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Hong Kong-India Bilateral Status  
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

Does anyone know where the negotiations are and what are the sticking points?

HKG could be a great scissor hub for one of the Indian airline to connect Multiple points in India to China, Korea, Japan, and USA West coast. As an example, one would not have to fly south from MAA to SIN to connect to LAX/SFO. HKG is more on India-USA path than other choices like, BKK, SIN, and Kuala Lumpur.Additionally, HKG route provides one stop connection to West Coast USA, and saves about 4-6 hours in time, enough to warrant a premium of USD 150 and more.

What is Cathay afraid of? HKG has 250,000 O&D passengers from India, and could add double that for USA connections.

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4391 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2685 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
What is Cathay afraid of?

Competitors with a much lower cost base.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2653 times:

The era of US-India nonstops is just beginning. The B787-8 will open up more US-India city pairs. Why change planes in HK? If one is to change planes anywhere, NRT or ICN are more nearly direct.

User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2653 times:

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 1):
If one is to change planes anywhere, NRT or ICN are more nearly direct.

True, but the O&D traffic from India to ICN/NRT is miniscule compared to HKG, and scissor hub is not possible unless there is some O&D traffic to fill planes.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
The era of US-India nonstops is just beginning. The B787-8 will open up more US-India city pairs

The 787 will come into picture about 2009 for AI. 772LR will bring about non-stops on BOM/DEL USA sectors first(possibly in 2007), and then expect 787s to connect MAA/BLR to USA non-stop.


User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2046 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2574 times:

The first round of negotiations did not culminate into anything. Next round is expected.
rgds
VT-ASJ



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineCx346 From Greenland, joined Apr 2003, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2494 times:

actually the obstacle in the current negotiations, which I have some insight in, is not Hong Kong or Cathay, it's the opening of Indian destinations to direct flights. India is playing tit-for-tat, and so is China. Cathay has very little say in this.

User currently offlineCX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6610 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2381 times:

Cathay would absolutely love to have more rights to fly to India. We could do the AND OLD: Hong Kong - Kai Tak International (HKG / VHHH) (closed), China - Hong Kong">HKG-BKK-BOM-DXB flight daily with no problems, AND do a non-stop flight to BOM as well as increasing DEL, but the Indian government is not having any of it. I guess with Air India only flying a few A310s to AND OLD: Hong Kong - Kai Tak International (HKG / VHHH) (closed), China - Hong Kong">HKG, they know that if the route rights were increased, CX would immediately do well in increasing their market share...something I am sure the indian government does not want!

User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 6):
with Air India only flying a few A310s to Hong Kong

Air India is increasing Hong Kong services to 19 weekly movements this summer (7x DEL, 5x BKK/BOM, 4x ICN, 3x KIX).


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2323 times:

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 6):
they know that if the route rights were increased, CX would immediately do well in increasing their market share...something I am sure the Indian government does not want!

I think that may be true in the short run, but Air India and especially Jet would more than match Cathay in the long run. Cathay can not compete against Jet with its much lower cost, and IMO, much better service. Cathay is concerned about 5th freedom rights from HKG to USA west coast for Indian carriers that come with any expansion of frequency between India-HKG.


User currently offlineCX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6610 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2209 times:

Well, as someone else mentionned, the sticking point is the Indian Government who keep delaying and delaying the talks which are scheduled for a new date then simply dropped in the weeks leading up to it.

I've never flown Jet Airways, so I cannot comment, but I cannot believe that CX would be the too concerned as a major part of their traffic is Indian passengers flying to HKG to connect with the US flights.

As for giving Indian airlines transpacific routes, I am sure that if CX got more Indian cities and maybe some BOM/DEL to Europe flights, they would be happy.


User currently offlineSnehnath From India, joined Apr 2005, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2183 times:

I'm pretty sure that there is more to this than meets the eye than just the Indian Govt delaying talks. The Ministry of Aviation has signed liberal bilateral agreements with atleast 6 different countries in the last 3 months.

There are similarities between Singapore and Hong Kong in the sense that both the country/independent territory are city states and cannot offer more than multiple frequencies to one airport. Why is it that SQ flies more and to different locations to India than CX does? HKG is one of the very few airports outside of India that has an AI Maharajah's Club if I recall correctly.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2170 times:

There is going to be more trade between China and India by 2010 than between India and all of Europe. India-China traffic will see many nonstop flights between BOM/DEL and Beijing/Shanghai, but the secondary cities like Guangzhou can be connected through HKG, and southern Indian cities like MAA/BLR/HYD can be connected to all of China through HKG. This is where Cathay has an advantage over Indian carriers.

It is a shame that HKG with a much better geographic location than SIN, KL, and BKK is not a big player for India/USA west coast market. USA west coast has about 35% of Indian population in USA(about 500,00 people).

[Edited 2005-05-30 04:29:26]

User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2142 times:

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 9):
the sticking point is the Indian Government who keep delaying and delaying the talks

With all due respect, the current Indian MoCA under Praful Patel and Ajay Prasad are holding bilateral talks and signing MoUs pretty much every week with different countries. The Chinese bureaucrats running the talks for Hong Kong though are an altogether different ballgame.

Why is it that India has concluded liberalized agreements or MoUs with virtually every country it has dealt with over the past 12 months (including mainland China) with the exception of Hong Kong? Perhaps its not the Indians who are the problem....


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4391 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2106 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 11):
This is where Cathay has an advantage over Indian carriers.

...and AI will have an advantage with premium travelers by using regional 787s to directly link cities like CAN with the Indian metros instead of forcing pax to endure unnecessary connections.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2046 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 13):
and AI will have an advantage with premium travelers by using regional 787s to directly link cities like CAN with the Indian metros instead of forcing pax to endure unnecessary connections.

regional 787s!! I thought they were global. Anyways B787 are meant for flights like BLR-IAH, or maybe MAA-DFW (esp for TEX ) etc. Places like CAN can be covered by A310, AI doesn't have to wait for B787 to start such routes.
rgds
VT-ASJ

[Edited 2005-05-30 05:22:33]


ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineMrNiji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2063 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 11):
There is going to be more trade between China and India by 2010 than between India and all of Europe. India-China traffic will see many nonstop flights between BOM/DEL and Beijing/Shanghai, but the secondary cities like Guangzhou can be connected through HKG, and southern Indian cities like MAA/BLR/HYD can be connected to all of China through HKG. This is where Cathay has an advantage over Indian carriers.

And probably these flights will be operated by numerous chinese airlines as well as 9W, Air Deccan etc as AI does not seem to get their act together (OK, not AI but the Government of India in regard to order a/c and to give AI the required autonomy, be it under the auspices of the state of as private carrier)


User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3237 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2024 times:

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 12):
the current Indian MoCA under Praful Patel and Ajay Prasad are holding bilateral talks and signing MoUs pretty much every week with different countries

Not to derail this thread - but I wish there was some way we could applaud this bunch at the MoCA. They're rapidly undoing years of apathy and dust and s**t in the Indian aviation scenario, and I for one would like to thank them and wish them the very best!



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2010 times:

Quoting Nimish (Reply 16):
but I wish there was some way we could applaud this bunch at the MoCA. They're rapidly undoing years of apathy and dust and s**t in the Indian aviation scenario, and I for one would like to thank them and wish them the very best!

I heartily second that. Praful Patel may be partial towards Jet, but overall he has done a good job. I hope he will reconsider the five year rule for the international sector.


User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2891 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1951 times:

I do feel that is necessary for a non-stop flight from BOM-HKG with convinient connections to YYR/LAX/SFO.

Altough i presume it may be a profitable route, but why does CX operate HKG-BKK-BOM-DXB, that too with an aircraft like a 773 which can easily perform any of those cities from HKG non-stop and without payload restrictions


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1948 times:

Quoting Nimish (Reply 16):
I wish there was some way we could applaud this bunch at the MoCA

I won't quite go that far, but I will admit again that their activities on the issue of liberalising air services internationally have been pleasantly positive.

Quoting Snehnath (Reply 10):
I'm pretty sure that there is more to this than meets the eye than just the Indian Govt delaying talks.

Of course there is, but why bother with the facts when it is so much more fashionable to bash India as being "protectionist".


User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1946 times:

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 18):
I do feel that is necessary for a non-stop flight from BOM-HKG

I thought AI was going to launch BOM-HKG nonstop (with 310), or was it BKK?


User currently offlineShawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1895 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 11):
It is a shame that HKG with a much better geographic location than SIN, KL, and BKK is not a big player for India/USA west coast market

I think it is HK's location which is the problem. India hasn't liberalized because HK would be a very competitive hub for pax India-US West coast. SIN is a bit out of the way (so not as big of an issue in the long run). I think the real sticking point is that HK wants too much in return for allowing India through rights to the US and Canada. But what HK needs to realize is that most of the pax CX is going for are connecting pax to the US. India should be allowed to take the pax there as well (especially since the stop is needed for Indian carriers). CX's BOM - DXB is 100% for BOM-DXB traffic and CX serves Dubai nonstop from HKG.

But with AI increasing service to HKG, I think India-HK is pretty well covered for now. CX needs the increased frequencies much more than India does. India should only increase its bilaterals with China or HKG when one gives them through rights to the US/Canada.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1868 times:

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 21):
India should only increase its bilaterals with China or HKG when one gives them through rights to the US/Canada.

I see your point. Wait for AI and Jet to acquire enough aircrafts, insist on expanded 5th freedom from HKG, and then only sign a new bilateral.


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