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LH Cargo: More Realistic 772LRF Or 747AdvF?  
User currently offlineLHB727230Adv From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 255 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3606 times:

As most of us know, LH Cargo is currently looking at the 777-200LRF and the 747AdvF as possible replacements of and additions to their freighter fleet. I've been thinking about this for a while now and was wondering which aircraft suited LH better.
Now the 772LRF has the advantage of being a similar size to the MD-11F which LH currently operates, however, would be an oddball in the fleet (still, LH cargo is known for operating on non-commonality with LH mainline).
LH has been looking at the 747Adv as a gap filler to the A380 and a combined order with 747AdvF would settle commonality issues. Also, the 747AdvF would feature a nose loading door which seems to be an important issue to LH.
As much as I'd love to see a 777 in LH livery, I think they will go for the 747AdvF (assuming it gets launched). Write your thoughts.

Cheers,
Alex  bigthumbsup 

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3518 times:

They already ordered 5 777Fs.

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3497 times:

Lufthansa? I haven't seen or heard anything about an LH commitment to the 777F.

Perhaps you're thinking of Air France Cargo.

N


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3487 times:

Oh crap...you're right lol. I can't read!

User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3446 times:

Quoting LHB727230Adv (Thread starter):
Now the 772LRF has the advantage of being a similar size to the MD-11F which LH currently operates, however, would be an oddball in the fleet (still, LH cargo is known for operating on non-commonality with LH mainline).

Why do you think the B777 will suffer from being an "oddball", while the MD11 does not?

I'm assuming that you think the B777 would have an oddball status because LH pax does not operate B777s, right? True as it is, it still doesn't hide the fact that neither does LH pax operate MD11s - and as you say yourself, LH Cargo "is known for operating on non-commonality with LH mainline", so I really don't see the problem.

They don't seem to be needing the nose-loading capabilities of the B747, otherwise the current standardization on the MD11 wouldn't make sense.

Personally, I see the chances of the B777LRF as quite a bit higher than those of then B747Adv: it's roughly the size of what they have now (a bit bigger, I think), it's not as big as the planes they just got rid of, and, in all probability, it'll be better on the economical side of things.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3442 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 4):
They don't seem to be needing the nose-loading capabilities of the B747, otherwise the current standardization on the MD11 wouldn't make sense

I disagree. LH has wetleased several of their former 747Fs from Air Atlanta Icelandic. These aircraft do provide nose loading where necessary. The lease was specifically to allow LH time to rationalize their fleet.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

They might end up with both. The 777LRF is a good successor for the MD11 and will eventually replace a good number of the 19 MD11 in the LH fleet.

LH does need the nose loading capacity of the 747 as well and the remaining time on the 742's chartered though Air Atlanta is limited. That gap could be filled by 744SF conversions initially but the extra range and extra ca. 20 tons uplift is a clear advantage for the 747ADVF.

The decision for the 777 will not be influenced by what the passenger airline does, the potential fleet size is large enough for a stand-alone. However any 747 replacement will be in line with what LH does.If LH goes for the 747ADV an owned freighter fleet is likely, if not, 744SF leased through Air Atlanta or whomever will be the choice.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26488 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
That gap could be filled by 744SF conversions initially

Those are not nose loaded. They only come SCD. You have to get a fresh 747F to get the nose door



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineLHB727230Adv From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3355 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 4):
I'm assuming that you think the B777 would have an oddball status because LH pax does not operate B777s, right? True as it is, it still doesn't hide the fact that neither does LH pax operate MD11s - and as you say yourself, LH Cargo "is known for operating on non-commonality with LH mainline", so I really don't see the problem.

That's what I was trying to say, commonality isn't such a big issue with LH Cargo.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 4):
They don't seem to be needing the nose-loading capabilities of the B747, otherwise the current standardization on the MD11 wouldn't make sense.

The main reason for LH getting rid of their 742F was to reduce noise levels at FRA. The only reason they aren't buying 744F is that they are too expensive. LH has stated several times that they require a nose door on their freighters.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
They might end up with both. The 777LRF is a good successor for the MD11 and will eventually replace a good number of the 19 MD11 in the LH fleet.

This is also a possibility, I should have thought of this.

Cheers,
Alex  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3349 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):

Those are not nose loaded. They only come SCD. You have to get a fresh 747F to get the nose door

You are right indeed, I meant the conversions as a stop gap anyhow only.

What they need in first place is a solid profit margin and a better average yield before they make a decison on fleet replacement. I actually don't see that happen this year and I base that on a presentation made by the CFO a couple of weeks ago at the ACD in Frankfurt.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3303 times:

Quoting LHB727230Adv (Thread starter):
LH has been looking at the 747Adv as a gap filler to the A380 and a combined order with 747AdvF would settle commonality issues

Indeed LH is looking at the 747Adv closely. I always thought that LH would go for the 787 as the next Boeing plane being ordered but now when Airbus improved the A350 I am not so sure about that.
So maybe LH will go for the 747Adv (if it is launched) in both versions as a passenger plane (the gap filler like you mentioned) and the cargo version.
Maybe LH will also buy some 777LRF in addition to that, their biggest competitioner on the cargo market KLM/AF flies already 747-400F and has ordered 777LRF, too.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineLHB727230Adv From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3277 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 10):
I always thought that LH would go for the 787 as the next Boeing plane being ordered but now when Airbus improved the A350 I am not so sure about that.

I still think that LH will go for the 787 mainly because Airbus doesn't offer a short-haul version of the A350 and that's exactly what LH needs: an A300 replacement. The 787-3 is perfect for this and the long range versions could be used to replace LH's old A340-311s. So maybe we'll see a large LH order soon: 747Adv, 747AdvF, 777-200LRF, 787-3 and a couple 787-8.

Cheers,
Alex  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3226 times:

LH said that regarding the 787 that they are mainly interested in the larger version. That is whay I think that the A350 has higher chances. But who knows maybe we see a joint A350/787 order (787-300/-800 and A350-900).
Besides I really like your idea of a large LH order !!!

[Edited 2005-05-30 12:59:23]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineLHB727230Adv From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3185 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
Besides I really like your idea of a large LH order !!!

Thanks, I just hope that LH will finally decide to buy Boeing again (even though I like Airbus just as much), the 787 is in my opinion a far superior airplane to the A350. Only time will tell.

Cheers,
Alex  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3147 times:

Quoting LHB727230Adv (Reply 13):
Thanks, I just hope that LH will finally decide to buy Boeing again (even though I like Airbus just as much), the 787 is in my opinion a far superior airplane to the A350. Only time will tell.

Cheers,
Alex

@Alex
Bruder im Geiste  Wink

Finally someone who has exactly my opinion. BTW nice user name !!



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

I don't want to be obstrusive, but I do share that opinion and would like to see the 787, 777 and 747ADV become part of the futiure LH fleet.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3125 times:

LH buy a Boeing? What a breach of cliches! I would like to see the 747ADV go ahead. It would make the Boeing line complete and extensive. Even if Airbus have a bigger VLA, they still have that ominous gap between the A388 and the A346. In this, I hope that LH could help the 747ADV go ahead. On the other hand, I like the 777.

User currently offlineLHB727230Adv From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3083 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 14):
BTW nice user name !!

I've always been living in the past, the 727 is still the only real jet for me.

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Joe Pries - A.T. Team


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Photo © Michael Mantoudis



Quoting Columba (Reply 14):
Finally someone who has exactly my opinion.



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
I don't want to be obstrusive, but I do share that opinion and would like to see the 787, 777 and 747ADV become part of the futiure LH fleet



Quoting Glom (Reply 16):
I hope that LH could help the 747ADV go ahead.

It's good to know that I'm not the only one hoping for this order.

Cheers to all,
Alex  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2981 times:

Quoting LHB727230Adv (Reply 17):
I've always been living in the past, the 727 is still the only real jet for me.

It is definitely one of the most beautiful airliners ever build, if not the most beautiful ever.

Quoting LHB727230Adv (Reply 17):

It's good to know that I'm not the only one hoping for this order.

We should open a Club !!!



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2891 times:

Lufthansa Cargo´s biggest competitors are supposingly Air France/KLM Cargo and Cargolux.

Together Air France and KLM are operating 15 freighters (not counting combis or passenger planes that carry cargo in the lowerdecks). Air France has 8 Boeing 747-200F, 4 Boeing 747-400ERF + 5 777LRF on order. KLM Cargo operates three Boeing 747-400 Extended Range Freighters.
Cargolux has a fleet of 13 B747-400F pure freighter aircraft

Lufthansa Cargo seems to be the only one not operating the 747-400. Their fleet consists of 19 MD 11F which are smaller then the 747s of LH´s competitiors and lack the nose cargo door.
Lufthansa has said quite often that the 747F is too big for them but it seems not too big for its competitiors so I think that we will see the 747 again with LH Cargo either the 747Adv or ex mainline 747-430 Special Freighters (lacking the nose door).

Will be interesting to see how LH is dealing with its competiors fleet wise.
It sure will be an interesting question what new airplane will come next.
I doubt that it will be the A380F, though

[Edited 2005-05-30 23:12:00]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2880 times:

Together Air France and KLM are operating 15 freighters (not counting combis or passenger planes that carry cargo in the lowerdecks

those 19/20 747Combi's in KLM are counted together more than 9 full freighters (or more) so why not coun't that to?

besides when KLM thinks its time to replace the 747 fleet (not soon, since they have some of the youngest, but also oldest) they need an aircraft with a rather good Cargo load... and since combi's aren't build anymore its more likely they will order planes like the size of a 787-900/A350-900 and more Pure Freighters....


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2867 times:

Incidentally, when is the Paris Airshow? If LH do go for the 747ADVF, could we see an order made then?

User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2805 times:

Another option is to convert some of their 744s to freighters, maybe buy some native 744F for the nose loading. Or look for some more MD11 on the 2nd hand market.

I don't see the need for 777F. It'll be more efficient than the MD11, no doubt, but that will be compensated by the acquisition price.

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineLHB727230Adv From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2766 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 18):
We should open a Club !!!

The "LH Should Buy Boeing Club"  Wink

Quoting Columba (Reply 19):
I think that we will see the 747 again with LH Cargo either the 747Adv or ex mainline 747-430 Special Freighters (lacking the nose door).

I don't really think that the 747-400SF is a realistic option for LH because as we all know, it still lacks the nose door, so I still think the 747AdvF is a better option.

Quoting Columba (Reply 19):
I doubt that it will be the A380F, though

Agreed. The A380 may be just a little to large for LH cargo and, again, the lack of a nose door would make loading and unloading a rather difficult and time consuming process.

Quoting Glom (Reply 21):
Incidentally, when is the Paris Airshow? If LH do go for the 747ADVF, could we see an order made then?

This is what I'm waiting for, a potential LH order at the Paris Air Show, maybe the launch of the 747Adv and AdvF. The show begins (I think) on the 13th of June and ends on the 19th.

Quoting A350 (Reply 22):
Another option is to convert some of their 744s to freighters, maybe buy some native 744F for the nose loading. Or look for some more MD11 on the 2nd hand market.

As has been said before, LH wants nose doors on their freighters and converted 747-400SFs don't have them. As to the pure 747-400F, LH has stated that they are too expensive to acquire.

LH has just acquired an additional 5 converted MD-11F. The main problem is that there aren't that many second hand MD-11s left and they are difficult to acquire. Adding to that, converted freighters can't carry as much payload as newly built freighters.

Quoting A350 (Reply 22):
I don't see the need for 777F. It'll be more efficient than the MD11, no doubt, but that will be compensated by the acquisition price.

This is a general problem between LH and Boeing. LH is put off by the high prices for aircraft at Boeing and thus end up buying Airbus instead.

Cheers,
Alex  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2654 times:

Quoting LHB727230Adv (Reply 23):
Quoting A350 (Reply 22):
Another option is to convert some of their 744s to freighters, maybe buy some native 744F for the nose loading. Or look for some more MD11 on the 2nd hand market.

As has been said before, LH wants nose doors on their freighters and converted 747-400SFs don't have them. As to the pure 747-400F, LH has stated that they are too expensive to acquire.

That's why I suggested to mix 744SFs and 744Fs. I suppose they don't need the nose door every flight. So, they can just send the 744F where the nose door is required. I wonder why no airline to my knowledge did this.

A bit OT: is the main deck of the A300/A330/A340 fuse to small to efficiently haul cargo? Can they haul two pallets parallel? If yes, LH cargo could look for used A340s and convert them to freighters.

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
25 Zvezda : No, maindeck of the A340 is not too small to haul cargo. The reason why the A340 is not so used is that it doesn't have the payload capacity (by weig
26 MD 11 : Ehm, perhaps I am not updated lately (sorry), but I never heard, that LHCargo want to buy new planes other than the MD 11!? Didn`t they buy some more
27 Columba : LH Cargo is very interested in the 777LRF but they said they won´t place an order before 2007. They also evaluate the A380F.
28 ClipperNo1 : I don't see how current yields would justify a rise of capacity. I've got word from a pretty reliable LCAG that they are not looking for new freighter
29 Bmacleod : When did LH retire the 742F?
30 Columba : The last one left the fleet January 2005.
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