeing selling some B7
62 QFA001 : Sorry, I thought that you meant that we could see Airbus' program receipts and/or repayments to government. FWIW, the profitability of EADS does not
63 Post contains images Iwok : Monty, thanks for the tip. I'll check it out. For the longest time I have been wondering if there was a way to see when/how much of the low cost loan
64 Leelaw : A good source may be the "Rosetta Stone;" perhaps one of Nostradamus's quatrains?
65 Beauing : The only thing shamefully about that episode was the tantrum Airbus threw when they threatened not to support the aircraft taken back in trade by Boe
66 QantasA332 : Not quite. I recall reading that, while the 772LR does has a slight edge over the A345 in terms of maximum range, that extra range is only available
67 Atmx2000 : Without the extra tanks the LR would have a similar range to the A345, while using much less fuel. So I guess the question is whether the lost cargo
68 Monteycarlos : Well I made the statment in reply to other peoples comments, and at least I pointed out a document and also a specific area of that document in which
69 Post contains images Intothinair : First, at the present point the 787-9 is not in the size of the 772. The 787-9 has seats 259 people in a 3 class configuration, while the 772A has 30
70 N79969 : Monteycarlo, I refer you to back to Sabenapilot's earlier remarks to my put comments in context. Also the 330/340 "loans" have to the best of my knowl
71 Columba : "Bigger, Faster, Better, Smoother........."
72 RayChuang : I think EK wants the 777-200LR for one reason: the ability to fly directly from Dubai (DXB) to the US West Coast non-stop on a year-round basis. The g
73 Atmx2000 : Some airlines may choose to equip the 787s with 9 abreast economy seating, which will put the 789 rather close to the 772ER in a 9 abreast economy co
74 Zvezda : I would think that airlines that would fit the B787 9 abreast would fit the B777 10 abreast. (The A350 maxes out at 8 abreast.) Still, it's difficult
75 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I agree, especially SFO and LAX...wouldn't bother me to see a few more 777's whizzing by here @ SFO....
76 Atmx2000 : But that assumes that the demand exists to fill the plane in the 10-abreast configuration on the same route. The trip costs for the 772 with a 10-abr
77 Zoom1018 : I think there is some information on the speed of A350.. it is still SLOWER than Boeing 787!!! Bigger does not automatically mean better!
78 NYC777 : A350 Cruise is 0.82 M 787 Cruise is 0.85 M A350 is faster...than a gooney bird! Smoother...still trying to figure out what that means since the thing
79 Post contains links and images RJ111 : Source? No, didn't think so. The A350 will cruise at Mach 0.84. According to.... http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRHeft04/FRH0411/FR0411a.htm
80 QFA001 : It has all ready been mentioned that the B777-200LR can more or less match the A340-500 range without additional cargo tanks. Furthermore, the A340-5
81 Widebodyphotog : Actually the optional body tanks occupy six LD-3 Positions out of a total of 14 available in the aft hold of 777-200LR. So they use more than 40% of t
82 Monteycarlos : Ok, but what i still don't understand is your persistence with me to correct myself and state my sources, yet those who made the original (and still
83 Iwok : Montey, I have still been digging around at EADS, but I cannot find anything like you mentioned. I could not find the "notes for accountants" section.
84 Monteycarlos : Well the 'notes to accountants' section is in the annual report which I am sure you can find on the EADS website... Its the archives I am having trou
85 Intothinair : I agree with you on that. As mentioned above, the A350-900 is not really in the size market of the 772ER. So, why should Airlines start replacing the
86 Post contains images Keesje : It's going to be fierce battle. Airbus streched the -900 a bit to make it slightly larger then the 777-200 series. Comparison 359-772ER, latest avail
87 Intothinair : I can't imagine Airbus making the A350-900 so big, with relatively weak engines compared to the 772ER, maximum 72,000 pounds of thrust, most airlines
88 N60659 : Every published datasheet I have seen shows the 777-200ER with typical 3-class seating arrangement of 301 seats. Where does the 295 come from? -N6065
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