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If UA Go Bust...what About The Regional Carriers?  
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4297 times:

UA are not far from going bust....however I really hope this doesn't happen.

however if it did occur, what would happen to all those regional carriers operating as United express ( Chautauqua Airlines , Air Wisconsin, Skywest Airlines...etc)
Would they become independent?
Would they go bust as well?
Would they start operating for some other big airline's reginal carrier?
Could they live on their own

Thanks in advance for those who will take their time to answer my questions

Regards

BM

[Edited 2005-05-25 23:07:54]


A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4285 times:

I don't think Air Wisconsin really gives a "flip" anymore if UA goes bust. . .so much for the ORD fallout.


Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4270 times:

Oh for god's sake, enough with these threads! Nothing will happen to the regionals, UA isn't their godsend, they'll just whore themselves out to another airline...how do you think they got a UA contract?

User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

Nice one FriendlySkies. Good to see we have some mature posters here with some actual insight. I wish we had more 16-20 year olds in aviation. Surely we wouldn't be in our big mess if we had more people making comments like this running the airlines!

Whore comments are so constructive and helpful.

Now, to the real question.

Some of the so-called "regional" airlines will have some trouble if United goes under. But I don't think that is going to happen anytime all that soon.

Also, I don't think Air Wisconsin doesn't care about United. It was the lifeblood of AWAC for a LOOOONG time. Lots of AWAC people have relatives who work or worked at United. If United goes down I don't think there will be all that much rejoicing in ATW. Having said that, AWAC now has something of a future, but that's a whole 'nuther story.



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4252 times:

We had in Switzerland the big bankruptcy of venerable Swissair. As you probably know, Swiss International Air Lines has been launched then on the legal base of former Crossair who used to be Swissair's regional partner. Now, after roughly 3 years of Swiss International Air Lines, we can see that the regional fleet reduced in at least the same proposition as the fleet of so called "Large Aircraft". For sure, there are now lots of emotions in and many people say that Crossair was killed by creating Swiss. On the other hand, the regionals are the feeders, so what to feed if the big one has gone.... ?

User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4246 times:

Saab2000:

I'm not saying it's right that the regionals do this, but for what UA was offering contract-wise, I think my assessment was pretty accurate. Also, Air Wisconsin was the only regional that operated only as UAX, but they have found a way out. SkyWest has DL; Trans States has AA, DL, US; Mesa has US, HP; Chautauqua has AA, DL...need I go on?

AWAC DOES NOT care about UA anymore. They found a new contract (although it's not much more stable), and UA is history for them. It's sad how the partnership ended between the two carriers, but ZW saw an opportunity to get out of a potential mess and took it.

And I'm so sick of people using the "16-20" age to imply that someone in that group is intellectually incompetent. Yeah, I'm 18, SO WHAT? Does the fact that you're a few years older than me automatically imply that you're also smarter? I'll have you know that I'm taking math courses that 95% of Americans will never take and attending one of the top engineering schools in the world next year. Yeah, I could have used some other methods of making my point, but the one I did use is effective in getting what I wanted to say across. The fact that you don't approve of it says nothing about my maturity or intelligence.

[Edited 2005-05-25 23:45:41]

User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4235 times:

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
If UA Go Bust...what About The Regional Carriers?

Wouldn't the regionals need to go bye-bye along with UA to correct overcapacity?

Or maybe they could become the next round of Independence Air, inasmuch as airlines are notorious for repeating the same mistakes while expecting a different result (which BTW is how one aviation writer defined insanity).


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4213 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 5):
Trans States has AA, DL, US; Mesa has US, HP

Slight correction: TSA hasn't flown for Delta in years. Mesa however will start flying for Delta later this year. Apart from that, you are correct, there are enough other carriers that will gladly accept another new regional carrier that offers the lowest costs possible, hence why DL signed an agreement with Mesa. it sure as hell wasn't for their quality of service.


User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4192 times:

Well Roots, to actually answer your question, let's take a look at the current UA Express carriers and what else they have under their belts:

Air Wisconsin
--AWAC, if I am not mistaken, has more or less been given the shaft by UA. So if UA goes under, it won't be too big of an impact, as the impact has already been made. AWAC does, however, have a blossoming relationship with US Airways which, should the HP merger become successful, could possibly develop into a strong relationship with the new airline.

SkyWest
--SkyWest has, and has had for a long time, a strong relationship with Delta as a Delta Connection carrier (well before SkyWest flying for UA). SkyWest also has Continental Connection, but that is presently going by the wayside if I'm not mistaken. Either way, SkyWest still has DL and DL isn't going anywhere yet.

Shuttle America
--Shuttle has a bit more to worry about, as UA is the sole carrier they fly for. However, prior to becoming a USX carrier (before UA), I do believe they survived as an independent carrier, so they could always go back to that.

Mesa
--Mesa has nothing to worry about, lol. They have HP, US, and now DL under their belt. Not to mention some of their own independent routes. Mesa will never die. lol.

Chautauqua
--Chautauqua has alot going for them, I think. From what I've heard and read, they're quite the up-and-coming regional carrier. Their routes for AA most likely won't go anywhere, neither will their DL routes. US is a different story depending on how the merger pans out, but I would think that if the combined US/HP opted to trim the fat on their combined regional network, Chautauqua would be rather safe based on what I've heard about their service, but I could be wrong.

Trans States
--TSA is another airline that has plenty of routes left. Again, its AA routes aren't likely to go anywhere either. As far as US, they're much in the same boat as Chautauqua, but it could again go either way.

So there's my two-cents on the issue.

And as far as UA goes, I'm not really 'decided' per se on which way the airline will go. It is very much a big 'if' right now, and that's the realistic way to look at it. Nobody knows for sure just what will happen, and while a going-out-of-business would do the industry itself some good by reducing some of the overcapacity, it would be unfortunate to see so many people lose their jobs. However, UA's continued survival, albeit the optimistic approach, would also very likely prolong the industry's plagues.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineLoggat From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 666 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4178 times:

Case in point... NWA who are at the ready to bring in another partner if and when another legacy goes T.U.


There are 3 types of people in this world, those that can count, and those that can't.
User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4166 times:

FriendlySkies,

Of course Air Wisconsin cares about United. Our contract is not yet finished with them. We will still operate some flights as United Express until as late as next April! Additionally, we will be a ground handling partner of United after that. We have retained a fair amount of our ground handling business with United.

Also, I think an 18 year old can clearly be mature and offer a lot of insight into what happens in the world. I am also pleased that you can at least write in complete sentences - something which is not the case with many here. It is just the the negative comments regarding so-called "regional airlines" "whoring" themselves out is somewhat offensive. You would know why if you worked in the business.

Legacy 135:

You are incorrect to imply that Crossair was "just a feeder". Crossair had its own large route structure from BSL and also had a lot of its own flights from ZRH. Obviously, they did a lot of SR flying too. But to imply that that's all they did is to miss the picture.

It is clear to anyone who is objective that Crossair would not have survived at its previous strength without Swissair. But the way SWISS was formed and the way the ex-Crossair people were treated was an abomination! I know of one of our F/As who was spat upon by SR crews in an elevator in ZRH shortly after the grounding of SR. We were referred to as amateurs in the media by our "brothers" at SR. That was real nice, especially since many of us went to the same flight schools and had the same training!

I wanted SWISS to work, and I am convinced it could have. This issue here is not SR v LX. That is ancient history. But the fact that the discrimination is still going on is really a shame. Crossair was not just some appendage of Swissair. It was its own company which was used to form a new, larger company. Bad attitudes on both sides have thusfar prevented it from becoming what it could become. This is too bad, because Switzerland has so many positive things. But SWISS is just a shadow of the former great things of Swissair and Crossair.

I worked for Crossair and SWISS, so I do sort of know what I am talking about. I have been lucky and got a job in the States. The relationship between the United pilots and our pilots at Air Wisconsin is almost universally positive and an example of how professionals should treat each other, even though the leadership of the companies don't see eye to eye! How it happened in Switzerland was childish and an example of how it should NOT be done!



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11981 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4159 times:

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 3):
Good to see we have some mature posters here with some actual insight.

Maybe a single word was a bit crude, but in general, FriendlySkies' assessment of the independent regional airlines in the United States -- particularly UAX carriers like Mesa, Chatauqua and Trans States -- he was pretty much accurate. They prostitute themselves at the mercy of the majors because they wouldn't exist otherwise, and as such, if they stop getting their $ from UA because it collapses (which I doubt will happen), they'll just go off to find another airline willing to pay them.


User currently offlineLoggat From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 666 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4140 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 8):
Shuttle America
--Shuttle has a bit more to worry about, as SA)">UA is the sole carrier they fly for. However, prior to becoming a USX carrier (before SA)">UA), I do believe they survived as an independent carrier, so they could always go back to that.

Remember, SA has recently been purchased by Wexford (owners of republic and chautauqua). SA will only be affected by the loss of UAL to the extent that CHQ will, as in, having to redeploy their assets elsewhere. The saabs should be going away by the end of this year, and their employees integrated into the CHQ system while retaining the operating certificate of SA for use in getting around AA's 70 seat clause.

I personally don't see UAL liquidating soon (if ever). It appears to me more that they are the ones who are installing some new trends into the legacy airline systems (not necessarily good ones either - at least they still do pillows and blankets).



There are 3 types of people in this world, those that can count, and those that can't.
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 10):
Legacy 135:

You are incorrect to imply that Crossair was "just a feeder". Crossair had its own large route structure from BSL and also had a lot of its own flights from ZRH. Obviously, they did a lot of SR flying too. But to imply that that's all they did is to miss the picture.

SAAB2000 I do apologize very much if I hurted your feelings for what all former Crossair Crewmembers did in Swiss aviation. My post was a very brief one was basically addressed to the to/from ZRH network, LX feeded the SR flights. I never wanted to include Eurocross or the "pure LX flights" not the one flown by SR numbers. I also know about many bad and sad stories that happened against LX crewmembers and I do absolutely disagree with such behavior. It seems to me that many people now working with Swiss did not yet realize that they work in the same company and sit in the same boat. I never wanted to put your work in a bad light.
All what I wanted to state in my post was, that if somebody does feeders, he needs somebody to feed.... I guess if we leave it at that, you probably agree.
So let me send you my very best wishes over to the States and maybe one day Swiss aviation recovers and then you hopefully will enjoy it to ride again the European skies. Blue Skies and Happy Landings!


User currently offlineTedex From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4105 times:

I know for a fact that specific ORD UAX related AWAC positions have been eliminated because there's "no need to please United." Also, front-line staff are being let go for minor infractions and scheduled overtime is being eliminated. Staffing levels are also been reduced at the stations that AWAC will continue to ground-handle for UAX.

User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4094 times:

Quoting Tedex (Reply 14):
I know for a fact that specific ORD UAX related AWAC positions have been eliminated because there's "no need to please United." Also, front-line staff are being let go for minor infractions and scheduled overtime is being eliminated. Staffing levels are also been reduced at the stations that AWAC will continue to ground-handle for UAX.

How are things going otherwise in ORD now? More confused than it was during the transition from DH to ZW? I am just really curious. Hope it isn't like IAD is for UAX.


User currently offlineTedEx From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4079 times:

Flyi - I sent you a private message.

User currently offlineMojo89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 123 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3974 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 5):
Yeah, I'm 18, SO WHAT? Does the fact that you're a few years older than me automatically imply that you're also smarter? I'll have you know that I'm taking math courses that 95% of Americans will never take and attending one of the top engineering schools in the world next year.

No, I don't think that Saab2000 is implying that he is smarter than you, but the fact that he and I work for the company that you are talking about gives us a little more insight into the situation than you have. As a matter of fact we do still care about UA, it would not make good business sense not to. Furthermore, those of us that do this for a living and are very proud of our company don't take well to being referred to as "whores". Good luck in engineering school.



When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3967 times:

Mojo89,

Thanks Bud! Took the words right out of my mouth!

Any news from ZW? Where are we gonna be? PHL, DCA..... ???? What else have you heard?



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineUALGSO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3924 times:

Saab 2000 and Mojo89

I for one am going to miss the professionalism that you and the many other dedicated employees at ZW exhibit everyday. I wish you guys all the luck with the new venture at US. This shakeup in the express carriers at UA has prompted me to seek a new profession outside of aviation after five years at UA. Once again good luck to all ZW and UA employees during this period of transition.

UALGSO


User currently offlineWGW2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3906 times:

It is increasingly evident that there is overcapacity among the regional airlines, and I cannot help but feel that if United collapsed, it would likely result in a game of musical chairs in the regional jet industry, with at least one player, and probably more, squeezed out.

As it is, I'd be highly suprised if all of the regional airlines currently in business are still around at the end of 2007.

-WGW2707


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