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The True Impact Of A Curfew  
User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3329 posts, RR: 20
Posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2460 times:

As most know, SYD has a curfew 2300-0600, although some services are allowed in between 0500-0600 for the summer schedule (1 x BA, 1 x QF and 1 x SQ).

The interesting thing I find is the impact on the evening ops.

It seems that although the curfew is 2300, it is effectively earlier than that, as airlines are hesitant to operate close to the schedule period, and therefore have to overnight in the case of delay.

Looking at the schedule, the last of the international services arrive by 2000, the last coming in at 2025. This is three hours b4 curfew! Also, most departures are prior to 2145, although the MH service is listed as 2220, which results in an 0430 arrival in KUL.

Any other airport round the world faced with the same issues. ie. major impact on ops in the evening due to curfew? Also, any examples of airlines really cutting it fine eg 2255 departures with an 2300 curfew??

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2430 times:

Quoting 6thfreedom (Thread starter):
Also, any examples of airlines really cutting it fine eg 2255 departures with an 2300 curfew??

AFAIK when it comes to departing, "curfew times" mean "Airborne-time", but not "Closing the aircafts doors". So with a schedule 2255 departure (= closing a/c-doors) it will not be possible to be airborne at 2300h. Also in order to keep the NIMBY´s happy, any a/c buzzing their house at say 2302h might consider it a violation of the curfew, while the a/c actually was airborne before 2300h. In case the legislation is that strict (which I do not know for SYD ) it will be in the interest of the airport to allow operations only to so-and-so many minutes before the curfew comes into effect, that any departing a/c is clear of the relevant area before the actual curfew starts. (the same should be true for landings in the morning).
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12148 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2397 times:

We have a strict nose abatement curfew here at DFW. Runways 13L/31R, 17L/35R, and 13R/31L are closed every night from 2200-0600.

User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8451 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2379 times:

Simple solution for SYD - High Speed Train and CBR.

User currently offlineHikesWithEyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 816 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

AS has to deal with curfews at SAN/SJC/SNA/LGB.
SAN has 2330 takeoff curfew, as does SJC. SJC has a landing curfew
of 2330 also, but usually we can get extensions by notifying the airport
in advance.
SNA is the most stringent. I think it's 2300 for takeoff and landings.
Usually we can get extensions for landing until 2320.
LGB has a "soft curfew" of 2200 and a "hard" curfew of 2300.
If unable to make it in or out before these times, then the flight is usually
sent to LAX, and the passengers are bussed to their final destination.
It's a pain for all concerned.



First, benzene in my Perrier, and now this!
User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2246 times:

ZRH has the same curfew as SYD apparently: 23.00-6.00. Result: from 6.00-7.00 all Asian flights arrive one after the other. I have even been told, that they are flying holding patterns, when they arrive too early, for example due to strong east winds. That would be silly: wasting fuel on holding patterns is apparently better han landing 15 or 30 minutes earlier .....

Gerardo



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2240 times:

CLT has a noise-ordanence that goes into effect at 2300...only one runway is permitted between then and either 0500 or 0600. Of course, US, back last month, had a departure bank conviniently timed at 2300ish, so for my flight, a 14 minute hop from CLT up to GSO, we had a taxi of 35 minutes, since we were #23 for take off, and they had to get some freighters into CLT at that time as well. Today, they're not operating that 2300 bank, but it's back next week.

Jeff


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2206 times:

live by the airport, expect planes coming in..live in toronto, expect cold winters...there shouldn't be curfews allowed...to bad for the NIMBY's..most lived AFTER the airports were constructed..the ones who have been present before airports being constructed (if indeed they can prove them)...compensate them for a move if they so choose...


"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineMissedApproach From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 713 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2197 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
live in toronto, expect cold winters

 laughing  Toronto doesn't get cold winters. Edmonton, Pembroke & Quebec City get cold winters! I suppose it's all relative though.
Thule, Greenland doesn't have an actual curfew per se, but aircraft arriving or departing outside of "normal" working hours (0600-1600) must pay a fee. I understand this includes overtime wages for all personnel involved. I'm not sure just how expensive that is, but rather than doing that, we landed at Iqaluit & they put 35 of us in hotels at $150 Cdn each for one night, so it must be very pricey indeed.



Can you hear me now?
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2197 times:

Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 8):
Toronto doesn't get cold winters. Edmonton, Pembroke & Quebec City get cold winters! I suppose it's all relative though.

OK..its all relative...I lived in Chicago and Chicago suburbs for 3 decades..and ORD has YYZ-esque weather..but now I live in the Bay Area for the past few years (SJC/SFO)...so for me, its a big, big change-much warmer...... biggrin   bigthumbsup 

regardless.....its about choices..



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineTbanger From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 266 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2113 times:

Quote:
6thfreedom Thread starter

As most know, SYD has a curfew 2300-0600, although some services are allowed in between 0500-0600 for the summer schedule (1 x BA, 1 x QF and 1 x SQ).

Just adding to this. The aircraft landing after 5.00am is only accepted if a landing can be made on Rwy34L. If a stiff southerly is blowing, then the flight holds @ Bindook until ATC clear it in.

An incident occured a few years ago with a QF flight. Heres the link.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=244


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3329 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

Excellent stuff Tbanger.

very interesting reading.

Do you know if QF was fined for landing during curfew, or was this prior to that legislation being implemented.

I recall just a few years ago a TG aircraft took off on it's MEL-BKK run about 15 mins after curfew, and was fined A$125,000, or something like that.

I thing it was mardi gra weekend in sydney, grand prix in melbourne, and there was no accommodation for the passengers if they had to overnight.


User currently offlineDugway From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2077 times:

Quoting Tbanger (Reply 10):
Just adding to this. The aircraft landing after 5.00am is only accepted if a landing can be made on Rwy34L. If a stiff southerly is blowing, then the flight holds @ Bindook until ATC clear it in.

The same applies for delayed flights arriving at night. They can arrive between 2300 and 0000 on 34L. Around a month ago, arrived on a delayed QF30, arrived at 2317 after a last minute change of plane at LHR meant departure was delayed by 4+ hours.

When we left both LHR and HKG, the pilot couldn't confirm whether we would make it to SYD by the curfew, and even if we did make it whether it would be possible to land due to a southerly or be diverted to BNE.

D P G


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3329 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2060 times:

How often would these out of curfew occurences occur at SYD?
1 flight per week, 1 per month, or less than that??

If anyone else has any similar stories, please post em.

 bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4575 posts, RR: 40
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2054 times:

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 3):
Simple solution for SYD - High Speed Train and CBR.

Would that be the high speed train that wasn't built because it was going to cost A$50 Billion, and the tickets would have to have been priced at the same level as full fare economy or even business class?

On the issue of curfews, I think they are justified, especially where departure and approach tracks run over populated areas. That being said, there should be some scope for the noise level of the actual aircraft. For instance, a louder aircraft type might be banned between 9pm and 7am, whereas quieter ones might only be restricted from midnight to 5am. With any luck, as engines get quieter, aircraft noise issues will become more of a non-event - especially if Boeing delivers on its promise of the 787 only causing a high noise level within the average airport boundary, but I wouldn't be holding my breath for this moment...

For those of you criticising people who complain of aircraft noise, it might be worthwhile walking a mile in their shoes before making your comments. Not everyone is an aviation nut who worships the whine of a jet engine (a shame, but that's life). A significant number of people who are affected by aircraft noise are not right next door to the airport, but under departure and approach paths. It would be highly impractical to resettle people away from the paths.

This is an issue which really should be looked at objectively, lest we create the image of aviation enthusiasts being a bunch of arrogant rivetcounters who don't care about other people. I'm not saying we should become the curfew cheer squad, but by the same token, we shouldn't be rushing to cut down anyone who complains about aircraft noise...

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2035 times:

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 14):
With any luck, as engines get quieter, aircraft noise issues will become more of a non-event - especially if Boeing delivers on its promise of the 787 only causing a high noise level within the average airport boundary, but I wouldn't be holding my breath for this moment...

That´s an issue for a/c taking off only ... Already today, most modern a/c an approach generate most of its noise by its flaps and its landing gear but not from the engines. And if the carrier and/or the airport have a policy NOT to use thrust reversers (and the rwy is long enough) also the landing is rather quiet ...

I recall LH having performed approaches in different configurations (settings) over an airfield equipped with microphones in order to gather basic data in the issue several years ago.
One can really identify the a/c-type based on its noise produced by spoilers and landing gear ...



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
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