RJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4136 posts, RR: 26 Posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4736 times:
One of the big companies based in Basel, Switzerland has just started a project with the goal to attract an airline to fly between BSL and EWR. If no airline is starting this route until autumn this year, this company will buy an A-319 to set up a daily company shuttle between the two cities.
It is clear that Continental is the target. It is the only airline that has connections in EWR, also they have the best equipment for this route (757/767).
At the moment the US staff of this company has a contract with Continental, everyone who goes to BSL is using Continental to ZRH and then takes the train to BSL (while the Swiss based staff fly on LH, BA, AF etc. out of BSL). So there are a few options:
-CO will keep ZRH, does not add BSL. They will lose a good amount of business passengers because the company is setting up its own flights.
-CO skips ZRH in favour of BSL. CO keeps above mentioned passengers, also they would easily fill the eco seats (today almost all passengers from BSL to USA fly from ZRH, this would change of course with that flight).
-CO keeps ZRH, adds BSL. Difficult to say if it could work.
-CO keeps ZRH, reroutes the GVA flight via BSL. Would upset the GVA customers because of the additional stop in BSL. Also a 767 would be too small. Could work with a 777 though
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4707 times:
It would make economical sense to have CO drop ZUR in favour of Basle.
LH will convert ZUR anyway into another STAR - HUB with more interconti-flights. Most of the high-yield passengers to New York come anyway from Basle's phamaceutical community and I don't see why a direct flight to EWR would not be viable.
The A319 coprorate jet approach ( like Daimer Benz from Stuttgart ) is less viable, since to few capacity to allow a good mix of Y and C class passengers.
Ahlfors From Canada, joined Oct 2000, 1347 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4704 times:
I dare say Swiss might jump in and use one of Privateair's planes. Not sure if CO has enough transatlantic 757s available right away to add a Basel flight - if they do, they might consider it.
They're competing with Swiss on the NYC-GVA UN Shuttle, so moving that to BSL (or stopping in BSL) would mean they would lose high paying/frequent GVA customers. Moving the ZRH flight would also not be smart, as again they're competing with Swiss, and would lose those customers as ZRH is quite well connected.
Some French or German airline could also start the route, seeing as Basle is trinational.
If Zurich traffic declines because CO launches EWR-BSL they can always swith EWR-ZRH to a 757, they used to fly to Glasglow with a 767-400. When they launched Edinburgh they went with the 757 to both GLA and EDI.
YukonTrader From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4654 times:
correct, SWR started serving the route with a dedicated A310 in C/Y configuration (HB-IPN), later upgraded the service to a A332. Note that the noon-time flight ex Basel was paralleled by a ZRH-EWR service leaving ZRH in the evening. As the two cities are only 80 km / 50 miles from each other, with four trains an hour providing frequent and convenient links in either direction, they can be considered competing for the same market in terms of local passengers.
Possibly the same multinational firm now pressing for a direct flight was already the driving force behind the SR flight from BSL to EWR. When SR stopped the service, the local press suggested the company did not provide the number of high-yield C-class passengers that SR had hoped for. That's inofficial and the press, but there might be a point in there.
From my own observations, with regards to Y-class, the BSL-EWR flight often served as "overflow" for local passenger Switzerland <-> NYC, namely when the ZRH-JFK, ZRH-EWR and the GVA-JFK flights were filled with passengers connecting either side.
Quoting STT757 (Reply 4): If Zurich traffic declines because CO launches EWR-BSL they can always swith EWR-ZRH to a 757, they used to fly to Glasglow with a 767-400. When they launched Edinburgh they went with the 757 to both GLA and EDI.
Well, actually CO does fly the B767-200 into ZRH, thus the difference in size isn't that impressive: CO's B767-200 seat C25Y149, as compared to their B757 (ET) seating C16Y156.
CO could use the 762s currently flying the ZRH/GVA routes for other routes - say the proposed IAH-EZE flight or the proposed EWR-Moscow flight, both of which will require the 762.
CO is studying converting its entire 757-200 fleet to international configuration, CO is also looking at putting 24 BF seats into the 757-200 (16 seats as existing in front of the midcabin galley and 8 seats behind the galley, elininating 3 or 4 rows of coach), and the 757 winglet program is underway. CO has big plans in using the 752s accross the Atlantic, although many a.net members object to longhaul 757 service, passengers dont seem to mind, pax prefer direct flights, and the 757 is a very effecient way to move 150-170 pax accross the Atlantic.
A contract that would keep the EWR-BSL flight rather filled most of the time is something CO would be very attracted to - the EWR-DUS flight was flown for years simply because CO had a contact that kept most of the BF seats filled on a daily basis. When the contract was cancelled, the route was also eventually dropped.
This could happen if CO gets the discussed contract.
RJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4136 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4579 times:
Thanks for the comments so far.
As far as I know almost noone from BSL is using the BBJ service from ZRH. Needless to say that the relationship between some companies and LX is not the best. In the recent years, SWISS got several offers from the local companies to start services on BSL-EWR but they were simply blocking everything (they just took 100 million CHF from one of the companies and stopped almost all services to/from BSL). But this is a different topic. What I want to say: LX is obviously not ready or not capable to offer the right product.
As for the SR flight from BSL to EWR a few years ago: The local companies filled business class every day. The problem was more that SR did not want to sell the eco seats from BSL. Like mentioned before, the flight was in direct competition with the ZRH flights. So, most travel agencies continued to book Basel people on the ZRH flights and some SR staff in the US did not even know about the existence of that flight. Also, the flight was mainly started because Swiss World Airways wanted to start the same route (GVA-BSL-EWR). Maybe the A-330 was too big, SR did not have connections in EWR. CO does have that, so they can easily fill a 757 or even 767.
I agree with Ahlfors that a GVA-BSL-EWR routing would hurt CO's position in GVA.
BTW, can a 757 fly fully loaded between EWR and BSL and EWR and ZRH?
AviationMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4545 times:
"BTW, can a 757 fly fully loaded between EWR and BSL and EWR and ZRH?"
It's been done in the past . CO has substituted the daily ZRH-EWR flight with a B752, when the B762 was not available. Since their B752s are getting winglets, the probabitlity is even higher that they could operate one of the flights a year round basis (plus maybe even without any weight penalties).
RJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4136 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4528 times:
Cheers for that info AviationMaster. I begin to believe that CO can be succesfull if they operate to BSL AND to ZRH. They could maybe even gain more customers if they offer a morning flight from BSL and an afternoon flight from ZRH (people living between BSL and ZRH basically dont care which airport to use, so they will have a better choice).
I think the mentioned company will make an offer to CO in the next few weeks where CO cannot resist. It is not only BSL to EWR traffic, the company also has huge facilities in the Boston area. All those people could travel via EWR to BOS then. This company alone has probably 15-20 pax (probably even more) in business to each destination (EWR and BOS) every day. Not included all other companies that need to visit the HQ in BSL every day and all other normal traffic between BSL and USA.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 17449 posts, RR: 49
Reply 14, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4500 times:
Quoting YukonTrader (Reply 5): Well, actually CO does fly the B767-200 into ZRH, thus the difference in size isn't that impressive: CO's B767-200 seat C25Y149, as compared to their B757 (ET) seating C16Y156.
While the number of seats on CO's 757-200s and 767-200s are nearly identical, the operating costs of CO's 757s are much less than their 767-200s thus allowing profitable operations on many routes.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4464 times:
Quoting GodBless (Reply 11):
Is it just me, or was THAT contract cancellation just coincidently right after 9/11?
The contract was cancelled in the earlier part of 2001 - at that point, the EWR-DUS route was downgraded from a 767 (after being flown for years by a DC10) to a 752. After 9/11, CO cancelled the DUS route altogether as CO needed the 752s elsewhere in connection with the quick phase out of the DC10 fleet. Even if 9/11 and the downturn in traffic that happened thereafter did not happen, its likely that CO would have cancelled the DUS route anyway per some very credible sources and information. The route was just no longer working and without the contract that kept the BF cabin filled, the route was not making money. Its a shame, Its hard to believe that a major industrial city like DUS cannot support a daily nonstop connection to the US.
Rojo From Spain, joined Sep 2000, 2514 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4441 times:
Quoting RJ100 (Reply 13): I think the mentioned company will make an offer to CO in the next few weeks where CO cannot resist. It is not only BSL to EWR traffic, the company also has huge facilities in the Boston area. All those people could travel via EWR to BOS then. This company alone has probably 15-20 pax (probably even more) in business to each destination (EWR and BOS) every day. Not included all other companies that need to visit the HQ in BSL every day and all other normal traffic between BSL and USA.
I guess I know which company is the one interested, if I am correct, the other big pharma company in BSL could very well benefit, since they generate a good amount of premium traffic between BSL and New Jersey (where they have a huge facility) and people's flight preferences were split (some flying BSL-LHR-EWR/JFK and some others flying BSL-ZRH-EWR/JFK first segment by train). Additionally, the airline flying this route could well generate some demand for the economy cabin, since BSL is now a U2 hub and I know plenty of people (American, Mexicans, Canadians, etc) who just want to get to any centrally located place in Europe (to make it kind of a base), with very good and cheap connections (low fare flights). After all, having too much premium traffic in a flight allows revenue management to open more cheap economy seats...
RJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4136 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4171 times:
Quoting Rojo (Reply 16): Additionally, the airline flying this route could well generate some demand for the economy cabin, since BSL is now a U2 hub and I know plenty of people (American, Mexicans, Canadians, etc) who just want to get to any centrally located place in Europe (to make it kind of a base), with very good and cheap connections (low fare flights).
Very interesting point Rojo. I wonder how much additional traffic this could generate.
Quoting YukonTrader (Reply 5): CO's B767-200 seat C25Y149, as compared to their B757 (ET) seating C16Y156.
Is there the possibility to change seating in the 757/767 quickly? 16 or 25 C seats are definitely not enough on that route. Let's assume that this company has 15 passengers to EWR every day and 15 to Boston (they usually have even more to New York). Not to forget all the passengers they have to other destinations in the US, Canada and Latin America. And this is only ONE company. There are many others as well as 4.6 million private people in a one hour circle around the airport.
If I read these figures then there is no doubt for me that this route would make sense.
BA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11161 posts, RR: 57
Reply 20, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4136 times:
I think Continental should just sign a code-share agreement with SBB on the rail line to Basel from Zurich airport.
The train ride is now down to I believe just 56 minutes.
Zurich and Basel are very close to each other that I think it would just make more sense for CO to focus on expanding Zurich and launching a code-share with SBB to Basel and perhaps other nearby Swiss destinations such as Winterthur, St. Gallen, Luzern, etc.
Does anyone know if the ICN is operating the Zurich - Basel line now?
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
HT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6526 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4103 times:
Although this question came up earlier, I´d like to highlight it again:
To my calculations EWR to BSL should be approx. 3900 miles (its 3926 miles to ZRH) and according to A.net a/c data base this is exactly the maximum range for a B752 ...
However, some factors have to be taken into consideration when it comes to operating a 752 on that long route:
+ Performance will improve with "Blended Winglets", but they are not in use yet.
- Operating on the edge of range, strong headwinds in (northern hemispehere´s) winter might require a technical stop on westbound flights. This will be annoying to premium paying pax as it will result in a delay of approx. 1.5 h (for approach, taxi, refuel with pax on board, taxi, climb-out) and probably some onward connections might be missed ...
- The B752 has not much underfloor cargo capacity: No extra revenue available (this is also true for the 762).
o I second RJ100 that neither 16 or 25 C (BF) seats on that particular route will be enough - so CO would have to make a specially arranged a/c available to that route with more C (BF) seats, but trying to operate a daily transatlantic flight with only one (1) a/c available to operate this route is somewhat risky. Even Privatair operates those "All Businessclass" flights for LH only 6x p/w, as the 7th day is strictly for mx. CO would either have to make available a second B752 with identical number of C seats, or would have to use a bigger equipment in order to not to downgrade any C-Class pax to Y-seating.
Overall, I think BSL - EWR would make sense, but only if the product is right: If a reconfigured 752 can make the run without problems year round, and can provide enough C seats, it would be the first choice. If not, a reconfigured 762 would be second best. 764 and 772 I would rule out, as these could not be filled in Y.
One other point came to my mind:
How much will this company pay for a Businessclass trip ?
If I privately purchase a Businessclass roundtrip on LH min. 60 days in advance, I will pay 2000 Euros (= ca. 2500 USD) from Germany to BOS, JFK, EWR and MIA (albeit with some restrictions, but that seat is sold).
The company I work for has discount agreements with several carriers: One fare I can quote is "Germany to ATL on AF" @ approx. 2100 Euros (fully flexible and refundable and incl. feeding flight to CDG).
So if that company in Basle blocks (or purchases) all 15 C seats on a 752 day by day, they probably will pay even less per seat.
What I´m trying to say: With only 15 C seats available and sold every day at discounted rates, the revenue in C Class will be not so good at all ! CO will have to make a revenue from selling its Y seats also !
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
RJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4136 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4036 times:
@BA: A codeshare with SBB would not make sense. If CO does not come here the company will set up their own company shuttle and CO will lose a good amount of passengers. And they are very serious about that. In a few months their own terminal will be finished in BSL. They already have two business jets based here, two more and maybe the Airbus A-319 will follow as soon as the terminal opens.
BTW, I think there are now ICN trains between Basel and Geneva but I think not on the Basel to Zurich trains. Basel to Zurich airport is always a double decker train, the trains to Zurich HB are double deckers, normal SBB fast trains or German ICE trains.
@HT: Some very interesting thoughts. As for the business class ticket prices. I know that this company has a special deal with Lufthansa at the moment for the Swiss based staff so yes, they get discounts. On the other side the same company is paying 1500 Euros for intra European flights without thinking twice about that. I think they just want to get this direct link and basically dont care how much they pay for that. Not to forget that paying full fares at CO is probably still cheaper than operating an own daily A-319 shuttle.
YukonTrader From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3994 times:
Quoting BA (Reply 20): The train ride is now down to I believe just 56 minutes.
that's the current figure for Basel - Bern, running every 30 minutes over a new short-cut opened in 12/2004.
I commute by train 1x-2x a week between Zurich and Basel, so here's the current situation:
Basel - Zurich downtown is 51 minutes when taking the non-stop service operating hourly. As RJ100 states, this run is frequently the final leg of an ICE train coming in from Germany, unfortunately quite often running with delays in the 15-30 minutes range. There are two more express trains Basel - Zurich downtown every hour, but with four stops en route, and a total travelling time of 65-70 minutes.
The direct service from Basel to Zurich Airport runs also on an hourly basis, but in the current schedule with 6 or 7 stops en route. Total travelling time has thus surged to ca. 75 minutes...
No ICN's active nor planned on any service between Basel and Zurich, they run on the longer East-West routes ex Geneva and Lausanne.
(For the record: Depending on traffic, the commute by car would take inbetween 60 and 90 minutes.)
A code share with the railways (SBB) might not make that much sense. Services are already frequent. So if the company in question would consider it a viable alternative I assume it could easily - like other Swiss companies - buy rail passes for its employees travelling to ZRH frequently. In the end, passes might be even cheaper than having to buy individual flight coupons in a code share deal. It seems that this company wishes an alternative to a commute to ZRH airport and the - roughly - two additional hours travellers have to allow for.
Would love to see a CO 757 at BSL regularily...
: There's nothing to add to Lukas' statement. Very well said The company I mentioned is currently concentrating most of their activities in Basel (world
: This is a US point of view. Here in Switzerland everybody uses the trains. Even the members of parliament, some ministers or CEOs of big companies. T
: 764 = 35J/200Y 762 = 25J/149Y 752 = 16J/156Y Of course, the 767s can take more cargo. If CO does open a Basle route, it will be with the 757-200, CO'
: Correct ZRH but I think he wanted to say that people who pay a certain amount of money to travel from EWR to BSL want to land in BSL and dont want to
: Thanks for the information Dutchjet, I appreciate it. BTW, do you know if there is a flight between Rotterdam and the US? I thought someone wanted to
: Ok, I agree. I only wanted to say that train riding in Switzerland is not only for people who can not afford a car. Actually everybody uses them ofte
: Is it possible to travel by train without having to buy a ticket just for the train ride, when travelling on a SWISS booked ticket? Christian
: @ZRH: A BBJ or AC would be nice as well. But I hope for an airline which also offers economy seats so that everyone can benefit from that. It would be
: When CO was operating a wide body (DC-10-30) there was an enormous cargo demand...when the flight downgraded to a narrow body all cargo revenue dried
: So the B752 would be the worst choice, but CO has no other langhaul a/c available (i.e. not assigned to routes yet) - and that CO downgrades another
: business wise when dealing with marginal passenger revenues, cargo and mail can easily make a flight profitable...as long as the market has such poten
: Actually, there is a cargo market ex Basel as it offers pretty good freight facilities, open capacities, and good landside connections to CH, F and D.
: Lukas is right, cargo is pretty strong in BSL. At the moment it seems that MASKargo and Korean Air Cargo are adding more flights. As far as I know the
: I work for another large Basel-headquartered company with its US-HQ in New Jersey. We do not use CO for any flying right now and rely on EWR-ZRH on LX
: There are no flights between Rotterdam and the US. CO has expressed interest to start the route with a 752, but they couldn't get any slots.
: Good discussion... Some points here: BSL looks to be the ideal CO market to Newark. -Monopoly route (think BHX,BRS,BFS,OSL). -High yield business mark
: @Joost: Thanks for the information. @N77014: DL to JFK would be an option, although I doubt it will happen. Does DL have connections in JFK? PrivatAir
: Hmmm, a P and J only CO 752, that I would love to see, but really,really have a hard time buying it. It would be odd that the only CO P cabin would be
: Not really. These customers want to get to New Jersey, and going JFK-New Jersey is probably about as bad as Basle-ZRH, so not much of an improvement.
: only demonstrates your lack of knowledge re: USA. in cities with train or express bus service, Park-n-Ride is very common. NYC, BOS, DC, Chicago, SFO
: Sure. But I think it won't help you much because everything is in German. It is a small forum about BSL airport. www.eapforum.ch As for travelling to
: I wonder if these companies in question here do have a policy to "distribute" people on different aircraft ...? The company I work for, employed such
: Is the Swiss flight out of Zurich to ORD also already booked out in business?
: @HT: Yes, they have this policy. My dad's group always splits on LH, BA and AF. @ZRH: I dont know. But they want to fly from BSL anyway so LX is no op
: I don't really understand. An hour train ride to Zurich airport is much more convenient than go BSl airport and take a flight to FRA or LHR an change
: I never had problems connecting in FRA or LHR. I dont find these airports horrible at all. But this is a personal opinion. Also LHR has the big advan
: Do you have any hope, that this attitude might change now that LH is on its way to take over LX ? Please remind me: I know, that ZRH has its own trai
: Actually I really hope for better connections to BSL. This would be good for Swiss aviation and also for Zurich airport. When a train station is buil
: No. LH is a good company in my opinion and I like to fly with them. They are also very succesful in BSL. But they are specialising on their hubs in F
: CO might need to do a special 752 with 48/78 configuration, used on this flight only, daily. It would need to be a winglet equipped jet that just had
: This sounds like a great idea Ikramerica! And 48 business/78 economy would be excellent for this route. Regards, RJ100
: tnx to ZRH & RJ100 for updating me on "railway to BSL". Btw, if a train will run from downtown Basle to BSL, what will be its national status ? Will t
: Hi HT Funny thing is that the railway to the airport already exists! It is the line from Basel to Paris which passes about 200 meters away from the ai
: @RJ100: once again: tnx for your invaluable info. One last question though: These S-Bahn trains cross the border between Switzerland and France (or Ge
: I don't know about Basel, but the passport checks in Geneva are spotty at best at most borders. Buses generally don't even stop at the border (though
: Actually the last at least hundred times I past the Swiss/German border (by car or train) I had never to show any piece of identity. I never past it
: I can only agree with Ahlfors and ZRH. There are not many passport controls in the regional trains. There are much stricter controls in the trains com
: It seems the bast way to go. No airline is going to expense significant startup costs merely for one corporate customer, who may end up going elsewhe
: That´s a good thing to hear (err. read) ... If they use a A319CJ or similar, couldn´t they use a secondary airport in the U.S. thus eliminating pos
: Teterboro is NYC's main FBO airport, however the NIMBYs keep blocking efforts to allow BBJs and similarly sized aircraft from landing there. The larg
: Their top management is currently flying into Morristown, New Jersey with one of the Bombardier Global Express. Not sure if they can handle an A-319.
: Yea, I flew LTN-BSL on U2 to get where I needed to go in Germany a few weeks ago, after flying into LHR. International service to BSL would be great!