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Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?  
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3210 times:

I always looked with admiration at Canadian Airlines as a company with great, dedicated employees and a lot of spirit that just couldn't make it because of economic realities. (Side note: they always kind of reminded me of the 'TWA of Canada,' the airline that most people regarded as having great people and great service, and who most people always rooted for, but who always struggled along.) Anyway, to my question:

While I know this is virtually impossible, I was just wondering -- particularly for our Canadian A.net friends -- if you thought that a resurrected Canadian Airlines would be successful? If the Canadian Airlines brand was brought back, would people -- particularly in western Canada where the original Canadian's roots were -- be willing to switch from AC over to the new CP?


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[Edited 2005-05-27 04:00:43]

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYegmaster From Canada, joined Dec 2004, 1023 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3206 times:

They should resurrect Wardair in all it's glory
Cheers


User currently offlineOlympus69 From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 1737 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3184 times:

They've tried it a couple of times with PanAm. That doesn't seem to work.
What exactly do you mean by 'resurrect' Do you mean split off part of AC. I don't see how that would be possible. If you mean start a new airline using the "Canadian" name, that seems pointless. I doubt if Canada can support another large carrier.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16307 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

Canadian was a very poorly run company with useless management (Rhys-Eaton careened from one strategic plunder right into the next one -- I swear he must have trained Robert Milton), militant unions (that made the AC unions appear cooperative and efficient in comparison), and a fleet mix (ancient F28's, DC-10's on prestige routes) that would have embarassed the Smithsonian Institute. The only nice thing about CP is that it was not AC.

Effectively, Westjet is the "new" Canadian (or more appropriately) the "new" Pacific Western which was a well run company until it bought CP Air.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1665 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3160 times:

Domestically, WS is well-entrenched in the Western Canadian heartland that was CP's strength. CP never did well in the East. Internationally, a new CP would not have its old Asia routes, and it would not hae LHR access. It's hard to see how it possibly could succeed, even in a scaled down fashion. Oh, and AC owns the Canadian Airlines name, brand, trademarks, etc.

User currently onlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1796 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3118 times:

It would be extremely hard for a resurrected Canadian Airlines to succeed in Canada's airline industry today due to a few reasons. For starters, WestJet is almost the same size CP was back in the 90s, representing 30% of the market share in Canada. Western Canadians, who used to be loyal to CP, are now loyal to WJ. Their service is great are their prices are usually lower than AC's.

Air Canada has also expanded quite a bit into CP's former markets, i.e. Asia. Representing just under 60% of the total market share, AC is the dominant carrier in the east and flies almost all key international routes.

There are also smaller airlines CP would have to compete with, such as CanJet(Eastern Canadian based discount airline) and Harmony Airways (Western Canadian based airline flying to holiday destinations).

As you can see, Canada's airline industry right now is pretty healthy. The entry of a new Canadian Airlines would saturate the market. A new Canadian Airlines would only be successful if:
-They fly high-yield routes.
-Have low turn-around times.
-Have low employee-to-plane ratio.
-Keep costs down.
...then maybe they can make money on certain routes.

Anyone starting up a new airline in Canada has to ask themselves this question; where would they fly? A new Canadian Airlines would run into heavy competition almost everywhere.

I feel there is absolutely no doubt that the people of Canada, especially Western Canada, would be happy to see the Proud Wings livery back in Canada's skies...but it takes a lot more than that to keep them up there.


User currently offlineTIMEAIR From Canada, joined May 2005, 436 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3051 times:

I can agree WS has entrenched itself into CP/KI old strongholds, not to mention has taken on alot of former CP/KI staff...so I tend to agree that in essence, Canadian was resurrected even before it was gone, but the Management team didn't realize it until it was too late! The only thing missing is the Int'l routes, but I think over time it will appear...hmm wasn't that a B767 corporate model in WS offices????


You can't get there from here.
User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3026 times:

AC has ownership of all of Canadian's old routes. If it wasn't for the routes that CP brought in the merger that created Canadian, it wouldn't have been half the airline it was. I always preferred Canadian to the point I was Executive Platinum on Canadian but had no status on AC. AC has a fairly firm grasp on all the international routes to and from Canada now and I think that makes a Canadian resurection fairly unlikely. Of course its not all bad... YVR and YYZ are probably bigger connection hubs than they could have been before and perhaps the US/HP deal will act like the asian feed that AA once provided to Canadian in YVR.

User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3003 times:

Quoting Yegmaster (Reply 1):
They should resurrect Wardair in all it's glory

Definitely. The best airline in the world ever....after British Caledonian of course!

What exactly killed Wardair leading to it being taken over and merged with Canadian? Did Wardair make a big mistake going from a first-class charter airline to a scheduled carrier?



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

A resurrected Canadian has been successful - it's called WestJet.

WestJet has essentially taken CP's place in the past couple of years.... strong in the West, not so much in the East (supposedly they're having problems breaking out of the mold of being perceived as a "regional carrier" to eastern customers).

Of course, WS doesn't fly internationally as CP did... and WestJet flies pretty extensive charter operations, which CP should've done (after buying out Max Ward). Financially, though, they're approximately the same size now... WS makes almost as much revenue as CP did when it was at its peak.

Looks like they've learned from some of CP's mistakes. There's also a whole load of ex-CP people working for WS.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2883 times:

One would think there is still room for a traditional, full service carrier in Canada. One with two classes, long haul flights, meals, etc.

AAndrew


User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2873 times:

Quoting BCAL (Reply 8):
What exactly killed Wardair leading to it being taken over and merged with Canadian? Did Wardair make a big mistake going from a first-class charter airline to a scheduled carrier?

Look at all the other carriers who tried that and failed. Closer to home we have Air Europe, Dan-Air and Laker. All moved from charter to scheduled, and for various reasons ended up in the history books.

Seems like it is never an easy move to make.


User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2851 times:

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 10):
One would think there is still room for a traditional, full service carrier in Canada. One with two classes, long haul flights, meals, etc.

Harmony is giving that a shot....



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4405 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2844 times:

As is the case with most countries, Canada's aviation market simply cannot accomodate two major longhaul carriers.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2811 times:

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 13):
As is the case with most countries, Canada's aviation market simply cannot accomodate two major longhaul carriers.

Well, the US manages to support quite a few. Britain has more than one.

The difference is that Canada is, in terms of population, a small to mid-sized country. I mean, we have as many people in the whole of Canada as there are in the state of California.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineRogerThat From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2754 times:

Bring back the goose...


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I flew CP from Toronto to Halifax in first class just a few months before they went under. It was the best in-flight service in this hemisphere.


User currently offlineRicardoFG From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 677 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2698 times:

Quoting BCAL (Reply 8):
What exactly killed Wardair leading to it being taken over and merged with Canadian? Did Wardair make a big mistake going from a first-class charter airline to a scheduled carrier?

YES! lets all start a new airline...CANADAIR!


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4405 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2677 times:

Quoting Goose (Reply 14):
Well, the US manages to support quite a few. Britain has more than one.

For a variety of reasons, the USA (along with Japan and the UK, to a lesser extent) can support 2 or more major long-haul operators. However, most countries simply cannot.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2664 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):
and it would not hae LHR access

...what, other than slot acquisition, would be stopping it?

Quoting Goose (Reply 14):
Well, the US manages to support quite a few.

Um, perhaps because even individual states here have more population than all of Canada?  Yeah sure


User currently offlineCXYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2656 times:

I have very fond memories of CP. My father was a Canadian Plus points member, so I flew Canadian exclusively as a child. I can still remember the first time I saw the ad unveiling their Proud Wings livery. What a fantastic design that was! I think they had a great brand and good service. I liked their choice of name for Empress Class and the Empress Lounges and I really think it's a shame AC didn't capitalise on this for their premium product.

On a somewhat related matter. Last year I read that WS and CX were in talks on having WS become a feeder for CX's Canadian cities but I haven't heard anything of that since. What's the status of those talks or have they broken down?


User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 18):
Um, perhaps because even individual states here have more population than all of Canada?

Uhm, maybe you should have read the very next line of my post which you quoted, that stated exactly that;

Quoting Goose (Reply 14):
The difference is that Canada is, in terms of population, a small to mid-sized country. I mean, we have as many people in the whole of Canada as there are in the state of California.

 Yeah sure ... indeed.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineYegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1729 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2494 times:

I was a platinum Canadian Plus member just before they were taken over by AC...Those were the days....indeed.

Friendliest staff....amazing service....

WS does not replace CP...not a chance....don't compare these crazy mickey mouse flight attendants at WS to CP's most wonderful and professional staff


User currently offlineTIMEAIR From Canada, joined May 2005, 436 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2343 times:

Quoting BCAL (Reply 8):
What exactly killed Wardair leading to it being taken over and merged with Canadian? Did Wardair make a big mistake going from a first-class charter airline to a scheduled carrier?

The Canadian Government killed Wardair !!

Max Ward had a fleet of 747's/ DC-10's AND Airbus A310's, however he did not have equipment to service smaller markets to feed into main hub markets. He purchased 10 MD-80's to initiate domestic point to point service to feed onto his long haul international flights, however due to the Regulatory environment, both CP and AC appealed the government and the government heeded to their request to deny Wardair a domestic OC, thusly quashing his endeavour to provide the Canadian people a far superior product ever imagined in air travel anywhere in the world! If he had waited for de-regulation, I am sure Wardair would now be the designated National carrier for Canada, and not only CP would be out of business, but AC would be close to their demise now, if not already another now-defunct legacy carrier as well, and the likelyhood of Clive Beddoe creating Westjet probably never would have occurred!



You can't get there from here.
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16307 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2312 times:

Quoting TIMEAIR (Reply 22):
The Canadian Government killed Wardair !!

Nonsense. Max Ward killed Wardair. No one else.

Wardair was a marginally-profitable-at-best charter carrier when Max Ward made the strategic error of converting WD into a sked carrier. The 12-strong 313 order killed WD. By 1988, the domestic market was deregulated so WD was free to start any domestic services he wanted.

By 1989, it was clear that WD was headed for bankruptcy and liquidation Anyway, CP foolishly paid about C$200M to purchase WD.

The ONLY value in WD was their slots to LGW which CP picked up. Everything else (the staff, fleet, facilities) were of no value and arguably a burden to CP.

Despite every Canadian having some kind of warped nostalgia for WD, it really was never very profitable. It should have remained as a small niche charter carrier.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2299 times:

PWA bought CP not the other way around...The EPA and Transair came together, then EPA and CP merged to come up with CanadiACA....doesnt look like a resurrection would do them any good now...an excercisim maybe?


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
25 Yyz717 : Not quite. PWA bought Transair around 1980, long before the amalgamation with CP, Nordair & EPA.
26 Post contains images B742 : Please bring back CP! Maybe all of us a.net guys should donate to bring back the airline Has a airline ever been resurrected successfully? Rob!
27 Slawko : You're right I was thinking nordair...not Transair...
28 FLY777UAL : What are Canada's bilateral agreements with other countries? Would these preclude a new entrant from competing against Air Canada internationally (lon
29 Hmmmm... : I wonder what Max did with his 241 million-dollar plunder of Canadi>n. He was quite the businessman. He racks up a 480 million-dollar debt, brings War
30 Post contains images TIMEAIR : ... and why do think Wardair was in such a predicament?? It was called regulatory air routes...controlled by the Canadian Government, of which Max Wa
31 Yyz717 : Max Ward did a poor job of managing his expenses while he grew too quickly. WD would still be here today if Max Ward had done 1 of 2 things: 1. Remai
32 AC7E7 : Let's not go that far... Had Wardair continued into the 1990s and through to today, and if it was a viable alternative carrier, AC, CP and others wou
33 Tango-Bravo : Reply To: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful? Let's see... Whereas, the original Canadi>n (CP) could not turn a profit even in the best of tim
34 CXYYZ : Your answer is far too simplistic. CP suffered because it was burdened with huge debts from the start and a resurrected CP would be exactly that. Res
35 Yyz717 : Chuckle. Poor mgmt alone can kill an airline. "Bad luck" does not happen to well-run airlines -- they have contingencies in place for all macro-econo
36 TIMEAIR : If you ask me, the demise was created when Boeing offered CP B737-300/400 aircraft, at which point it was accepted by CP, however shortly thereafter P
37 TIMEAIR : If you ask me, the demise was created when Boeing offered CP B737-300/400 aircraft, at which point it was accepted by CP, however shortly thereafter P
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