Mikefly562 From United States of America, joined Oct 2002, 23 posts, RR: 0 Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6055 times:
It looks like the EU is very upset at Japan...
EU: Sent Japan Letter In March On Lack Of Airbus Sales
Dow Jones International News 06/03/05
author: James Simms
TOKYO (Dow Jones)--European Union Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson sent a letter to the Japanese government in March asking for clarification on why Airbus (ABI.YY), which has over half of the global commercial aircraft market, hasn't sold more planes in the Japanese market, an E.U. official said Friday.
The letter, which also covered other trade issues, follows one sent last year requesting more information on the Japanese government's aid to domestic corporations building around a third of the Boeing Co.'s (BA) new midsize, long-range 787 aircraft.
"We inquired about the purchase or non-purchase by Japanese airlines of Airbus" planes, Silvia Kofler, head of the press section at the European Commission Delegation in Tokyo, told Dow Jones Newswires.
Kofler said she was checking to see if further information on the letter sent to Japanese Economy, Trade and Industry Minister Shoichi Nakagawa could be released. A METI public relations official said the people that would be dealing with such a letter weren't available for comment.
Although Airbus has outsold Boeing in recent years in the rest of the world, Airbus is such a stranger in Japan that its chief commercial officer, John Leahy, has joked that its market share here is zero.
The revelation of another E.U. letter also comes after the transatlantic trade spat escalated earlier this week, with Brussels and Washington taking each other to the World Trade Organization over billions of dollars in subsidies to their respective plane makers.
Tuesday, Mandelson also put Tokyo on notice regarding its assistance of companies, like Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. (7011.TO), building parts of the 787. He said he was refraining from starting a WTO case against Japan, but that Tokyo's actions were on his radar screen.
Kofler said the Japanese government has lined up $1.6 billion in royalty-based financing, adding she didn't have a further breakdown of the aid.
Analysts say the decades-long relationship between Boeing and major Japanese manufacturers has helped the Chicago-based company gain orders here. There's no doubt the firms have a big stake in the success of the 787.
Mitsubishi is designing and building the plane's wing - the first time a company other than Boeing will do so. Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. (7270.TO) will handle design and assembly of the center wing stub, and Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd. (7012.TO) will provide part of the fuselage.
The companies built about 21% of the Boeing 777 airframe and 15% of the 767, but will be responsible for 35% of the 787. Boeing is even billing the 787 as "Made With Japan."
Japan has been the largest single-country international market for Boeing airplanes in dollar value and 78% of the airplanes ordered by Japanese customers have been Boeing products in the past decade, the jet maker says on its Web site. Boeing also says Japanese carriers make their purchasing decisions on purely commercial terms, not because of partial production here.
You said it. They're basically bullying Air India, literally resorting to name calling directed at their competitor Boeing, and now they are "asking questions" about Japanese airlines buying Boeing aircraft, after Japanese airlines have been flying Boeings for 50 years! Are they kidding? Maybe all that R&D aid finally went to their heads!
Boeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5874 times:
You know, I thought Boeing's "Press Release" (more like bitch release) after the Iberia order was low and embarassing, but this is just sad. First A-I, two French users blaming Poland for the EU constitution failure because of the F-16 purchase and rumors that LOT bought 787s, and then this!? What is going on over there?
I guess all big companies go through phases like this, but jeez.
Mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25556 posts, RR: 86
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5856 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 7): You said it. They're basically bullying Air India, literally resorting to name calling directed at their competitor Boeing, and now they are "asking questions" about Japanese airlines buying Boeing aircraft, after Japanese airlines have been flying Boeings for 50 years! Are they kidding? Maybe all that R&D aid finally went to their heads!
You need a world view. Basically, the EU is doing what the US does: You want us to buy from you? You need to buy some stuff from us.
I guess you don't remember what happened when EL AL chose Airbus.
Leskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5816 times:
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 4): Ahh now we know how Europe is going to do business. If they win then they say "We're great and we're the best" If they don't win then they (cry) (hissyfit)
Well... some in Europe learnt from the best in that regard...
Nonetheless - I really can't grasp what the EU is trying to achieve by this; it's really not like the Japanese government is, after receiving this letter, going to go to their airlines and say "Hey, folks, we just realized that you haven't been buying any Airbusses - change that immediately!".
At best, if this letter hadn't come out into the public, they'd have probably received a letter back saying "The airlines told us that Boeing made better overall offers"...
But that best option is gone now - the letter has leaked...
... and the EU has once again made certain that it looks like nothing more than a sore loser.
I'm very pro-EU - but some people in Brussels (and elsewhere) must finally realize one simple fact: the EU is not, I repeat: NOT, entitled to anything.
If they want market share, they have to offer something that the customers not only want, but also at a price and at conditions that the customer wants.
Has nothing to do with this letter - it was sent by the EU, not Airbus. And, no, the EU and Airbus are not the same... just thought I'd add that, because some people around here seem to be incapable of seeing the difference...
Hoya From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 416 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5754 times:
Quoting Leskova (Reply 13): And, no, the EU and Airbus are not the same... just thought I'd add that, because some people around here seem to be incapable of seeing the difference...
EADS, which owns 80% of and derives most of its profits from Airbus, is partly owned by the French Government, which is part of the EU. Also, the UK, Germany, France, and Spain (all members of the EU) have loaned/given(depends on how one views the launch aid) significant amounts of money to Airbus, so basically the EU's interests are Airbus' interests. The two are directly linked.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5722 times:
I find this new approach by Airbus very odd, and this approach is creating a lot of ill-will......its simply bad business. Boeing and Airbus compete head to head for just about every major airliner order......Airbus in the past years had done extraordinarily well, and, at a certain point, even was outselling Boeing. Not bad for an underdog that no one took seriously 25 years ago - lets not forget that Boeing had the advantage of a huge, established customer base.
In the past months, Boeing has had a very good run, landing some very important and very huge deals, good for Boeing! Airbus' response has been unprofessional......acting like a spoiled child. I really dont think that Airbus is making a lot of friends in India and Japan at the moment. Competiton is difficult, you win some, you lose some, and you move along to the next round....does Airbus think that after sending this letter to the Japanese government, the Japanese trade minister will call up ANA and JAL and ask them to order 40 or 50 A380s to get Airbus off his back?
Of course, there is always a lot of behind the scenes politics associated with airliner orders, airliners are expensive, the manufacture of airlines creates jobs, lots of money is involved, and politicians take notice and get involved. Is it right? Probably not. Does it happen? Of course it does. But this very vocal approach of Airbus, attacking and challenging orders that go to Boeing is not going to fly well with the world community.
Yes, the Japanese airlines have a primarily Boeing fleet, the question is.....so what?
I don't care what you say about the U.S., Israel, Taiwan, or whatever, I cannot remember a single time -- ever -- at which point either Boeing and/or the U.S. government have basically been fighting with so many different airlines and/or countries about aircraft orders as Airbus is right now. Airbus is so pissed off because they thought that with the state aid, they would never lose their top spot and be able to undersell Boeing at every turn because they could afford to. Well, guess what, Boeing got competitive and Boeing's fighting back with products that customers want and the market demands. And they're winning, and Airbus hates it, and thus the pissing match we see going on right now with, among others, Air India, JAL, ANA, the Indian government, the Japanese government, etc.
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12564 posts, RR: 35
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5644 times:
I have to say that while I'm normally a strong supporter of Airbus, I think their behaviour - not just towards LOT (heavy pressure to favour 350 over 787, although LO clearly prefers 787) and Air India/AI Exprfess - but generally, has been poor. Maybe Boeing and the US does the same, but there's no finesse. I agree that Japan is likely to become an Airbus free zone within the next few years (NH 32Xs and JL AB6s going?), but going public is very bad strategy, particularly as far as Asia is concerned. Loss of face and embarrassment are big issues there; Boeing seems to understand that. That said, Japan will want to maintain good relations with Europe, so perhaps something will be done to "encourage" one of the Japanese carriers to buy Airbuses ... JAL 380s, perhaps?
Mind you, I think the best way to teach Airbus a lesson is that when they win big orders at Paris, from EK or whoever, Air India should write to those airlines and get them to change their minds. See how Airbus likes THAT!! )
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5642 times:
Quoting Mariner (Reply 11): I guess you don't remember what happened when EL AL chose Airbus.
Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12): The US gives Israel a few billion in "aid" money every year, so they should buy US. It isn't the same arguement, unless the EU finances Japan (if so then I will stand corrected )
The US gives plenty of aid to other countries, who aren't pressured to buy US jets more or less exclusively. Egypt for example. Israel (and Taiwan) get the pressure because the US sticks its neck out for them when it is not in the US commercial interests to do so.
As for Japan, McDD was never as successful as Boeing, especially during the 80s and 90s as it got pushed out by Boeing. Clearly Boeing knew something about how to succeed in Japan. Whether that is because they had superior products or superior relationships is for you to decide.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
Daedaeg From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5624 times:
Boeing and Japanese industry and even greater extent the US and Japan historically have a very close relationship. I think the EU is simply trying to find out what the secret is in this close relationship. The EU trade rep, in my opinion is doing what the European tax payers pay him to do. I wish him luck because cracking the Japanese market is going to require more incentives and investment.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5613 times:
Good God, is the EU and Airbus going to bitch like a bunch of woman eternally on PMS every time someone doesn't order some of their damn aircraft?
Quoting Mariner (Reply 17): But that doesn't mean it is the aircraft the airline wants.
Do you mind, Mariner, if I laugh my ass off at that statement?
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18): I find this new approach by Airbus very odd, and this approach is creating a lot of ill-will......
I agree, and if they keep it up, they'll find their market share decreasing, not increasing, as airlines and the nations they're based in get turned off by this crybaby game. First India, now Japan, and it's done nothing to help their sales, has it?
: You can probably throw the US in there too. Also, sounds like they are not pleased as punch with the peeps who wrote the EU constitution either! I ca
: Since the EU is also giving developement aid to Poland and the rest of recent Central European entries (albeit on a somewhat smaller scale) would the
: Laugh away. But then tell me that El Al did not want to buy (or lease, if you're going to be pedantic) some Airbus aricraft. http://www.bizjournals.c
: MarcoT - your comment is confusing to me, are you saying that the EU should be able to put pressure on LOT to buy Airbus because of the aid the EU pro
: That's right Mariner, and the US buys more Japanese products than the EU.
: Oh, the avalanche of self-righteous hipocrytes! The existence of hidden barriers and de facto protectionism in Japan's internal market has always been
: Yes. I agree. I don't have a problem with all this. I am all in favor of the Japanese buying Boeing. I don't even ask that it be the right aircraft f
: This is just embarrassing. Our governments should mind their own business, not ours or anyone else's.
: Japan makes up to 1/2 of the pieces of a Boeing Jet. They make only a token part of Airbus, who wants to keep a majority of the work in the EU. Japan
: MarcoT - perhaps it is a language barrier, but I do not understand what you are talking about One reason that Japan buys Boeing, apart from the fact t
: They have learned from Boeing and the good ole Us of A
: It's odd that I can't find a single thing about this online... can someone please provide a link?
: That these barriers exist is not in doubt, though they have weakened over the years as the Japanese have found that they now have to compete with the
: ....big difference that no one seems to have pointed out yet (forgive me if someone has) is that LY was state-owned at the time, whereas many other s
: No. I'm just asking if you think that LOT 'should' do so, since you stated that 'EL AL should buy Boeing etc. etc.' Marco
: Yes, as a matter of fact I do, esp. given that Poland bought F16's. If Poland wants to join the EU, and if LOT is state-owned, then I think LOT should
: They may decide it is worth it. Or there may be considerably more to this than meets the eye. There may be political ramifications. After all, if the
: LOL, I would love to see the faces on the geniuses who came up with the idea of "let's piss off Air India and the Indian Government" and then wonder
: Since private ownership of airlines is a relatively new phenomena in many countries, I would expect many of the countries that received US aid have s
: I think that you answered your own question - Air Canada flies a large A32X fleet and, atleast for now, has the A330/340 in its fleet - how can Airbu
: Air India operates Airbus planes as well, specifically a large fleet of A310s. They aren't going to change IC's narrowbody order as it makes perfect
: you said what I said, but you said it better. Much respect.
: When Airbus get 20% of an aircraft's important components from Japan, then they'll be getting serious business. Until then, they can gab all they want
: Not to nitpick, but I think the first part of that statement India is a difficult place for manufacturers to do business" is just too broad of a gene
: I agree - thanks for the clarification - I was referring to AI and IC.
: Didn't Airbus say a month or so ago they could only hold IC slots for another 3 weeks? Haven't heard of them dropping any yet! Wonder how much longer
: My mistake, I guess I zoned out for a moment, thanks for the correction Atmx2000.
: I think that is what I meant - Airbus may decide it is worth it. That if the process is to be political, then let's go the whole hog. Basically all t
: It often does, but there are gross assymetries. As far as I can tell, the US market is pretty wide open to Chinese manufacturers. But when American (
: See http://www.airliners.net/discussions...neral_aviation/read.main/1255646/6 Airbus is the one who made it political during the original Air India t
: Next up for an angry letter from the EU and/or EADS and/or Airbus: "Hey EK... why do you list the 777 over other aircraft on your fleet webpage? After
: Yeah, so JL can move even further to the brink of financial ruin than the merger with JAS has already brought it. JL and NH are privately-owned carri
: That may be true. I'm not throwing any stones. Given the geo-political situation, Indian may very well have made the right - political - choice for I
: The level of stupidity or gall required for the EU to send such a letter (second one in less than 5 years) is simply astounding. Frankly the EU does n
: We must be reading different letters. Nowhere, in the letter posted by the thread starter, did I read that. I read: But I saw nothing about birthrigh
: Ahem, NO! Unless the EU stated that the money could only be spent on Airbuses (they didn't) then LOT could buy Tupolevs, and all the French can do is
: To summarize why Japanese carriers opt for Boeing: 1. Larger trade imbalance between US & Japan than EU & Japan. 2. NH & JL fleets are dominated by Bo
: Sometimes you have to read between the lines.
: The US has been cozying up to India as well, and has repeatedly said that India and Pakistan should view trilateral relations with the US as a zero-s
: Let's write a new and more accurate summary: 1. Boeing's current and proposed product line does a better job of fulfilling the demands of Japanese ai
: Unless the Japanese airlines buy a lot more 787s, the 787 is probably going to increase the trade deficit if the 787 is very successful and sells 500
: I'm sorry, but it isn't "Airbus and France". Or, if it is, why is Air France buying so many Boeings? Did M. Chirac not offer enough inducements to hi
: Yes, it is France, because they as usual, take the lead in these international negotiations involving Airbus, and certainly did so in the case of the
: Hi Mariner. I've been reading this board for what seems like years. I throw out the occasional post here and there, which is generally regarded as BS
: Wukka, Mariner can't stand that fact that, having sold quality airliners for half a century, that Boeing has never HAD to do what Airbus/the EU (inter
: Then, sorry, but I do not understand the sentence in question. If you are putting it in future terms, them "making" Air India "choose" Airbus is simp
: I can see what you're saying, Mariner, but I think you may be "projecting" some of your own bitterness over recent world events onto Boeing - to whic
: Huh? What bitterness do I have with "recent world events"? cheers mariner
: Thanks for blatantly skipping over my question to you. Is it not worth your time? Just in case you missed it: I'm just wondering why you absolutely re
: AIRBUS can't match BOEING....SIMPLE!!
: Because I don't really see a point in answering. You have already made up your mind, with no evidence from me. But for the heck of it: I am a child o
: Maybe they can in certain aspects, and in certain markets. But if they act like a little baby, they'll drive market away from them, because they've s
: So - in review: (i) I am bitter about recent world events. Yeh, right. (ii) I am biased against Boeing. Yeh, right. (iii) I am defending a crybaby att
: Boy, way to defend your positon, Mariner....not.
: I don't intend to defend my position to you. You have said it is indefensible, so what would be the point? cheers mariner[Edited 2005-06-04 07:50:34]
: I'm going to defend Mariner here. If you troll around the boards enough, you'll realize that calling him an Airbus shill is being disingenuous, and fo
: Many refuse to acknowledge the real truth about Iraq and the others involved !!! http://canadafreepress.com/2005/cover052305.htm http://www.lexn
: Whoa, here we go again. Did I criticize Mr. Bolton's appointment? Did I say appointing him was good or bad? I said he would be tough. Is that not tru
: Oops - sorry if my earlier comment came off as bit harsh, Mariner. I didn’t mean anything by it, or to accuse you personally of anything (at least
: No you did not criticize Bolton . Sorry ! That was a very diplomatic statement . Just trying to make a point . Time for bed.
: No, they don’t. When was the last time the US gov't ever complained to any airline, least of all a nation as a whole, after Boeing lost out on a sa
: President Bush went to war. For the record, I defended President Bush's decision against bitter opposition - and a great deal of anger - from my Brit
: EK response: Dear Airbus/EADS/EU: Thank you for bring to our attention this terrible injustice that we perpetrated against you. Please understand tha
: Uhm, Mariner included links earlier about the El Al deals where exactly that happened. Also, don't assume that everything that happens behind closed
: Bosnia, Kosovo....ring a bell? And all without congressional approval, or even UN approval for that matter. Go figure. And not a peep thereafter. Bul
: At least we agree on something. cheers mariner
: When the EU starts providing India and Japan with billions of dollars of "aid" each and every year, then I suspect you might have a point. Till then
: Airbus executives have publicly stated for years that they aim to have 50% of the market. They have achieved it by having at or above 50% of the world
: Aside from the things that I mentioned above, there is another big reason why Mandelson's letter probably got a very cool reception in Japan. The EU (
: Why? Look at LOT, they want Boeing but are more and more forced to commit to Airbus....... AFAIK Mr. Bolton is not really welcome in the UN. Even in
: And specifically what position do you hold within the management team of LOT to have such precise information about it? Regards, Frank
: While others continue to rant about BS that is tangential AT BEST, I'll repost a snippet from an earliest post in the hope of setting things straight
: Amazing at what 44million per day in aid buys these days. In addition Mariner Europe has not been exactly kind toward Jews recently. Check how many l
: So childish as G W Bush letters to Polish Prime Minister insisting on buying 787
: It seems to me that Airbus is trying to discredit the Boeing orders so they attacked countries like Japan and India. If there was anything about the
: With a WTO case brewing between the US and EU, I'm not at all surprised that such a letter exists. I suspect the EU is trying to determine whether Jap
: Don't believe everything you see on TV or read on the internet. Well said, but I think for Chirac and Saddam it should really be
: Europe is extremely beautiful and one of the most unigue and cultured parts of the world . Unforturnately , politicians from France hate the US . And
: I am always surprised to see how the Boeing-Airbus / US-EU trade war gets so many people going. Patriotism may be good on both sides for certain thing
: Can the thread be locked after this most sensible post? Regards, Michael
: All I can say is.... Are you serious? This sounds far too similar to primary school childern arguing over why you aren't buying their lemonade.
: Waaaaah......Waaaaaah. Get off it Airbus. While I have a great deal of respect for both aircraft manufacturers, I'm getting a little tired of this bul