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German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?  
User currently onlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3836 posts, RR: 51
Posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4342 times:

I've got a question about using the German Rail&Fly service.
Maybe some of our German members can help with this one!

Some fares from / to Germany offer a so called Rail&Fly service, which allows you to take any train to the airport on the day of your travel (+/- 1). Normally, when you are issued paper tickets for your itinerary, the two Rail&Fly portions will be included in your ticket booklet as a seperate ticket each, which the conductor on the train will stamp.

I have recently bought a Flight from FRA to MEX and return, on AA. The offer includes Rail&Fly.

This is on ETIX, however, so all I have is a printout from the travel agency. They told me that there's no problem with that, the conductor will stamp the printed page.

Isn't this a potential source for fraud, allowing people to print a fake itinerary on their home computer in order to ride the train for free? How do they check it on the train? Do they call the airline? (I don't think so!)
Will I be in trouble in the train because I only have the etix print out? Should I request a paper ticket from my travel agency?

Here's how my itinerary looks like in the printout:

02.08.2005 RAILWAY GERMANY - FRANKFURT 2A OPEN Y
02.08.2005 FRANKFURT - DALLAS AA 71 M
and so on.
(with another RAILWAY line in the end)


All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4337 times:

Quoting Birdwatching (Thread starter):
This is on ETIX, however, so all I have is a printout from the travel agency. They told me that there's no problem with that, the conductor will stamp the printed page.

Definitely no Etix/PAF/TOD possible with Rail&Fly! And the conductor needs an original "flight coupon".

Quoting Birdwatching (Thread starter):
Isn't this a potential source for fraud, allowing people to print a fake itinerary on their home computer in order to ride the train for free? How do they check it on the train? Do they call the airline? (I don't think so!)
Will I be in trouble in the train because I only have the etix print out? Should I request a paper ticket from my travel agency?

German conductors have on board units but the DB system is not same as CRS's from airlines, so conductors can't check the Record Locators, etc. Also there are only 3 German airports with ETIX machines, which are Frankfurt Airport long distance station, cologne main station, stuttgart main station.

2A system is very simple: paper ticket, just enter train without luggage restrictions, deboard train at the airport and fly.
And yes, you will get trouble in the trains with itinerary only. Conductor may ring up DB product management and ask what to do. They will (of course) reply : charge him, we don't get money from AA without flight coupon.

[Edited 2005-05-29 16:08:00]


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User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4313 times:

I'll just confirm what NumberTwelve said: issuing Rail & Fly tickets on electronic tickets is, currently, technically impossible.

If you have an ETIX, you do not have Rail & Fly.

There is one, and only one, exception, and that's (again, as NumberTwelve has mentioned) if you've got LH flight numbers operated by 2A on routes like STR-FRA (actually ZWS-FRA), CGN-FRA (QKL-FRA) or DUS-FRA (QDU-FRA) - although I'm not absolutely sure about DUS...

But if you've got an AA eTicket, then - with 100% certainty - I can tell you that you do not have Rail & Fly on your ticket. The agency might have booked it, but in no way was the ticket issued including Rail & Fly.

And, yes, I can be 100% certain about that, because this is one of the things I deal with dozens of times during every single working day.

Trust me - and NumberTwelve - the conductor will absolutely not accept the itinerary printout.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4307 times:

Just to add to that... there is, of course, the option of getting a separate ticket for Rail & Fly (not possible through DB, but through certain ticket issuing companies) - those certainly can also be used in connection with an electronic ticket; but without a paper ticket at least for the Rail & Fly part, you'll be using the train without a ticket.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4298 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 2):
There is one, and only one, exception, and that's (again, as NumberTwelve has mentioned) if you've got LH flight numbers operated by 2A on routes like STR-FRA (actually ZWS-FRA), CGN-FRA (QKL-FRA) or DUS-FRA (QDU-FRA) - although I'm not absolutely sure about DUS...

LH's STR FRA // CGN FRA offers are no Rail&Fly. It's AIRail.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 3):
Just to add to that... there is, of course, the option of getting a separate ticket for Rail & Fly (not possible through DB, but through certain ticket issuing companies) - those certainly can also be used in connection with an electronic ticket; but without a paper ticket at least for the Rail & Fly part, you'll be using the train without a ticket.

Rail&Fly is Airline-only offer, nothing to do with Deutsche Bahn, so it's important what Leskova said: airline has to issue the Rail&Fly voucher. Contact AA in Neu Isenburg and they can issue Rail&Fly voucher free of charge, just writing a "conjunction remark" in the conjunction field. AA is paying whole DB fare, so they of course want to know for what they pay (feeder for your MEX flights).
You also can buy the train ticket or get a Fahrpreisnacherhebung of Deutsche Bahn and contact AA in Neu Isenburg IMMEDIATELY. They can contact Deutsche Bahn for not charging. But this is -in my opinion- worst possibility.



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User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4290 times:

Quoting Birdwatching (Thread starter):
They told me that there's no problem with that, the conductor will stamp the printed page.

Tell your travel agent many greetings from #12, he/she is totally uninformed. They give wrong information , customer is travelling and at the end the "bad" carrier is guilty. For what do (some) airlines and tour operators still pay comission? For desinformation? Sorry, had to say/write that.

Leskova, are you airliner - or travel agent? Maybe we know each other...

[Edited 2005-05-29 16:32:34]


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User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4283 times:

Actually, what I'd do is go back to whomever sold you the ticket (including Rail & Fly) and ask them to clarify - and let them confirm to you, in writing, that Rail & Fly is included in your ticket and that they'll pay the cost should you get into trouble on the train... perhaps they'll reconsider at that point.

I know that the AA fares that the company I work for offers always include Rail & Fly (if the transatlantic flight begins in FRA), but - again - only when issued as paper ticket and including coupons for the R&F segments.

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 4):
LH's STR FRA // CGN FRA offers are no Rail&Fly. It's AIRail.

You are, of course, correct - it is AIRail.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4270 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 6):
and let them confirm to you, in writing, that Rail & Fly is included in your ticket and that they'll pay the cost should you get into trouble on the train... perhaps they'll reconsider at that point.

I also guess, Leskova, that the info the travel agency gave to Birdwatching, was just said totally without brain. It's not just adding a stamp and write "Rail&Fly included". But travel agent will think about the (possible) problem he/she will get.

Adding an itenerary to a flight ticket - interesting, maybe travel agent next time says, that customer just has to show a postcard from the destination he was. Very interesting "ticket".



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User currently onlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3836 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

OK, guys, I am SO dumb. I just scanned my itinerary, to post it here, and then I wanted to mark the word ETIX in Photo Impact, and I couldn't find it! Then I want to put the itinerary back into the pouch, and there are my paper tickets!

I guess I'm so used to fly on etix now that I thought this was an etix too. Turns out it isn't, maybe for exactly that reason.

But thanks for your interesting input!

And excuse me for wasting your time!  Smile




All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4247 times:

Aaaaaaaaaah, STA travel, what do you expect from them. llllollll
sorry, Leskova, stupid comment.  Wink

And no problem, Birdwatching, we had great time, talking bad about travel agents and talking about Rail&Fly which is definitely great alternative for flight feeder within Germany (other countries dont have it unfortunatelly), its very unique German product.



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User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4241 times:

Say... directly under the word "FLIGHT COUPON" - does it say *CJ/A... there? If yes, then the guy who issued the ticket sits directly behind me at work (yes, I work at STA and even though the ticket came out of the printer at the office where you were, the issuing was done from here in Frankfurt)...  Wink

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 9):
Aaaaaaaaaah, STA travel, what do you expect from them. llllollll
sorry, Leskova, stupid comment.

You are forgiven...  Wink



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently onlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3836 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4236 times:

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 9):
(other countries dont have it unfortunatelly)

Isn't there a similar system on Amtrak Northeast Corridor, on flights out of Washington, New York or Boston? I remember once looking at an Icelandair itinerary that Orbitz gave me, which went New York Grand Central - Boston on train and then on plane.



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently onlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3836 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4231 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 10):
Say... directly under the word "FLIGHT COUPON" - does it say *CJ/A... there?

Well, it says CJ / AJJ! Does that mean you issued that ticket to me... Here in Freiburg?

Want to come over, auf ein Kühles Bier?

(I hope Johann allows me this much non-english writing in his forum!)



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4220 times:

Birdwatching et al.

thanks for the laugh! Hillarious, especially when you said that you are used to flying on etix so often that you did not realize this tb a paperticket  bigthumbsup  ! - Have a wonderful flight, and an even better Rail journey  Wink


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4216 times:

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 9):
which is definitely great alternative for flight feeder within Germany (other countries dont have it unfortunatelly), its very unique German product.

Although KLM abolished this a couple of years for pax withing The Netherlands (too expensive) it does still exist for feeder traffic between AMS and Antwerp and Rotterdam. Moreover in a couple years time (probably 2007) the same will apply for pax originating in Dusseldorf and Brussels. In addition, there are a few individual airlines doing someting equal. However, the problem is that in this isn't as wellknown as the German Rail&Fly.


User currently onlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3836 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4210 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 13):
especially when you said that you are used to flying on etix so often that you did not realize this tb a paperticket

Yeah, I just realized, whithout this thread I would have gone to the airport without the tickets... maybe I would have convinced the conductor on the train, OK, but then at check-in!
Birdwatching no va a Mexico!  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4210 times:

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 11):
Isn't there a similar system on Amtrak Northeast Corridor

You can't compare, Birdwatching. Rail&Fly http://www.bahn.de/bahnflug (english version: http://www.bahn.de/trainflight is unique all over the world. No routes are published, ticket only shows "Railway Germany" for every railway station within Germany. No difference if 30 km to the airport or 600 km - it's a flat fare where the airlines (mostly) pay a part or the whole costs for the train ride.
Amtrak, French Railway, Swedish Rail, Norwegian Rail, Swiss Railway always have a special route and it has to be defined before, travel agents and customers need sort of geographical knowledge. But not for Rail&Fly. Very simple wording: a ticket from your house door to the airport.

In my opinion it's not compareable with other train feeder. Ok, there is a "Rail&Fly Amsterdam" which is for departures from Amsterdam, but DB is involved in this product too (only from German railway stations).
In Germany we are always critizising the German railway system - not flexible, not in time, etc. But "not flexible" is definitely a joke. Only in the Ostfriesland Islands you can get a plane with train tickets - never saw it on other flights. DB is practicing it: flight coupon for train ride.

LJ: "Although KLM abolished this a couple of years for pax withing The Netherlands (too expensive) it does still exist for feeder traffic between AMS and Antwerp and Rotterdam. "
Also here the destinations are defined in advance - but this isn't with Rail&Fly. You can use any of the 6000 railway stations in Germany.

[Edited 2005-05-29 17:22:38]


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User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7653 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4199 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 14):
Moreover in a couple years time (probably 2007) the same will apply for pax originating in Dusseldorf

Please tell me that's not true. I'm a very loyal KL customer and love them to death, but if they stick me on a train...I'll be p*ssed off.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4195 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 17):
Please tell me that's not true. I'm a very loyal KL customer and love them to death, but if they stick me on a train...I'll be p*ssed off.

Calm down, DC8 , it's definitely stupid to have a domestic flight within the Netherlands - and also in airlines' crs's there is an info that transportation is with Dutch Railway( as it is with codeshare connections).

Have a look onto the map and compare your country to Germany and Netherlands. Düsseldorf is close to Dutch boarder.

[Edited 2005-05-29 17:25:14]

[Edited 2005-05-29 17:25:57]


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User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7653 posts, RR: 35
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4178 times:

Number 12, I've lived in Germany for the last several years, and I still fly to DUS at least twice a year, almost all the time through AMS with KL. I understand the economics behind it since where I lived I could have driven my car to AMS and been there quicker then if I flew from DUS. But, what can I say, I like to fly.


A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4165 times:

ACDC8, and you still have the choice to fly. The CRS's make you more informed, they inform you about the railroad trip. You have possibility to select.
And at the moment Amsterdam Schiphol has no direct trains to Germany, that means, Codeshare isn't possible yet.



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User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7653 posts, RR: 35
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4158 times:

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 20):
And at the moment Amsterdam Schiphol has no direct trains to Germany, that means, Codeshare isn't possible yet.

I know this. As LJ said in his post, it could be possible as of 2007.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineAhlfors From Canada, joined Oct 2000, 1347 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4145 times:

So how does this work if the station has no direct service to the airport? Can you take several trains if needed to get to the airport?

User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4140 times:

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 22):
So how does this work if the station has no direct service to the airport? Can you take several trains if needed to get to the airport?

Hi, Ahlfors, you mean, if the airport doesn't have an own train station or what, if your station has no direct link to the airport?

If the airport hasn't direct train station (which is very seldom in Germany), DB has contract with bus shuttle or tram shuttle services. These (bus/tram) shuttles are included in Rail&Fly.
If your hometown station has no direct link to the airport and you have to change the train, you can change the train. The 1st conductor lifts the Railway Germany coupon and makes a stamp on the passenger receipt. The conductor from 2nd and/or 3rd train (depends how often you have to change trains) can see the stamp and knows that the coupon has been lifted , means: the customer is allowed to travel. Very simple system.



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User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7653 posts, RR: 35
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4131 times:

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 22):
So how does this work if the station has no direct service to the airport? Can you take several trains if needed to get to the airport?

Here's an example I've used a few times.
I would take a bus from Rhede to Bocholt, switch to the train going to Wesel, then switch trains again which takes you to DUS. You just show the bus driver or train conductor your ticket, and you're set.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
25 NumberTwelve : ACDC8, you are not allowed to travel in local trains within one "Verkehrsverbund" (transport and tariff association), but very difficult to explain. W
26 ACDC8 : Ahlfors asked a simple question, I gave him a simple example. Do you have a problem with that? I am very well aware of the rules and policies regardi
27 Post contains images NumberTwelve : lol, wow, DC8 - as I wrote before: calm down   And as I wrote: you can see it on DB homepage - published price means: Rail&Fly is allowed, no publis
28 Leskova : Well, my colleague did, the one who's initials are CJ - if it said FL on your ticket, then it would have been me. But, yes, what happens is the offic
29 ACDC8 : The bus to Bocholt is not operated by DB, so you might not see it on their homepage. But the nice thing about Germany, is that a lot of the transport
30 NumberTwelve : The DB homepage also shows the (non DB) bus, so that isn't the problem. And this co operation is called "Verkehrsverbund". But definitely the bus dri
31 ACDC8 : Here's the cool thing. Different Verkehrsverbunds connect with one another! As you mentioned, you can not use the Rail&Fly in the same Verkehrsverbun
32 Post contains images Leskova : Incidentally, that's not quite correct: there are some "Verkehrsverbünde" that do, in fact, accept Rail & Fly tickets, namely... Verkehrsverbund Ber
33 NumberTwelve : Frank, they accept Rail&Fly in S-Bahn when there is also another long distance train part (ein/ausbrechender verkehr). When you talk about tour opera
34 Post contains images Airsicknessbag : But in practice, you could always use R&F even within a local Verkehrsverbund (on DB) - because it's impossible to prove you did not start your journe
35 NumberTwelve : the Verkehrsverbünde rent the DB trains , so they are angry, not DB. DB could be happy but its against contract between the Verbünde and DB and com
36 Post contains images Airsicknessbag : Asked a conductor - went from Mannheim to FRA, which normally costs 10 EUR. I was like "so great business for you, TUI makes you a gift of 20 EUR", h
37 NumberTwelve : Airsicknessbag, sorry, I can't / am not allowed to go into details. But you can imagine that a conductor has no clue of the Rail&Fly prices which are
38 LJ : This is going to be changed next year (or 2007 depending on contruction works) when the ICE International from Frankfurt hasn't Amsterdam Central Sta
39 NumberTwelve : Never heared about it - i know that MP and CI have Rail&Fly Amsterdam ex Germany. I have heared that German Rail wants to make agreement with Belgian
40 LJ : This I can understand. When KLM had Rail&Fly (every KLM ticket was automatically a free trainticket from any railway station to Schiphol Airport prov
41 NumberTwelve : lol@LJ. Bad info management at NS. They dont do any more when they fly with tour operators who offer flights from 15+ airports. But no QF, no QR, no S
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