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First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!  
User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2978 posts, RR: 14
Posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 12489 times:

Flight 290 operated by B6 left BUR 1.5 hrs. late this morning, but is now making a fuel stop at BUF. I know that there was speculation that a fully loaded 320 cannot make it all the way out here to Long Island from BUR. However, I thought that JetBlue caps the flights at 135 from BUR-JFK (no cap on the JFK-BUR portion though). What gives?

Also, will the passengers on this flight be given compensation? I would think a $50 credit would work just fine, but I don't think B6 wants to give those credits out all summer. Should the cap be reduced to 130?

Any comments and speculation is welcome!

JetBluefan1


Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
93 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline737-990 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 365 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12388 times:

Incredible that its making all the way to BUF before it makes a fuel stop. As for compensation if B6 does what all the other airlines out of BUR do then no compensation is coming.


Happiest is a man who has his vocation as a hobby
User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12364 times:

UMM...doesn't the jetstream flow from West to East. They should have a tailwind from BUR to JFK. How is it that they make it westbound without a fuel stop?


"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12350 times:

Range issues are tight with a fully loaded A320 on the transcon routes - occassionally fuel stops will be required depending on loads, winds, and other factors. I do not know if operations out of BUR (as opposed to other LA area airports) make such a difference, but I think that BUR has some runway issues which could prevent JetBlue from topping off the fuel tanks. Fuel stops may happen once in a while, when all of the factors are working against the flight on a specific day, but I do not think that fuel stops will become a regular thing, JetBlue will adjust payloads on the flights and may reduce the number of seats sold (all of which cost money of course) if nonstop operations on BUR-JFK become a regular problem. Fuel stops cost money and upset operations - something that JetBlue wants to avoid.

As for compensating the passengers due to a fuel stop - why? It happens from time to time in normal operations (just like delays and cancellations) and JetBlue got the pax from Burbank to JFK, even if they were a little late in arriving and got a sidetrip to BUF. No compensation is necessary and such action by JetBlue would be extraordinary.


User currently offlineM404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2225 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12346 times:
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Was that flight able to use the optimum runway? Did the wind change after the flight was planned and loaded? Would assume this might be a wakeup call to flight planners AND the sales department to watch loads. It would be interesting to see which department has the most say. Whenever a sales department gets too strong this kind of thing can happen. Was the delay what caused the temp to rise beyond expected TO figures?


Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlineDCAYOW From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 602 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12310 times:

When I had a "technical landing" on B6 JFK-(ABQ)-SAN - I had an e-mail from jetBlue the very next day with a $25 e-voucher to use on a future B6 flight.

I didn't really mind the stop in ABQ - I had never landed there before so I got to see a new airport.

I did think the e-mail with the voucher was a great touch. That is why they are such a good airline.



Retorne ao céu...
User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4383 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12276 times:

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 2):
UMM...doesn't the jetstream flow from West to East. They should have a tailwind from BUR to JFK. How is it that they make it westbound without a fuel stop?

It has nothing to do with range issues, but has everything to do with BUR. The runway length and terrain of the area combine to make it necessary to carry less fuel and passengers. When the Santa Ana winds are blowing, it is worse.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12269 times:

That close to JFK, it sounds more like a diversion than a fuel stop. There are thunderstorms between BUF and JFK, and JFK has them in the forecast. Perhaps they got held airborne...? Wind bust (not as much tailwind as forecast) thus a bigger burn?

Fuel stops usually stop somewhere in the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the intended trip distance, not at the tail end of the flight...


User currently offline737-990 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 365 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12208 times:

OPNLguy - I think your right. The weather back east is going to be a big problem for B6 out of BUR. I bet they're carrying min fuel and not one pound extra for weather problems or ATC delays.


Happiest is a man who has his vocation as a hobby
User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2978 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12178 times:

OPNLguy,

I called into 1.800.JetBlue and they said that it's a fuel stop (the guy checked with his supervisor).

And BTW the weather is just gorgeous here. But according to the radar map on jetblue.com's flight tracker, we should be getting hit with rain within a couple of hours. As if we haven't had enough clouds this past week...

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineComeAndGo From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1041 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12169 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 7):
Fuel stops usually stop somewhere in the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the intended trip distance, not at the tail end of the flight...

Depends on the situation. If you cross a body of water you may have to stop later in the flight. European carriers that fly over the pole from Asia do technical stops in Scandinavia. On a flight to Europe that's at the end. Also SAA from JFK to Johannesburg does an occasional stop just before reaching South Africa in Namibia, Windhoek I believe.


User currently offlineMav75 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 228 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12163 times:

BUR has two runways: 15/33 (9,889 ft.) and 8/26 (5,801 ft.). The airport elevation is 788 ft. Without getting too in depth, the higher the airport is above sea level, the less dense the air becomes. This results in additional thrust required to produce the same amount of lift you would get at lower altitudes. Temperature also plays a large part in air density; the higher the temperature, the less dense the air becomes.

All that having been said, if the winds require a departure on the shorter runway on a hot day, the takeoff weight of the airplane has to be reduced in order to allow a legal (not to mention safe) takeoff.

In order to reduce takeoff weight, you're either going to take a hit with payload (read: passengers and their bags) or fuel. If the weather is good enough, you'll probably cut into your fuel cushion to get everyone on board. Additionally, flights from west to east get a push from the jet stream, depending on where it happens to be on a particular day. This saves time and fuel.

As far as this flight was concerned, it could be that they put on less of a fuel cushion than normal and the jet stream either wasn't as strong as forecast or it was in a location other than forecast. So in this case, the calculated risk of avoiding a fuel stop didn't pay off. Still, all of the passengers got to JFK without getting bumped. It probably only took an extra 20 minutes for the fuel stop.

So should passengers be compensated for this? I don't think so. They weren't inconvenienced all that much. I personally would rather be on a flight that needed to stop for fuel rather than not on it at all. I'm sure those passengers felt the same way.


User currently offlineATCRick From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 772 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12101 times:
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Fuel stops are common mainly in the Summer but alot of them could be avoided should the company people that sell these routes talk to someone who has a clue about operations. Then the feasibilities could be discussed, i.e. build a fuel stop in so the pax would be expecting it and not be upset. However on days when it wasn't required the pax would be very happy. Or, if the company absolutely did not want to do fuel stops then what the flight would have to be capped at to ensure a nonstop flight.


natch!!
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8230 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12086 times:

Quoting Mav75 (Reply 11):
BUR has two runways: 15/33 (9,889 ft.) and 8/26 (5,801 ft.). The airport elevation is 788 ft.

That's the same elevation as Cleveland. I don't get this: 9,800 ft. runway, normal airport elevation... why in the heck are they limited? If you can't get a full A320 off in 9,800 feet something is wrong. Unless the winds were gusting over 25 or something, I don't understand why they wouldn't just opt for the longer runway, anyway. They're taking off, not landing... you can takeoff with a crosswind.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12069 times:

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Thread starter):
Flight 290 operated by B6 left BUR 1.5 hrs. late this morning, but is now making a fuel stop at BUF

Uh Oh.....

Not good for an inaugural flight!


Regards - Kahala777


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12066 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):

That's the same elevation as Cleveland. I don't get this: 9,800 ft. runway, normal airport elevation... why in the heck are they limited?

Obstacles...


User currently offline737-990 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 365 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12033 times:

Mav75 - You just added 3,000 feet to Burbank's runway. Runway 15/33 is 6,889 feet long.


Happiest is a man who has his vocation as a hobby
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12010 times:

Quoting M404 (Reply 4):
Was that flight able to use the optimum runway? Did the wind change after the flight was planned and loaded? Would assume this might be a wakeup call to flight planners AND the sales department to watch loads.

I went back and looked at past METARs, and it looks like they would have been departing off 15, which gives the best weights. (When BUR goes off 33, it gets -UGLY-).

I can assure you on behalf of my counterparts at JetBlue that the "flight planners" (We're called "dispatchers") are far from being asleep. Places like BUR can be challenging, and loads are considered, and adjusted...


User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4384 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 12004 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):
That's the same elevation as Cleveland. I don't get this: 9,800 ft. runway, normal airport elevation... why in the heck are they limited?



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 15):
Obstacles...

To Clarify BUR's longest Runway is 6,899.



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4055 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11995 times:

Quoting DCAYOW (Reply 5):
I didn't really mind the stop in ABQ - I had never landed there before so I got to see a new airport.

Did you get to go inside at all? I'm assuming you just waited in the aircraft. ABQ is a very new, very nice airport. Definitely among my top 5.


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11948 times:

Quoting ATCRick (Reply 12):
Fuel stops are common mainly in the Summer

Actually, they're more common in the WINTER - the jet stream dips further south, intensifying the winds.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2978 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11872 times:

Uh Oh.....

Not good for an inaugural flight!


Eh?? The inaugural flight was on Tuesday. The flight I'm referring to is today's (Friday). BTW, The inaugural flight got in on-time.

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8230 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11858 times:

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 18):
To Clarify BUR's longest Runway is 6,899.

I withdraw my statement.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26426 posts, RR: 76
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11839 times:

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 2):
UMM...doesn't the jetstream flow from West to East. They should have a tailwind from BUR to JFK. How is it that they make it westbound without a fuel stop?

It is not a range issue, range does not really come into affect until you try doing BOS-West Coast. The issue is BUR's length, upslope and heat. Still, a fuel stop in BUF does seem a bit late in the game



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6003 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11794 times:

Taking off on 33, you are going UP hill, which is a reason for the large weight hits we get.

Runway 8 is closed to departures for all aircraft over 12,500 pounds.

As OPNL stated, we are far from asleep. We also do everything in our power to avoid a tech stop.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
25 N1120A : I think the giant mountain in the take off direction adds to that. This is certainly not the fault of the dispatchers, rather a risk that B6 took in
26 Post contains images OPNLguy : Exactly. If we ran BUR-BWI or BUR-ISP, we could have similar problems, and they'd be a given if 33 was in use. I wonder if anyone has ever considered
27 Post contains images N1120A : Actually, off of 15, your 73Ws should not have nearly the issue of B6's A320s. You guys have more range and better performance. The 73H/8 would likel
28 Post contains images OPNLguy : As long as we don't have to fuelstop at the Chevron... (I know it's not there anymore...)
29 Post contains images N1120A : Actually, I put my mom on a WN flight to PHX yesterday (most people probably know why) and actually took a look at the empty field that was the Chevr
30 Goldenshield : Wait. A gas station AND a chinese restuarant? Gag me. :P
31 N1120A : No actually, the restaurant was next door and was removed along with the Chevron after the Southwest Shuffle. Still, you should see New Orleans where
32 Post contains images Sllevin : I'm sure they were trying to make it non-stop, and either failed to meet a release point criterion or got stuck in a long hold. I suspect we'll see a
33 Post contains images Lockheed1011 : That sucks! If I pay for a non-stop flight I want non-stop and no cheap excuses. That is very unprofessional on behalf of B6. They should restrict the
34 Ikramerica : If only they were running a 73G/A319 on the route. Sometimes one model doesn't fit all, I guess.
35 Post contains images N1120A : This is something that happens to all airlines from time to time. It happens on some routes more often, but normally doesn't. Remember, B6 had 3 flig
36 Goldenshield : Lockheed -- I feel that B6 made a wise decision to stop for fuel. Despite the delay that happened to the passengers, the dispatcher and the captain ma
37 Flyboyaz : They could do what WN did and just drive through the fence and stop at the gas station on the way!! hehe...I know that was bad....was that what you gu
38 N1120A : yes
39 Warszawa : Perhaps they should have continued to JFK then? Take their chances? It was an accident, it happens. Carelessness would be marked in an attempt to con
40 OPNLguy : Aircraft performance involves a number of variables, and the majority of the time, the combination of those variables will permit the non-stop operat
41 Mav75 : N766UA, you need to stay in school. You can't opt for the longer runway if the crosswind component exceeds the aircraft's limitations. It's illegal a
42 Lowecur : There has to be more to it than fuel. The weather at BUR was perfect in the morning: 9am 65 degrees SE 9 haze. Heat or wind would play no part in mini
43 Flyboyaz : We had the same problem in TUS with the nonstop to EWR on the B735. Though the problems were mostly on the EWR-TUS segment. It stopped numerous times
44 RamerinianAir : WOW! Looks like this summer will be an interesting one with B6's A320s . . . . It only gets hotter from here!!! SR
45 Meteorologist : While the jet stream does dip farther south in WINTER, today's jet features strong SWerly flow from Southern California straight up into southern New
46 N200WN : I can't believe so many people are making such a big deal about a fuel stop. B6 operates three flights a day and the other two that day didn't require
47 Post contains images OPNLguy : At an airline I -used- to work for, we had to fuelstop a 737-200 TWICE between HOU and JAX. The stops were in MSY and TLH. The reasons? 1/ A -200 "Bas
48 Coronado990 : It looks like it is not so much as to when the two other flights departed BUR but when they arrive JFK, which is later at night or early in the morni
49 N1120A : N766UA had a good point except that he did not look at airnav to pick up the mistake Sounds like a fun day at Air Florida
50 Post contains images OPNLguy : >>>Sounds like a fun day at Air Florida It was a trip... We had so many "pig" aircraft that I thought I was working on a hog farm...
51 Post contains images N1120A : When did WN dump its last -7 powered 732? Come to thing of it, how many versions of the engine did WN have and what was the longest route you ever di
52 Post contains links Ikramerica : I was just a the the braniff pages earlier and saw this: N95SW was the last 732 at WN. http://www.braniffpages.com/bliners/bliners.html January 17, 20
53 Notbluejet : My god.. Jetbluefan1... do you actually work at jetblue??? please people stop spreading stupid rumors and making assumptions. saw it comming? who saw
54 N1120A : I know that, I wanted to know the last -7 powered aircraft
55 FA4B6 : Are you kidding me? It's 0623 EST right now and Im home from just having done BUR-JFK [Flight 296] and we were just fine [and we got in a half an hou
56 Gilesdavies : I don't understand why the A320's need to make an additional fuelling stop on this type of route. US Airways operate their A321 on the routes from PHL
57 OPNLguy : >>>When did WN dump its last -7 powered 732? Come to thing of it, how many versions of the engine did WN have and what was the longest route you ever
58 JetBluefan1 : My god.. Jetbluefan1... do you actually work at jetblue??? please people stop spreading stupid rumors and making assumptions. saw it comming? who saw
59 Incitatus : I don't understand JetBlue plans in Los Angeles. First they picked an airport with no terminal (LGB). Now they picked an airport with no runway (BUR).
60 ExFATboy : B6 is simply trying to avoid the nightmare that is LAX. LAX is overcrowded (I'm not sure if there is any terminal space open even if B6 wanted to fly
61 Crogalski : Sorry to ask a question like this, but what is B6? Also, whith jetblue's newest arrival of Embraer-190's coming in November, do you guys think they'll
62 Goldenshield : That would be SNA. jetBlue. Just run your mouse over the code.
63 Lowecur : B6 is the Jetblue Code, ie DL=Delta, F9=Frontier, FL=AirTran The 190 will max out at around 2200nm for Jetblue and with weather factors and a reserve
64 Cschleic : SNA's runway is even shorter than BUR - 5,700 ft. (plus a 1,000' safety area). But BUR is short. The other Cal airports are much longer...ONT 12,198;
65 Iowaman : Jesus people do you even read the posts? The fuel stops are required every once in a while because of a short runway and a mountain after takeoff. PH
66 Dutchjet : Unscheduled stops happen all of the time - because of operational reasons, weather, air traffic control issues, etc, etc. A couple of weeks ago I flew
67 LGBFltTrainer : Actually, the times when a mountain would factor in (taking off on rwy 33) are rare. Most takeoffs @ BUR are from rwy 15 and have no mountain issues.
68 Ikramerica : It's not hard to understand why they didn't use LAX, and it isn't gate access. B6 used LGB first because they wanted to form a hub, but there isn't en
69 Goldenshield : They could do it, but it would be in vain. The mountains to the east restrict the climbout for faster aircraft, which is why the 12,500 pound limit i
70 Dutchjet : By using the satellite Los Angeles Airports, JetBlue made a good business decision: it allowed JetBlue to enter the important and competitive NYC-Los
71 AADC10 : I am surprised that they already needed a fuel stop, despite capping at 135 passengers and being able to use runway 15. Something must have happened a
72 ChiGB1973 : I did, no one listened. M
73 Ikramerica : Ospry/Harrier type pax planes are the wave of the future. Sure, there will be more accidents, but you won't have to spend those extra 20 minutes in tr
74 Notbluejet : the 190 Embraers would not make it all the way cross country. If anything they will be used for costal flights, central-us... and replace some shortha
75 Post contains images RayChuang : You know, if B6 had been able to secure 737-800 production slots for their fleet we wouldn't be talking about this very issue now. B6 could have fitte
76 Ikramerica : or as I said, more efficiently with the 73G with winglets, at 140 seats. Sort of like what WN flies into there...
77 Ikramerica : Or a 319, just the same.
78 Crogalski : I wonder if they dont like boeing, because it's like the Ford automobiles, a gas guzzler?
79 N1120A : PHL-West Coast is a good deal shorter than JFK-West Coast. Also, all those airports have runways longer than 8000 feet. BUR's main runway is less tha
80 Post contains images Cactus739 : so a plane stopped for gas..... what am I missing here?
81 Airlinerfreak : It must have been a boring day in the news that Wednesday was it?? They had the taking off of the B6 A320 on the News Live.
82 M404 : OPNLguy My point exactely. It's the influences of the Sales folks I was refering to. Hence the sentence "Whenever a sales department gets too strong t
83 Post contains images OPNLguy : >>>My sympathies to your crew as the temps go up. More so to the station folks... The worst deal they get is when the flight pushes at a weight right
84 N1120A : I take it they are forced to refile to LAX right away?
85 Fxra : Interesting customer service ideas you guys have. IN my current employment situation, marketing will ask if we can make a trip non-stop. We'll do the
86 Flyboy7974 : new info, from what i have researched since this topic was started, was that, that B6 flight departed with every intention to go jfk nonstop with its
87 OPNLguy : >>>Interesting customer service ideas you guys have. Pesky typos... Should have been "dumping" (as in removing from the aircraft)... >>>I take it they
88 Post contains images JetBlueAtJFK : I am not saying that it is a great idea but if the weight is too much at BUR, then maybe they can offload some bags and send them to LGB to go to JFK
89 Post contains images OPNLguy : >>>new info, from what i have researched since this topic was started, was that, that B6 flight departed with every intention to go jfk nonstop with i
90 Post contains images Goldenshield : I'm lost for words as how to explain this to our British counterparts in the 'leave the galley behind' thread.
91 Wjcandee : Don't forget my favorite airport, PSP, which has a nice 10,001 foot runway. Oh, how I wish there were a nonstop from somewhere around NYC to that fin
92 FA4B6 : Thank you for clearing this up![Edited 2005-05-30 15:44:30]
93 Post contains images OPNLguy : I do -so- know what you mean...
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