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Song To Start BOS-LAX/SFO; BDL-LAX  
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5721 posts, RR: 46
Posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9835 times:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050601/clw018.html?.v=13
Three new routes for Song announced today. Beginning September 6th, Song will start twice-daily service from BOS to both SFO and LAX. Also, they will launch the only nonstop service on BDL-LAX, operating a single daily flight, starting September 6th as well.

Comment: The two new Boston routes were only a matter of time, however I'm a bit surprised by BDL-LAX. I could have seen that flight sometime down the road, but would have expected SLC service first. Still, great news for BDL.

96 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6485 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9770 times:

I was surprised by BDL-LAX as well...I would have expected UA or AA to offer this route first. It won't be easy for DL to fill a 199 seat plane on this route, but I guess they believe they can.

The extra BOS flights are no surprise, but it's good to see BOS finally getting some growth. DL's got a huge new terminal to fill and this is a start.

Any news about the rumored SLC-MCO and SEA-MCO Song flights??

[Edited 2005-06-01 14:31:55]

User currently offlineBoeing757/767 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2278 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9763 times:

AA used to run daily 738 service from BDL to LAX, so hopefully this will work out.


Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6004 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9762 times:

This does come as a surprise. Be nice to see more of the snot covered 757's on the west coast and specially here at SFO where some color is needed. I wonder if United will or is in the position to make any response.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineEric777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 199 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9742 times:

According to faremeasure.com, 342 people per day travel between BDL and LAX. Obviously not all of them fly DL, but if they can convince 199 of 342 to take the flight, then the flight will work. A nice addition for BDL. Nice pickups for BOS too.

Eric


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9733 times:

Everyone knows that I am going to say this..

Where the Heck is the RDU-LAX service? I'm getting so disappointed at this.. somebody needs to jump on the RDU-LAX..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9730 times:

But congratulations to BDL for getting some LAX service..


Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3406 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9717 times:

Yes, good for BDL, however, I thought PVD-MCO on Song would be above that on the priority list. AA and UA just got an early morning wake-up call on their beloved BOS-LAX/SFO service. First B6 trims at the edges (LGB & OAK) and now DL Song throws the round-house...

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12064 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9705 times:

That is good news for BOS, BDL, LAX and SFO. Now if we can only convince Song to add a stop each way at DFW, for one of their BOS-LAX and BOS SFO dailys. That still leaves the other one as a non-stop.  Cool

User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9690 times:

Well BDL had announced an incentive package for west coast service so it's obvously ties into that. However with only 342 daily O&D pax and 398 seats both ways (and not everyone flies DL, or at those times) I would expect the flight to perform rather poorly. However, that said, since its a red eye ( not parked overnight) in addition to the incentives may have made it work a try. AA was not sucessful with a 738 when O&D #'s were higher than they are now and AA had connection opportunities unlike DL, so we'll see...


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9671 times:

The BDL flight should do very well. Delta averages 58 passengers a day now connecting. Not only will Delta take some market share from UA/AA, BDL should see some passengers driving to JFK/BOS for non-stops and lower fares start come back.

This is a good sign for Song. I think if JFK-LAX had terrible numbers, they would have held these markets back and gone for more leisure destinations or Delta friendly markets. But they're still taking the fight to Jetblue and AA/UA.


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9656 times:

The 342 figure is OW, not a combined bi-directional total.

User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2087 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9637 times:

I hope the BDL service works. We did have AA with the 738, and prior we had UA do SFO with the 319, both of which were dropped. With Songs fare structure, they could pick up new cheap ticket pax. Like somebody else said, it keeps a 757 from sitting idle overnight. Now we need jetblue!

User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4199 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9618 times:

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 10):
Not only will Delta take some market share from UA/AA, BDL should see some passengers driving to JFK/BOS for non-stops and lower fares start come back.

I agree with Padcrasher on this. There are a lot of people who live in New Haven/Waterbury and Worcester areas that routinely drive to New York and Boston areas for longer flights. But at the end of the day, I am not sure if it will work. BDL has had BDL-LAX before (as well as BDL-SFO on UA) but this is the first time with an LCC. Maybe it will be different this time around.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3406 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9550 times:

DL will have to more than triple it's market share on this route/market to fill the 757, and with a red-eye return flight, this may prove difficult. Having said that, I think it's good for BDL that they got DL's attention on this route to begin with - somthing we seem to be unable to do here in PVD  Sad

User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 18
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9541 times:

In all honesty, PVD has 2 good candidates for service to LAS/PHX/LAX.. and that would be either WN or US.. both seem to do well in the area..

Therefore, those 2 would be my first and highly prioritized carreirs to go to for that service..

US could do a 321 or757 redeye to LAX from PVD as they use both of those aircraft their nightly..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9503 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 5):
Where the Heck is the RDU-LAX service? I'm getting so disappointed at this.. somebody needs to jump on the RDU-LAX..

Maybe a lack of market to support this service could be the reason.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3406 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9470 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 16):
Maybe a lack of market to support this service could be the reason.

At 333 passengers each way, RDU-LAX is one of, if the not the largest O & D markets without nonstop service (now that BDL-LAX is coming to fruition).


User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3406 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9441 times:

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 11):
The 342 figure is OW, not a combined bi-directional total

That is total passengers in the market, so 171 each way. Looks like DL has a uphill battle if you ask me...


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32191 posts, RR: 72
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 9377 times:

The Hartford-Los Angeles market is actually 576 daily passengers. Remember, DOT does not combine the LA-area airports (nor the SF or Miami-area airports) like they do for Chicago, NYC, Dallas, Houston, and DC.

BDL-LAX: 342
BDL-SNA: 139
BDL-ONT: 63
BDL-BUR: 32
BDL-LGB: >10



a.
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 9358 times:

I stand corrected that 342 figure is both ways.

User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3406 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 9361 times:

Good point MAH, but it is clear the bulk of the market is pure BDL-LAX. Opening up an entire region's O & D in many cases clouds the actual service. If I could count BOS's O & D (only 50 miles from PVD), we would have nonstop service to 20 more markets than we do now...

Top O & D markets with at least 125 average one way passengers without any nonstop service (DOT 3Q04 data only - annual average numbers will vary):

1) MCO-SAN 356 avg. daily total pax
2) ORF-SAN 347
3) RDU-DEN 346 (go nuts ERJ170!)
4) SEA-TPA 336
5) PIT-SEA 335 (US drops this 8/22/05)
6) SEA-FLL 334 (long flight!)
7) RDU-LAX 333 (calm down ERJ170!)
8) PVD-SAN 296
9) PVD-LAX 282 (we've been loosing many more pax to B6/BOS)
10) PDX-MCO 282
11) BUF-FLL 275 (anyone from NK reading this???)
12) FLL-SAN 269
13) PVD-LAS 267 (between WN and US/HP, this should become reality soon)
14) ORF-LAX 263
15) PHL-PDX 256 (US/HP merger should knock this one off the list too)
16) PDX-BOS 256 (long term US/HP route?)
17) BDL-SEA 254 (AS future route?)
18) RDU-MCI 248 (too close to the cut to leave off)

# of times on this list:

SAN 4
SEA 4
PDX 3
PVD 3
RDU 3
LAX 3
FLL 3
MCO 2
ORF 2
BDL 1
PHL 1
BUF 1
PIT 1
DEN 1
TPA 1
LAS 1
BOS 1
MCI 1

let me know if I missed any markets you think should be on here...


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32191 posts, RR: 72
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 9306 times:

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 21):
Good point MAH, but it is clear the bulk of the market is pure BDL-LAX. Opening up an entire region's O & D in many cases clouds the actual service. If I could count BOS's O & D (only 50 miles from PVD), we would have nonstop service to 20 more markets than we do now...

Good point, covering market leakage can be difficult, so that's why I just put it by metro area. MIA/FLL/PBI, LAX/ONT/SNA/BUR/SNA, and SFO/OAK/SJC are used as coterminals by most majors. BOS/PVD/MHT are, IIRC, not. Although there is definitley market leakage between BOS/PVD/MHT, and other airport pairs (MOB/PNS/VPS), it is hard to measure the tru effects. Of any two airport pairs, MIA/FLL and SFO/OAK probably have the most market leakage to each other. Also, there are cases where an airline's presence in the market makes the market to a secondary airport simply larger. Look at how big the FLL-LGB market is thanks to jetBlue (276 daily passengers).

In the case of MIA especially, the majority of the domestic traffic has always gone through FLL. Combining the fitures, the RDU-QLA is 616 passengers, MFW-BUF has 527 daily passengers; PVD-QLA has 443, and MFW-SAN has 426.

(also, side note, but I am using older numbers than those recently updated on Faremeausure).



a.
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 9230 times:

Okay.. somebody explain QLA and MFW..

Don't forget RDU-Bay is 400 (256 SFO + 134 OAK)...



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3406 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 9212 times:

Huh, I have to thank you MAH, as I had stopped checking faremeasure and was relying on farewatch since faremeasure's data was from 3Q03 or something...thanks! Oh, by the way, BOS/PVD/MHT has a huge amount of leakage. As the networks become more point to point, there will be less relyance on the MSA to MSA routes (since they are mostly already served) and the second tier or "competeing" airports will become more attractive. As a route like BOS-LAX becomes saturated with capacity and the fares come down, there is less incentive to ignore PVD/MHT since the playing field becomes more level. In this case, a carrier can offer the 1x daily service PVD-LAX at the lower fare because the fare premium at BOS has been dilluted, therfore reducing the oppurtunity to make more money at BOS, while at the same time enjoying no competion at PVD driving up demand as the people seeking the nonstop come back to PVD...

25 John : MFW=MIA/FLL/PBI QLA=LAX/BUR/LGB/SNA/ONT
26 DarthRandall : I think this is great news for New Englanders. This should make it much easier than it is right now to get a flight to the West Side from a convenient
27 Eric777 : Interesting. I had no idea so many pax flew BDL-SEA. Wouldn't it be something to an Alaska bird in BDL? BDL-SEA could work as you have a fair amount
28 PVD757 : disregard the previous list I posted in reply #21, here's one that is more accurate: 3Q04 DOT total average daily pax (only - annual numbers will vary
29 Jrlander : The new Song flight from LAX-BDL will be a red-eye, correct? Then Delta doesn't have to fill it to make it worth while. They simply need to have enoug
30 Padcrasher : But having one day flight one-way gives Delta the clear advantage here. Even with one-way fares, people that dont' care for red eye's will book the no
31 DeltaMIA : The biggest reason BDL is awarded with their nonstop to LAX by Song is that it continues to be right up there with SJU as one of Song's most profitabl
32 Post contains images LambertMan : Oh boy, I certainly didn't see the ERJ "why don't we get service to LAX!??!?" post coming.
33 Usairways85 : Are the O&D numbers combined for BWI/DCA/IAD. BWI may not have a nonstop to SEA, however DCA has 2 and IAD has 5
34 Lax44 : I think the AA BDL-LAX 738 service was around for a decent period of time before being dropped after 9/11. Can't say my facts are accurate though as I
35 RL757PVD : BDL had LAX on AA twice i believe... once before 9/11, then it was gone for a little while, then came back, and i believe it was supposed to come back
36 PVD757 : BWI is seperate whereas DCA and IAD are combined to make the "WAS" market. NYC is EWR/LGA/JFK combined. HOU is IAH and HOU combined. All other market
37 N1120A : Los Angeles Metro Airports. All 5 of them You left out SJC It is a Song flight
38 Jrlander : Actually- Song would have connection oppotunities at LAX. The Song website won't show them, but I think Delta.com will. There will not be many, but so
39 DAL767400ER : True, but the flight numbers for Song usually are in the 1975-2099 range. In the 9XXX range, DL currently uses the numbers -9024 for FlyBE and 9025-9
40 DeltAirlines : I'd expect them to be just dummy flight numbers. I'm sure they'll change these and the times when the Fall schedule is released. The BDL-LAX flight is
41 SHUPirate1 : Interesting to note that the cheapest fare Song is selling those flights for is $448.40 round-trip. Not sure if passengers will pay for those types of
42 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Only because Song hasn't offered introductory fares yet .
43 DeltaMIA : The lowest WN fare is $432 round-trip with some stops. Presently it isn't necessary to offer a low fare to LAX in the high traveled month of Sept. Fa
44 MAH4546 : It never came back after 9.11. It was announced to return in June 2002, but it never started. Yes, IIRC, it was. CHI is MDW+ORD and DAL is DFW+DAL. M
45 RL757PVD : Ok...i knew one time I was announced and never started, perhaps it may be been prior to 9/11 but i think i recall the service ending and comming back
46 ChrisNH : Taking Song as part of Delta, this is, what, the third time they've tried transcon out of Boston? Each time they retrenched with tail between legs. So
47 TCTTX : Actually, AA had BDL-LAX flights in the 70s on 707s, and UA had BDL-LAX nonstops in the late 70s and around 85-86 on DC8s.
48 Jayspilot : delta DOES have connection options available at LAX. Besides and additional route to Hawaii, delta DOES codeshare with american eagle out of LAX to a
49 Padcrasher : No, no connecting opportunities at all. Unless you count the ICN codeshare, the CAN codeshare, the TPE codeshare, the PPT codeshare, the KUL flight on
50 BOSPMV : This is great, for both BOS and BDL, I was wondering when Song would introduce non-stop flights to the west coast. Hopefully this will drive down the
51 Modesto2 : It's great to see DL give more attention to the West Coast, especially SFO and LAX. I'm curious to see how SFO-BOS performs. Go Delta!
52 ChrisNH : At their peak out of Boston, I think UA fielded four nonstops to LAX and six to SFO. Now I think it's down to two and four respectively. AA, too, had
53 Jrlander : Padcrasher- There is one bank of American eagle codeshare flights after the Delta flight arrives. So while the connecting options are limited- they ar
54 Eric777 : How easy is it to transfer between Delta/Song and American Eagle at LAX? Do they operate out of the same terminal? I've never been to LAX so I don't k
55 Jrlander : American Eagle has its own remote concourse. There is a shuttle bus from the AA and DL terminals to that concourse. One does not need to leave securit
56 Commavia : Correct. Pre-9/11, both AA and UA flew four daily flights BOS-LAX with a mix of 757/767 equipment on both airlines. Today, UA is down to two daily 75
57 MAH4546 : All of AA's BOS-LAX (and BOS-MIA flights) were going to go 757s regardless of Song. AA is pulling all 738 flying out of Boston in late 05/early 06. T
58 BOSPMV : wouldn't lowering prices be a better move rather than adding capacity. From what I have seen, the BOS-LAX-BOS routes do well(I fly that route atleast
59 MAH4546 : No. If you are going to lower prices, you need to add capacity so you can keep revenue. The 738s are mainly going to Miami, with a few in Dallas. The
60 BOSPMV : Do you believe Song can be successful with their new service out of BOS and BDL? How come they are not in MIA? What about an expansion out of FLL to i
61 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Yes Because JetBlue isn't at MIA either . Doubtful for now. What is likely to happen is a TPA-LAS flight (since MCO and FLL both have one), and SFO s
62 MAH4546 : The only LCC service at MIA is airTran's four daily Atlanta flights. MIA is a high-yielding airport. UAL's SFO-MCO/LAX service actually have a contra
63 DeltaMIA : DL was very close to announcing JFK flights last Nov. on M88's. I don't know why they elected not to. MIA will likely be a future Song market. BOS-LA
64 MAH4546 : That is nice to hear that Song is looking at MIA. Though I think Delta could be wise to offer a mainline service to connect to the European bank at J
65 Post contains images Womack17 : Sic em ERJ!!! PVD I have enjoyed your postings for sometime now and I laughed hysterically at your comments to my good buddy, ERJ170. Welcome to my R
66 BOSPMV : They droped the AUS flight a couple years back. I love the SAN flight, a dail 757. Also, the MSY flight is only a seasonal flight, although I would n
67 Commavia : I really don't think AA is too worried about DL competition on BOS-LAX/SFO beyond the fact that it will be bloated capacity on the routes. As to the
68 Post contains images Womack17 : MAH, (and of course anyone else who would like to chime in) If I may ask you for a little of your time In looking at the numbers from PVD757's posting
69 WindowSeat : That is perhaps because people here in SFO have not really heard about Song. Neither do I see an aggressive marketing campaign to market their produc
70 MAH4546 : They are very aware of them. They use them, but the longer the route, the bigger the numbers usually have to be. In addition, generally if you are ta
71 BOSPMV : How do you figure? There are still 2 daily non-stop flights on 752s, the fact that there are 2 daily flights seems to me like they still care. Yea, t
72 MAH4546 : You just answered the question yourself. They used to have 4 dailies, now two. And LAX is a UA hub, not a focus city. A full hub. It is for both ways
73 DAL767400ER : You conveniently forgot to mention JFK, from where DL serves alot of cities not served from CVG or ATL, like ATH, IST, NCE, or VCE, plus non-transatl
74 N1120A : Yeah, those times are majorly messed up considering the winds are in the opposite direction as DL protrays them there Actually, several of DL's codes
75 PVD757 : Thanks Womack; as always, I return the gesture with regards to the respected user list...I'm glad I've managed to not tee off everyone on here with m
76 Commavia : As MAH said, the care, but not as much as AA. While UA has gone from 4 daily flights with 2 757s and 2 767s to just two 757s (and actually an A320 an
77 FLAIRPORT : I was just doing a hypothetical as I will be in CT for the start of the service BDL-LAX and its like $192 1/w and it appears that maybe 3 seats combin
78 RL757PVD : Like i said before there are 342 O&D pax.. Lets play with some numbers here for a minute..... Assume 80% loads and Song would take 60% of the market s
79 WindowSeat : Exactly my point! People know Delta, but they don't know Song. We all know, that the Song product is considerably different from Delta mainline. Peop
80 MAH4546 : They are. But how does that change the fact that airTran is the only LCC at MIA right now?
81 Johnboy : The first big 3/4 page Song ad was in the SF Chronicle this past Sunday. I have yet to see any billboards or TV/radio commercials, if indeed they util
82 BOSPMV : they just added another daily 757 flight for the summer I believe, and also, America West still serves SFO out of BOS on a seasonal basis. I think ha
83 DeltaMIA : FYI to supply the aircraft for these routes Song will discontinue MCO-EWR and RSW-JFK.
84 Lear35pilot : Quoting DeltaMIA FYI to supply the aircraft for these routes Song will discontinue MCO-EWR and RSW-JFK. This is really disappointing. As a resident of
85 Commavia : The third 757 flight was the seasonal addition, although looking ahead in the schedules, it appears that it may stick around all year. Also, HP's tra
86 MAH4546 : America West has discontinued all trans-con flying out of San Francisco, both Boston and New York City, after the summer. This isn't a seasonal chang
87 DeltaMIA : I would say even more than that. Some flights, like Italy, are nearly all local NYC traffic.
88 BOSPMV : thanks for the info, I was under the impression they were only going to operate it on a seasonal basis to both cities, thank you. How much higher are
89 Commavia : It's because of New York's O&D capacity. The New York area, much like Miami with Latin America (although not to quite the same extent) has such an im
90 MAH4546 : Significantly higher, about $10-$12 per passengers. I believe it is around $3-$4 per passenger at FLL and $14-$16 per passenger at MIA. Yeah, I was b
91 N1120A : Not at all. Just trying to get that clear Matt
92 DAL767400ER : MCO-EWR doesn't really surprise me, as CO flies that route, and DL likely doesn't want its LCC-unit to compete with an important partner. What I am s
93 DeltaMIA : DL9741 will become DL1984 (BOS-SFO-BOS) DL9742 will become DL1977 (BDL-LAX-BDL) DL9743 will become DL1978 (BOS-SFO-BOS)
94 DAL767400ER : Ah, good to know. So, since the flight numbers are stil being kept in the 1975-2099 range does that mean that all the old flight numbers (except the
95 EnginesRUs : I thought both engine types on the world 757 fleet were performing quite nicely - care to clarify that remark with some hard data? Just curious.
96 LACA773 : If DL starts having problems with load factors on the LAX-BDL-LAX route, maybe they'll move some 738s over to Song since they already are using some s
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