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First A320 Scrapped  
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16307 posts, RR: 56
Posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13349 times:

Aviation Letter reports that the first A320 has been scrapped (excluding any aircraft written off in accidents).

Fleet #028 was delivered new to Cyprus Airways in May 1989 and recently removed from service.

This scrapping seems premature to me, if it truly is based on aircraft age or use.


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
85 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13314 times:

Discussed a few weeks ago, it went to a specialist breaker in Florida.

Aircraft get broken all the time before they might be considered to be life expired. This frame may have been due a D check, and its parts value exceeds the combined cost of the D check and its value plus taxation benefits for the owner. It was also IAE engined.

After all a 757 was broken in the same location recently. Aftermarket parts is a big business.


User currently offlineYUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13273 times:

Hey Neil,

The report didn't state why the aircraft was scrapped? 'cos I have seen a couple of recent reports mentioning that the cargo conversion program of the A320 could not be launched yet as A320s available for conversion are... inexistent.

Strange...



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16307 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13248 times:

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 1):
This frame may have been due a D check, and its parts value exceeds the combined cost of the D check and its value plus taxation benefits for the owner. It was also IAE engined.

Given the potential likelihood that this 320 could have easily seen 10 more years of revenue service, if not even more, it still seems premature to me. 10 years of revenue service will easily cover the amortization of more than 1 D check.

Cyprus operated the 320 on long-ish routes to Northern Europe so the cycles on the 320 should not be unduly high. Perhaps corrosion was a factor.

Nonetheless, it is interesting to see the first 320 scrapped. Meanwhile, the NW D93 fleet soldiers on.  Smile



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13187 times:

There are no A320 aircraft other than that one anywhere in the breakers yards. If it comes up, at the right price, then it's going to be just like a car to part out.

secondhand certified original parts will be snapped up by other operators, just like specialist BMW breakers hunt down and part out those cars at much less than a dealer would charge. It's basic economics.

D checks can cost a lot of money as well, so when you do the sums that aircraft could have been a poor deal for placing with a new operator.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 3):
Nonetheless, it is interesting to see the first 320 scrapped. Meanwhile, the NW D93 fleet soldiers on.

They had plenty of life-extension work and investment, so it's the other side of the coin. CY's beast was writtten off the balance sheets, NW decided to go the other path.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13172 times:

Quite strange, and sad, to see this aircraft scrapped.

5B-DAT was msn28, first flight on Dec.29th 1988, delivered to Cyprus airways on May 19th 1989.

The 24 previous a/c in the production list, are all active with various airlines ...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Balazs Pinter



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16307 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13163 times:

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 2):
Hey Neil,

The report didn't state why the aircraft was scrapped?

No reason given Eric.

The reason can't be cycles, and I doubt it's total hours. I wonder if corrosion (salty sea air at Larnaca) is a factor?



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13157 times:

Time flies!

The decision to part out an airliner is purely a financial analysis - its likely that this airframe had a lot of hours and/or many cycles and was due for heavy maintainance. The parts are probably worth more than the airframe as a whole at this point. Also, the possibility of placing the aircraft with another carrier would be considered (it probably did not look promising) and problems/issues with this particular airframe were taken into account.

Some 733/734/757/767/MD80 aircraft have been parted out, so, while sad, other early build A320s may soon face a similar fate.


User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13101 times:

Sometimes a aircraft might be pre- maturely scrapped because of sort of toxic or hazardous spillage in the cargo compartment such as mercury. Sometimes these items cause serious corrosion or otherwise effects on the airframe which affects its integrity.

User currently offlineJorge1812 From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 3149 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13100 times:

Have a look here. Started a similar thread weeks ago.
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2050032

Bye, Georg.


User currently offlineAerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2736 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13072 times:

I remember this being discussed at some other point after someone spotted the aircraft outside the scrapper's facility.

I think the final conclusion was that the plane had suffered some kind of irrepairable corrosion, or at least the cost was too great in light of the spare parts market.


User currently offlineTrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3240 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12606 times:

As stated in the linked thread, 5B-DAT was sold by CY, which has been in a rough financial state of late. There was no worry about corrosion, cycles etc. with this plane but CY was trying to sell it and the scrappers were the only takers. CY, remember, has recently ditched its Greek subsidiary Hellas Jet so for them to take such drastic actions implies a grave state of affairs.

It is still very sad though, she has gone to aviation heaven...

 Sad

TrintoCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineSkymileman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11105 times:

When I first saw this thread, I was very surprised, but doing the math, I realize that some of the 320's are getting up there in age. Boy does the time go by fast! Seems like just yesterday, the 320 was the "NEW" airplane.

User currently offlineJHSfan From Denmark, joined Apr 2004, 469 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11072 times:

According to the debate "Cyprus A320s to be scrapped? on PPRuNe.org the plane was sold for $11.000.000.

Yours in realtime
JHSfan



Look at me, I´m riding high, I´m the airbornmaster of the sky...
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11047 times:

15 years is about the designed life span for an Airbus, I guess this is just one of the first to go...Recyclable not retainable is the way airbus builds their machines....they are built and sold cheap enough that its more economical to lease/buy a new one then it is to maintain a 15 year old one.


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10892 times:

Quoting Slawko (Reply 16):
15 years is about the designed life span for an Airbus, I guess this is just one of the first to go.

Yeah, that's probably the reason why no A300Bs are used as freighters and immediately fall apart after being hit by a missile...

Quoting Slawko (Reply 16):
.Recyclable not retainable is the way airbus builds their machines...

Can you provide any FACTS which support that rather ridiculous statement?

Quoting Slawko (Reply 16):
.they are built and sold cheap enough that its more economical to lease/buy a new one then it is to maintain a 15 year old one.

Crap. Masses of Airbuses are beyond 15 years and early scrapping will remain an exception. And no, not every Airbus is sold cheaply just because there have been some good deals in the past. Get real.


Regards
Udo

[Edited 2005-05-28 17:07:47]

[Edited 2005-05-28 17:08:39]

[Edited 2005-05-28 17:20:39]

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10703 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Thread starter):
Aviation Letter reports that the first A320 has been scrapped (excluding any aircraft written off in accidents).

 Smile
Thats what I thought too.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4341 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 10479 times:

The main point is that CY needs cash NOW and this lonely IAE-engined aircraft wouldn't be picked up by an airline soon enough, so the scrap/parts option was the cheapest, it is quite expensive to finance the D check and acquisition costs when you don't know yet when exactly you can sell or lease out the aircraft for what amount of money. It might actually have been easier if 10 or 20 IAE-powered A-320s, with similar lay outs and a spare parts package were or came on the market , then a new start up, the freighter converters or a big current A-320 operator would be more likely to pick them up then this lone frame.
Expect the other early A-320s to soldier on for at least 10 more years. I expect Air France, BA and Lufthansa to only start withdrawing their 1980s A-320s after their last 737s are gone first.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 10438 times:

Can you provide any FACTS which support that rather ridiculous statement?

UDO-

I just spent the last 4 months on a project where I was working with mechaics from a major US airline that flies both Boeing and Airbus. EVERYONE there said that Airbus, although a good aircraft are not built to the same standard as Boeing. Where Boeing would use .032 material, Airbus will use .025 material to save weight. Where Boeing would machine are part, Airbus would press it out. Boeing uses Alclad as an anti corrosion material, Airbus does not. Standard repairs in the galley area that are seen on a Boeing at the 15 to 20 year mark are being seen on Airbuses at the 5 year mark. This does not make one any better or worse... just designed for a different market share.

[Edited 2005-05-28 17:38:07]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 10376 times:

Someone I know who deals with aircraft leases has mentioned in the past that CFM56 powered A320 aircraft are actually easier to place with second users than the IAE ones. That would have complicated matters somewhat. Engineering for CFM engines is much more readily available.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 19):
I expect Air France, BA and Lufthansa to only start withdrawing their 1980s A-320s after their last 737s are gone first.

Those BA ones in the G-BUS* series are still going strong, and despite early teething and provisioning problems have been fleet bedrocks. I could only see BA selling them on when the CFM56 has been completely eliminated from the operation, which won't be any time soon.


User currently offlineGearup From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 578 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9753 times:

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 12):
Thank goodness we see some A320 gettin scrapped. This will certainly be the one airliner I won't miss once its retired

I assume that since you made this contribution (although ridiculous) to this thread and this board, that you consider yourself a civil aviation enthusiast. Your post would tend to indicate that you are nothing of the sort. Same holds true of 747727 since he/she agrees with you!!!

GU



I have no memory of this place.
User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1939 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9718 times:

Airplanes have become like computers and VCRs.....When we "think" they become "too used" we just throw them away and buy a new one...
Silly that, but then I have hard time believing that you would see any present day CRJs or Airbuses or even modern Boeings still flying as long as some of the older airlines built back when they were built to last... like 707s DC8s DC9s 727s BAC 111s....etc...

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently offlineKCMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9444 times:

What ever happened to Braniff's A320 fleet? I remember there were 6 of them or so parked at Goodyear. Last time I checked a checlist of what was parked there they were listed as still being there. Parked in 1990 I believe? That would mean theyve been dormant for some 15 years now. Any further details?


Dustoff
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16307 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9405 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 19):
It might actually have been easier if 10 or 20 IAE-powered A-320s, with similar lay outs and a spare parts package were or came on the market , then a new start up, the freighter converters or a big current A-320 operator would be more likely to pick them up then this lone frame.

This makes perfect sense. This lone 320 though was one of 4 of similar vintage with Cyprus. Are the remaining 3 still in service with Cyprus, or somehow able to avoid scrapping?



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9397 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 20):
I just spent the last 4 months on a project where I was working with mechaics from a major US airline that flies both Boeing and Airbus. EVERYONE there said that Airbus, although a good aircraft are not built to the same standard as Boeing. Where Boeing would use .032 material, Airbus will use .025 material to save weight. Where Boeing would machine are part, Airbus would press it out. Boeing uses Alclad as an anti corrosion material, Airbus does not. Standard repairs in the galley area that are seen on a Boeing at the 15 to 20 year mark are being seen on Airbuses at the 5 year mark. This does not make one any better or worse... just designed for a different market share.

So you have come in to this thread, made a completely ridiculous set of assertions which you can't back up in fact or with references, and tried to start A versus B into the bargain.

Sorry, you just failed cheerleading 101.


25 Access-Air : KCMIke, those A320s that Braniff flew for the short time before going TU, went to America West...I belive that they are stillin AWA operations to this
26 Post contains images Ts-ior : Non wingletted A320s of AF and BA should be scrapped first
27 Dutchjet : I think that the Braniff A320 fleet (which was originally part of an order intended for Pan Am) ended up with America West.
28 Post contains links and images EMBQA : What ever happened to Braniff's A320 fleet? Looks like they didn't travel too far and ended up with America West... View Large View MediumPhoto ©
29 Bennett123 : Braniff A320 went into storage in 12/1989 and went to American West Airlines 09/1990. They are now N620AW to N622AW, N624AW and N626AW.
30 Trident2e : Now, how did I know that was posted by an American?
31 EMBQA : Now, how did I know that was posted by an American? .......and how did I know what I said would be taken out of content and the WHOLE statement not qu
32 Dutchjet : I dont agree with this controversial statement. Its simply unfair (and this coming from a Boeing supporter!) - Boeing simply has a longer history tha
33 Post contains images Udo : Certain posters wouldn't be missed either... Everyone? You mean everyone you talked to, right? Actually it's irrelevant what some mechanics of one ai
34 EMBQA : What I find to be the most enlightening part of this is.. by reading the profile of others making statements, I'm the only one that actually has seen
35 Okie : I had a discussion with a Mechanic who worked for an all Boeing fleet just this last week and his opinion was that the Airbus was a disposable aircraf
36 Post contains images MIAMIx707 : I wonder how that's like I passed by OPF last week and 5B-DAT it was still there in one piece.. There has been another Airbus there for a month or so
37 Post contains images Udo : What I find interesting is that some people talk about "experiences" with ONE operator and think they can make a general rule out of it... All-Boeing
38 Post contains images Udo : Incorrect assumption, as usual. Regards Udo
39 ATCT : A man after my own heart. Anywho yea it is common to get airplanes scraped. We got rid of out tail from a wrecked 152 pretty cheap. ATCT
40 EMBQA : What I find interesting is that some people talk about "experiences" with ONE operator and think they can make a general rule out of it... Ok, let me
41 Glidepath73 : And how do you explain the different cases of cracking 757/767 fuselages on a harder landing and the FAA regs. about it? No Airbus plane has regs. so
42 EMBQA : Can you give me a link or an FAR section to these special Boeing hard landing regulations...??? Every single commercial aircraft has a requirements fo
43 AirxLiban : Wow....this is quite amazing, no one else would buy it? No LCCs or charters wanting to add the venerable A320 to their fleet? Or get started with one?
44 PlaneSmart : The finance industry is as keen to fund / lease 10 year old plus B & McD aircraft as it is A. Just like ships and property, condition and maintenance
45 EMBQA : AirxLiban- Getting us back to the heart of this thread and away from the A -v- B debate.... The company that holds the lease would have look at severa
46 Glidepath73 : There was recently a tread about a other wrinkled fuselage from a Canadian Charter airline 767 which landed to hard somewhere in the caribic. In this
47 EMBQA : I saw the same thread and could not find it either.... Let' get back to the heart of this tread.. and I hope I gave a good explanation above in reply
48 LTBEWR : Perhaps another factor is the costs of insurance due to age, heavy MX due, the odd engines, in addition to the others noted above.
49 Monteycarlos : I believe you refer to the A320-100's. You would think they might have seen the scrap first but I guess they found a home somewhere. That might be a
50 EMBQA : I sure hope not since from what I can see JQ's fleet is brand new..... Call me in 6 years.
51 Slawko : You missed my point...I wasnt putting the product down, its simply a different product. Airbus prides themselves on building cheap and reliable aircra
52 AirxLiban : Airbus pride themselves on building cheap aircraft...I think I'm going to have to let them know about that one.
53 Post contains images Udo : In your first comment you mentioned only one airline, now you suddenly throw in more. How many exactly? Only in the US? There are some 150+ operators
54 Monteycarlos : But hang on... you said Airbus planes aren't built to the same standards as Boeing planes and that maintenance persons you have spoken to have confir
55 SXMbyKLM747 : Oh come on...Having you're own opinion about Boeing or Airbus A/C = okay BUT don't come with this crap. There have been more A/C with design-flaws. (
56 Post contains links and images PipoA380 : View Large View MediumPhoto © Stewart Andrew Here it is
57 LTBEWR : Another possible issue here could be the the higher amount of composite materials in major areas of this a/c. It is difficult, probably more expensive
58 NumberTwelve : Sorry to say that EMBQA, but EVERYONE is no source and nothing reliable. In Germany we say: "everybody is responsible means: nobody is." Everybody/Ev
59 EMBQA : Can we get back to the topic of this thread..?? I did..!! I do not agree with your views based on what I have seen, read and been told, but I still re
60 RODOL : Incidentally why have these not been retro-fitted? Presumably the fuel saving vs fitting cost does not make it worthwhile?
61 Monteycarlos : Well yeah, we're already seeing it with 744's to some degree... I am not sure of one thats yet to be scrapped but the many that are undergoing freigh
62 EMBQA : Boeing 747-400's being scrapped..? I knew they where doing -300's, but the -400 is still very much in demand by passanger airlines and still not that
63 Jetfuel : One other thing that seems to be being overlooked in this debate is the calibre of the operator and I am NOT making any direct assumptions about the a
64 MrComet : It is well established (except maybe for Udo who believes in all of Airbus's lost causes) that 737s have a lower maintenance cost than A320s. That spe
65 DeltaGuy : I'm sure Boeing is rejoicing and posting photos of this beast being chopped! Now, wasn't there that America West 320 that overran that ended up being
66 Post contains images Udo : Funny how short-time members think they can judge longtime users by reading (or better: mis-reading) a limited number of posts...well, that's nothing
67 Carpethead : Two 744s have been written-off: 1. A brand-new 744 operated by CI nosing into the waters off Hong Kong. 2. KE 744 bird after a hard landing. Remarkabl
68 Monteycarlos : One reason - QF didn't want it to be counted as a hull loss. Thus their reputation is maintained at the expense of very costly reapairs to that aircr
69 Bennett123 : EMBQA Do the words "repeated rudder reversal" and "Design limits exceeded" ring any bells. Also the A300 first flew in 1972, the A300-600 first flew i
70 MrComet : Some of us have been reading it for years but not posting. Then there is the issue of credit cards here in BiH....not easy to get. Sorry. That is ter
71 Isitsafenow : DELTAGUY...yeah, there was an America West A320 that was written off in August of 92. N635AW, Number 092 in the Airbus line-up. Something about the pa
72 Glidepath73 : Might be true, but that doesn't stop a lot of (low-cost) carriers to swap from the 737 series to the 320 series. (AB for instance) Just the fact that
73 Post contains links and images PipoA380 : Nine are still flying with Air France F-WWDA/B/C, F-GGEE/F/G, F-GGEA/B/C. View Large View MediumPhoto © Patrick Mutzenberg One with BA, G-BUSB V
74 Pihero : Pipo, The exact figures for AF and BA are : AF :13 A320-100 FGFKA/B/D/E/F/G/Q and FGGEA/B/C/E/F/G BA : 5 A320-100 G-BUSB/C/D/E/F Regards
75 Post contains images PipoA380 : Well at least I tried!
76 BigB : I was reading through this post today and I am amazed. Don't fool yourself, you know and I know that sale statistics do not say a damn thing on the co
77 BigB : You have an great point. A lot of these loses also contribute to Boeing not wanting to work with these so called (inferior) low cost carriers. Boeing
78 Post contains images Lightsaber : When more than a few million dollars are on the line, economics will rule the decision. While the later IAE engined examples are a plus, I admit that
79 Maersk737 : But they do work with low cost carriers all over Europe? Cheers Peter
80 Bennett123 : Lightsaber I think that you would have to drill it out. When I get out of my warm safe office, perhaps I will find out.
81 BigB : Ryanair got a sweet, but happened with Easyjet again? Didn't Air Berlin order Airbuses or was it Boeing? I'm not too familar with other LCCs in Europ
82 Post contains images Maersk737 : Yes there is....And a lot of them are going Boeing
83 FDXMECH : I don't agree that airframes have a lifespan as such. Airframes are not ablatable components that simply wear away. Though without care and maintenan
84 WhiteHatter : EZY got a good deal and some remarketing help for some of the 737s which would be retired from their fleet, plus a good training and conversion packa
85 BigB : Thanks for the info. Also, if airlines are buying second 737 classics, Boeing nor Airbus see any benefits because the money is gonna go straight into
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