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Love Field . . .who Gives A Rat's *ss?!?  
User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3626 posts, RR: 6
Posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4113 times:

Before I start this thread, let me make it clear that I don't really have a position on the current Texas battle. As someone who has spent quite a bit of time in Dallas, but lives in NYC, I can't help but ask what I'm sure many people are thinking . . . WHO CARES??

There are two very useable airports in the area and the metroplex is big. At a time when most of the US is dealing with overcrowded airports and skyrocketing delays, is having excess airport capacity and runways a very big deal?? Hell, it's a blessing.

I have heard some arguments for and against a Wright Amendment repeal. It would set DFW back, it would create a conflict between Ft. Worth and Dallas, it would only help Southwest.

In the end, this is an AA and Southwest fight. AA feels that their global hub will be undermined by a closer-in airport. Southwest feels they should be able to serve the country from their hub at Love. All the rest of us are just pawns in a game of big business.

Can't the DFW area operate a multi-airport system such as NY, Chicago, LA, SF, Miami/FLL, DC, London, Paris, Rome, Milan, Tokyo and every other respectably-sized metro area on the face of the planet??

Besides business politics, I just don't see the issue.

PJ

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4096 times:

Can't the DFW area operate a multi-airport system such as NY, Chicago, LA, SF, Miami/FLL, DC, London, Paris, Rome, Milan, Tokyo and every other respectably-sized metro area on the face of the planet??

No. Beacause they can't support both now. ->See empty gates at DFW.


User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4090 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Thread starter):
Can't the DFW area operate a multi-airport system such as NY, Chicago, LA, SF, Miami/FLL, DC, London, Paris, Rome, Milan, Tokyo and every other respectably-sized metro area on the face of the planet??

Don't forget Houston  box 



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineAloha73g From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2372 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4079 times:

I read somehwhere that DFW's airlines (AA) get to share in the airport's profits, btu also have to make payments if it loses money. This may be why AA is so opposed to "Setting Love Free."

BTW, I am in favor scrapping it and letting competition do its job.

Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4063 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Thread starter):
Can't the DFW area operate a multi-airport system such as NY, Chicago, LA, SF, Miami/FLL, DC, London, Paris, Rome, Milan, Tokyo and every other respectably-sized metro area on the face of the planet??

Many of us would love to, but the Wright Amendment is a federal law. It's an issue that's germain to the entire United States, not just North Texas. We can't work it out locally, it must be resolved in Congress. That's why lawmakers in Nevada, Tenn., and Alabama are getting involved.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 1):
No. Beacause they can't support both now. ->See empty gates at DFW.

Big deal... they've been empty for less than 4 months and DFW is in no risk of losing solvency. It's a matter of DFW having to leave their comfort bubble and compete rather than the airport collapsing and losing it's presence as a world-class facility.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21582 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4058 times:

Also, Love was supposed to be closed after DFW opened. It is close into neighborhoods where DFW was built away from people (though neighborhoods have since sprung up). The land at Love is very valuable, too, no doubt.

The logical solution is to close Love as was the original plan. It would make DFW the airport it should be, and it would lower fares on AA. DFW has plenty of room for WN, and with the volume of flights they would fly, AA couldn't control and dominate take-off slots, etc.

I say call both airlines' bluff. WN wants Wright repealed but doesn't want to move to DFW but wants to convert this "regional" airport into a national one. AA wants Wright kept, but really doesn't want WN at DFW. So, lets get WN to DFW and let the fur fly!! I'd LUV to see that.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4043 times:

The metroplex can operate two airports, however, DFW can't. It is too big because it is suppose to be THE airport for the metroplex. I think they should open up the Wright Amendment, but not right now. Maybe in a few years.

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4021 times:

Big deal... they've been empty for less than 4 months and DFW is in no risk of losing solvency. It's a matter of DFW having to leave their comfort bubble and compete rather than the airport collapsing and losing it's presence as a world-class facility.

Tell that to the DFW Authority employees collecting unemployment and the bond agencies.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4013 times:

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 6):
I think they should open up the Wright Amendment, but not right now. Maybe in a few years.

At the very least, the prohibition on through ticketing sales needs to go immediatly. WN can't even sell a ticket like DAL-HOU-LAS or DAL-LIT-MDW, what's with that?

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
AA wants Wright kept, but really doesn't want WN at DFW. So, lets get WN to DFW and let the fur fly!! I'd LUV to see that.

By WN's study done in November of 2004, flying out of DFW would increase opperational cost as much as 25-50% compared to DAL. For an LCC carrier, that can only come out of their yields...


User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3987 times:

By WN's study done in November of 2004, flying out of DFW would increase opperational cost as much as 25-50% compared to DAL. For an LCC carrier, that can only come out of their yields...

But they also said they could make a profit at DFW too.

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3980 times:

By WN's study done in November of 2004

That's a problem right there. Given the airfield expansion opportunity, technology integration planned and the removal of DL any study done would be innnacurate at this point unless it was done in the last few months.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21582 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3970 times:

Turn that around. Due to WN operating out of a facility that was supposed to be closed down 30 years ago, they are benefitting from lower costs that have helped them grow from nobody to super LCC. Now that they are a big boy, let them deal with big boy problems...

AA's going to lose business too if WN moves to DFW. But ultimately, the region will be stronger.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 10):
Given the airfield expansion opportunity, technology integration planned and the removal of DL any study done would be innnacurate at this point unless it was done in the last few months.

The study was iniated almost immediatly after (and because) DL announced they would dehub at DFW. And technology improvements?? When was the last time the FAA implemented any airport/opperational improvement project on-time and with expected capability?

I suppose every airport study is invalid after 6 months?

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
Due to WN operating out of a facility that was supposed to be closed down 30 years ago, they are benefitting from lower costs that have helped them grow from nobody to super LCC.

What are you talking about? WN hasn't grown out of DAL since 1981, and have been shrinking their presence in the last few years. DAL is holiding WN back, and they are moving aircraft out of DAL to more lucrative markets.

DAL is dropping rapidly from WN's top stations, and will continue to do so if the Wright Ammendment is not dropped.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3888 times:

When was the last time the FAA implemented any airport/opperational improvement project on-time and with expected capability?

The equipment in question is available now and due for install in late 2007. And the kind of study that is valid on these issues cannot be done that quickly. Long term studies done on DFW have revealed that even with DL, the new systems and airport capacity is more than enough to absorb the operations at DAL.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3829 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 13):

The equipment in question is available now and due for install in late 2007

Does it overcome the inherent geograpical realities of DFW airport? Namely the long taxi distances that would throw a wrench into WN's schedueling and turn-around times?


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3797 times:

>>>Does it overcome the inherent geograpical realities of DFW airport? Namely the long taxi distances that would throw a wrench into WN's schedueling and turn-around times?

Not only that, but does it consider the increased costs to Southwest of having to hop aircraft back and forth between DFW and DAL for maintenance, or is Southwest supposed to abandon all that expensive infrastructure at DAL and re-create it at DFW?

Yes, yes, I know Braniff (v1.0) use to hop aircraft over after the move to DFW in 1974. During the deregulation years up until 1978 or so, they could pass those costs to consumers. After deregulation, they were less able to, and it was still a cost to their business, which went under in 1982.

This is -not- to say that having to ferry aircraft between DFW and DAL and back is solely what killed Braniff, as there were a wide variety of factors. The point I'm trying to make is that in the post-deregulation world, everything has to make sense as far as costs are concerned. The costs associated with the hangar replacement/ferrying issue is just one of the reasons that Southwest doesn't seem to feel that it makes economic sense to operate at DFW, and it's Southwest's right as a business to make business decisions.


User currently offlineTom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 33
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3774 times:

Quoting Aloha73g (Reply 3):
I read somehwhere that DFW's airlines (AA) get to share in the airport's profits, btu also have to make payments if it loses money.

On the right track, but not quite correct. If the airport makes a profit during a certain year, that profit is then credited back to the airlines (those that have signed leases at the airport) for use during the following year. Conversely, if there is a shortfall during a specific year, that shortfall will be made up by adding it to airlines' charges the following year.

Tom at MSY



"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
User currently onlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4763 posts, RR: 44
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3749 times:

still say the hell with Southwest - they wanna fly further from Dallas do it from DFW....


Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineN77014 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3748 times:

What should really be asked is how the Wright Amendment got passed without violating interstate commerce laws in the first place?

User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3739 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 17):
still say the hell with Southwest - they wanna fly further from Dallas do it from DFW....

I say the hell with Dallas, Ft. Worth, DFW, American, and all the supporters of the Wrong Amendment. Why can't DFW and DAL exist like HOU and IAH?



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineTom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 33
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3726 times:

Quoting N77014 (Reply 18):
is how the Wright Amendment got passed without violating interstate commerce laws in the first place?

That has been my argument all along. Not only does the WA hamper airline growth and competition in the DFW metroplex, it's inherently illegal.

Tom at MSY



"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
User currently onlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4763 posts, RR: 44
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3688 times:

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 19):
I say the hell with Dallas, Ft. Worth, DFW, American, and all the supporters of the Wrong Amendment. Why can't DFW and DAL exist like HOU and IAH?

cuz an agreement was made and law signed that saw for the closure of LUV after a while....LUV and WN didn't adhere to that law - therefore let them suffer...



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3672 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 21):

cuz an agreement was made and law signed that saw for the closure of LUV after a while

LUV is the stockticker for Southwest Airlines ( IATA code: WN )

DAL is the abbreviation for Dallas Love Field Airport


User currently offlineMD95 From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3668 times:

Dfwrevolution said

Quote:
What are you talking about? WN hasn't grown out of DAL since 1981, and have been shrinking their presence in the last few years. DAL is holiding WN back, and they are moving aircraft out of DAL to more lucrative markets.

Right, if it will continue that way it is not necessary anymore to talk about the Wright Amendment. WN will leave DAL. But if they want to tap North Texas market they have to move to DFW and compete with AAL.



dario
User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4391 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3661 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Thread starter):
In the end, this is an AA and Southwest fight.

They are not allowed to fight on a level playing field due to the Wright Amendment, so it is more than that. It is a captivating legal issue.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
25 ExFATboy : Well, actually it's not germain to the entire United States, which is exactly why Wright should be repealed and the people of the Metroplex left to h
26 OPNLguy : >>>cuz an agreement was made and law signed that saw for the closure of LUV after a while....LUV and WN didn't adhere to that law - therefore let them
27 B744F : Isnt it ironic that most of the free-marketeers are actually supporting a law which tries to limit the free market?
28 Drerx7 : Its Dallasite.
29 DfwRevolution : You misunderstand. WN will never leave DAL unless Laura Miller pulls a Megis Field, the probability of which is slim to none. They will, however, tri
30 ContinentalFan : Congress has "plenary" powers to regulate interstate commerce under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution. This includes what you can't do (e.g. Wr
31 ExFATboy : Thanks! *notes for future reference*
32 DAYflyer : Sure is. Solves many a problem. You are correct that it is a thinly veiled AA vs WN fight and I bet WN wins it for the very reason above-more runways
33 Boeing7E7 : All this talk about "Herb Kelleher finding a loophole" makes it sound like Southwest employed some shyster lawyer trick to avoid moving to DFW. The re
34 Adh214 : The Wright Amendment is problematic for cities outside of North Texas because it constrains affordable travel by 7 million North Texans to cities beyo
35 Texdravid : Whatever your position on the Wright Amendment, please don't call DFW AA's "global hub". Global hub should be reserved for airports like JFK, ORD, LH
36 Northwestair : I agree with this staement, I think it is stupid that you can't atlease buy a tkt DAL-HOU-LAS or something similar. Don't worry about opening DAL to
37 N1120A : Sure, WN can make a profit anywhere, that doesn't mean they should incurr massive cost to move Actually, WN was operating at DAL well before DFW open
38 Sccutler : False. Utter hogwash. DAL is a vitally important airport without regard to what WN does or does not do. Closing Love Field has never been a viable op
39 Post contains links OPNLguy : There's an article in today's 6/2 Fort Worth paper about an -independent- study on the effect of airfare prices with Wright gone... http://www.dfw.com
40 ExFATboy : Ah, but that's my point. Only DAL is regulated on this basis, and there's no justification for this other than blatant protectionism of DFW and AA. W
41 Cjpark : SWA was only allowed to stay at DAL because it was not an intra state airline regulated by the CAB. The city of Dallas let SWA continue to operate out
42 PHLBOS : In most of the airlines (DL being the main exception when it had a hub at DFW) you just listed, competition against AA only exists because DFW is a s
43 Post contains images TheGreatChecko : Man I didn't know Dallas/Fort Worth was such a small town. I mean, it must be when you compare it to Miami/Fort Lauderdale (MIA, FLL, and yes, someti
44 FlyingTexan : Only Cancun at this time. Today, they applied for DFW to Puerto Vallarta, Cabo, and Cozumel.
45 Post contains images OPNLguy : >>>SWA was only allowed to stay at DAL because it was not an intra state airline regulated by the CAB. The city of Dallas let SWA continue to operate
46 Cjpark : I am just as amused at your machinations of the truth to support the SWA cause. You must be employed by SWA. All of the talk about how much higher far
47 Swadispatcher : Mike Boyd's group should answer this question of yours later in the week.
48 FlyingTexan : I post my own findings: Quantitative: All fares are last minute one-ways, commonly called ‘walk-ups’ on bare metal plane. DFW-MEM $509 for 1.5 ho
49 Post contains images Milemaster : Well, if they stay at DAL they can use their existing terminal and keep their cost low.
50 Jetdeltamsy : Of course. It's strictly business. Potentially huge business for Southwest. I say "go get 'em."
51 Cactus739 : I don't know how, but I totally misread the original post (too much work, too little sleep)... please disregard my last post...I've suggested it be d
52 N1120A : Again, the law is already in effect. Congress has to repeal it to change it. Remember, with the CAB, Congress managed the entire airline industry. Ac
53 SCXmechanic : Milemaster, I can assure you that the fares paid by the people who fly SWA looks feels and spends just the same as the ones who fly the so called "ful
54 Milemaster : "So called full service carriers" you say? When did Southwest offer: International destinations First/Business Class Power Ports in coach Airport Lou
55 Post contains images Brons2 : If you think WN is like WalMart, you should try flying Ryanair. First of all, the airport is in the middle of nowhere. You've just taken a 1 hour tra
56 SuperDash : We could call DFW the "Death Star" and home of the Empire. Don't try to fly to DFW because the Empire will not AAllow you to compete with them. I fin
57 FlyingTexan : The first and last points are not negligible. First point - They don’t venture outside our borders. But in-between – you know how much that crap
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