Squirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2300 times:
One airline that will not arrive at Pittsburgh International Airport anytime soon is the much-desired JetBlue Airways.
The New York-based low-fare airline said Thursday it won't start service at Pittsburgh International this year or next
"Pittsburgh's not going to happen soon," JetBlue spokesman Todd Burke said. "Certainly, it will not happen this year, and I don't think we even see it happening next year."
The Allegheny County Airport Authority has targeted JetBlue as one of its most desired airlines for new service at Pittsburgh International. The possibility of JetBlue expanding to Pittsburgh has been the topic of much speculation by regional officials, including authority Executive Director Kent George.
I LOVE THIS PART RIGHT HERE
George said he isn't surprised by JetBlue's statement.
"Unfortunately, the possibility of JetBlue coming here has received too much (media) coverage," he said. "An airline will not tell other airlines or let out when they intend to enter a market."
George said the authority will continue lobbying JetBlue, and he hopes the airline will continue looking at Pittsburgh.
"We have a market in Pittsburgh that will be served," George said. "We hope JetBlue will be one of the carriers that will serve it."
JetBlue says it has some interest in beginning service to Pittsburgh. But, for now, it has more interest elsewhere.
"It's not at the top of the list," Burke said. "But it is on the list."
The airline plans to add one more destination this year, Burke said. JetBlue already has added Portland, Ore., Burbank, Calif., and Ponce, Puerto Rico.
Interesting. With the EMB-190's I expected further additional cities. In fact, four new cities for 2005 is exactly half my expectation. It appears B6 has enough demand to focus on "point to point" in 2005.
Due to PIT's weak economy, I'm not surprised they weren't chosen. I'd be curious to know what cities top B6's list. We're obviously not going to find out until it happens (that info is just too valuable.)
With the talk about the midwest *finally* emerging again economically, I'm wondering if there is enough demand for B6 to expand in the "mid market." But I'm not betting on it. I'm equally divided between their next city being in the Caribbean, Canada, or the eastern seaboard. (I think we've had the west coast expansion for the year.) Although my last trip to Mexico suggests that market has growth potential.
N77014 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1899 times:
With WN moving into PIT, I don't see major plans for B6 to get into the market anytime soon. Also, the point about the weak economy in the area holds true. PIT is not a fast growing sunbelt city with affordable housing and varied industries. I think its days as a major hub are over.
Tornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1769 times:
Quoting N77014 (Reply 6): PIT is not a fast growing sunbelt city with affordable housing and varied industries.
False, oh false you are. True, we're definitely not a sunbelt city... one of the more cloudy cities in the US as a matter of fact. However, our housing is some of the MOST affordable in the nation, and areas just N of PIT are rather quickly growing. Research it a little if you think you have support for your argument, but I'm not gonna waste the time to do it here when I know I'm right. Since I live here, and have taken courses that showed such topics, you can come prove me wrong if you believe yourself. And as for varied industries... I love how non-Pittsburghers think we're still nothing but the Steel City. Pittsburgh is becoming a bio-tech city. I know that's hard for the nay-sayers to believe, but the facts are there. Bayer Pharmaceuticals for one, Milan a bit down the road in MGW, etc. That doesn't mean we need a hub here, but I think there are some markets definitely not being realized at this point since the downfall of US. So before you go and make an assumption about Pittsburgh's economy just because it sounds like it makes sense, you might want to watch where you're going.
However I've said it before though and I'll say it again, WN hasn't done much for PIT except make an Air-turnpike now to PHL and MDW... otherwise they're no cheaper than the other players... and the flights are too limited... and B6 wouldn't do much better most likely.
Cloudpath From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1712 times:
When is everyone going to wake up and realize that PIT's days as a major hub or just a major city with non-stop flights for that matter are over. It is a dog with flees...Admittedly, the airmall is nice but the Pittsburgh economy cannot support a Hub with so many non-stops...period! The media in Pittsburgh will jump on anything that is anti-US, the same for Philly.
N77014 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1703 times:
Agreed. Part of the reason US decided to knock off their hub in PIT was for the aformentioned reasons...it simply is not a growth market. While the local economy may have diversified, it does not have enough to justify another major airline building a hub there.
Three states (CA, TX, FL) will account for nearly half of the population growth in the nation for the next twenty years. Last I checked, PIT was nowhere near those states.
Tornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1677 times:
Quoting N77014 (Reply 10):
Three states (CA, TX, FL) will account for nearly half of the population growth in the nation for the next twenty years. Last I checked, PIT was nowhere near those states.
Neither is CLT, PHL, DTW, MSP, and whole lots of other hubs... for that matter neither is ORD. Also, look at the demographics of the growth in those states. Not exactly high levels of flying in those groups... beyond some occassional leisure bargain-basement fare trips. Highest levels of economic growth are in places more aligned with CLT, or oddities like MHT. Obviously people missed my own concession in this discussion:
the point is that people are becoming about as anti-PIT here on a.net as they are anti-US, anti-UA, and pro-B6/WN and are basically saying PIT should become the next ERI, TOL, DAY, or some other random small city airport served by nothing more than regional hops to the hubs. That's alot of the reason I finally broke down and paid $25 or whatever it was to join this after reading threads here for a year... to try and stop the BS parade being flung at PIT. PIT had it's highest O/D year EVER last year, AFTER the downgrading by US. It's frankly quite disgusting how anti-PIT some on this thread have become lately.
I don't see how a hub in PHL is any more profitable than PIT when they have to spend half their fuel loads at idle on taxiways as "Currently #1358129677 in line for takeoff" because of the lack of runway space. Not to mention as I posted a few days back in another thread, that PHL is such a crappy hub to connect through that I can name dozens of former US customers (including a platinum Div. Miles member who hasn't flown US in over a year because of it) in other areas of the country (RDU, CMH, ABE) who refuse to fly US when they have to connect in PHL because of the hoops you have to jump through to get from Express to Mainline and the chronic ground stop delays.
And for B6 to come here... why bother. Most of what they'd serve to PIT through a connection in JFK is what we already have direct to on US/US-Exp as of now. When it all comes down to it, why connect when you can fly direct?
PITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2692 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1579 times:
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 8): False, oh false you are. True, we're definitely not a sunbelt city... one of the more cloudy cities in the US as a matter of fact. However, our housing is some of the MOST affordable in the nation, and areas just N of PIT are rather quickly growing. Research it a little if you think you have support for your argument, but I'm not gonna waste the time to do it here when I know I'm right. Since I live here, and have taken courses that showed such topics, you can come prove me wrong if you believe yourself. And as for varied industries... I love how non-Pittsburghers think we're still nothing but the Steel City. Pittsburgh is becoming a bio-tech city. I know that's hard for the nay-sayers to believe, but the facts are there. Bayer Pharmaceuticals for one, Milan a bit down the road in MGW, etc. That doesn't mean we need a hub here, but I think there are some markets definitely not being realized at this point since the downfall of US. So before you go and make an assumption about Pittsburgh's economy just because it sounds like it makes sense, you might want to watch where you're going.
Pittsburgh's economy is in the toilet, plain and simple. It always will be as long as voters continue to put the same big government politicans into office. It is the only major urban area losing population. That's why housing is so affordable. Yes, the N. Hills are growing, but the other 3 sectors are shrinking. Those are the facts.
The only thing that ever made Pittsburgh an economic powerhouse back in the day was its proximity to natural resources, which caused the steel industry to be located here. The steel industry went overseas in the early 1980's, but when it came back to the US as a more clean and efficient industry, it certainly didn't come back to Pgh. Pgh's economy didn't budge during the economic boom of the late 80's, mid 90's, and it isn't budging during this recovery either.
I've lived here since 1983. As an airline employee with reciprocal travel priveleges on about 50 airlines worldwide, I've been able to travel everywhere from Bangor to Bangkok. I've seen booming cities. Pittsburgh is not one of them.
However, I do think there is room for more flights by Southwest, and jetBlue will enter the market at some point. But that's about it. Unfortunately, county officials were too busy trying to waste money on US Airways, when they should have been trying to grow the air cargo operations. But wait, Moon township didn't want air cargo on the readily available space of the old terminal. "Too much noise" was the complaint. More local government beauracracy driving this region backwards.
Indy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4368 posts, RR: 9 Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1517 times:
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 11): Neither is CLT, PHL, DTW, MSP, and whole lots of other hubs... for that matter neither is ORD
PHL and DTW have massive local markets to feed off of. It doesn't matter if they ever grow an additional person. They are HUGE. That pretty much kills that part of the debate.
CLT has a midsize market right now but has a booming population. Right now it is about PIT size but where PIT is going nowhere in population CLT is taking off.
MSP is the HQ of a major airline and they have a geographic monopoly.
PIT doesn't have a geographic monopoly. They don't have a massive market to feed off of. They don't have a booming population center. Those are three pretty big things going against them. That pretty much limits O&D. And PIT is a bit too far to steal passengers from PHL. Other places like Cleveland, Columbus, Baltimore and Cincinnati are over 2 hours drive time so that makes taking business from them unlikely.
PrimetimeDC9 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1486 times:
i also take offense to the anti-pittsburgh talk on this post. i travel all across the country for a marketing company, and have yet to find a place that is as livable and personable as pittsburgh is. it is in my opinion one of the best cities in this country, and anyone who disagrees is misinformed. i am glad that it is a hidden treasure and has a bad rap in some ways because part of its charm is its hidden beauty and smaller urban population. i do however take offense to some of the uneducated remarks that some of these people are leaving. Pittsburghers are some of the most unselfish, loyal people in the nation, and the city is very accessable and accomodating. In addition there is no need to deal with mass crowds, traffic, etc that you would find in some of the more jam packed cities in "better" locations. i spent nine months in florida, alabama, north carolina, new orleans, new york, atlanta, and i could not wait until i got back. until you have experienced pittsburgh, please don't critisize, if you have been here and don't like it then you have gone to the wrong places, i know this place is underestimated, and i feel sorry for those who haven't experienced it. look at quality of living survays, asthetic surveys, etc, pittsburgh always seems to get ranked well, and i don't think its because locals are writing the colums, excuse the length, but this is frustrating for me to see on this post.
PITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2692 posts, RR: 3 Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1463 times:
PrimetimeDC9 - Plz don't be too offended, I agree with everything you said about the city. It is a great place to be from. I went away for college and craved to come back (hence my username). But the heart of this topic is the city's economy, and it's effect on the airport. In this area, the city simply is not up to par with its competitors, and therefor is at a disadvantage when trying to get new air service.
AGC525 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 989 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1417 times:
Primetime - Good post, thank you.
I think where some people are confused about Pittsburgh's financial situation is that the actual city itself is a financial mess, but the surrounding counties and areas are quite the opposite.
Most areas in fact where the mighty steel mills were are now mostly converted over now to growing buisness, entertainment, and nightlife spots. I'm glad to see the 180 here in Pittsburgh over the last two decades. PIT deserves all it can get.
[Edited 2005-06-06 05:48:17]
American Aviation: From Kitty Hawk to the Moon in 66 years!
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31122 posts, RR: 74 Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1410 times:
Quoting PrimetimeDC9 (Reply 15): i travel all across the country for a marketing company, and have yet to find a place that is as livable and personable as pittsburgh is. it is in my opinion one of the best cities in this country, and anyone who disagrees is misinformed.
Just because you may enjoy a city doesn't mean everyone else has too. I've spent time in Pittsburgh and found the place depressing. That's my opinion, and it's not changing. Nice people, but depressing place.
Tornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1444 times:
I wasn't trying to say PIT is as big as ORD, DTW, etc... just trying to debunk the "3 biggest states are CA, FL, and TX" theory. The reason those states are going to be so overwhelmingly big, plain and simple, is the influx of foreign population and the higher birth-rates that these groups have compared to boring middle-class suburban types. I'm not making a racist comment by any means, just stating a fact. I have no problem with immigrants, it wasn't even 100 years ago that my family came from Europe as well. Speaking of Europe, their birth rates are so low that the continent is losing population as a whole. So as for CA, FL, and TX.. yes they'll be big, but that's VERY irrelevant to PIT, and airline hub operations in general... because the core of American population, and especially the mobile/flying population, is still east of the Mississippi and around 40 degrees north latitude... and will barely budge as time goes on because of the laws of averages. (40th parallel is near the I-70/US 40 corridor.. roughly an IND/DAY/CMH/PIT/PHL line)
You look at US cutting flights in PIT though... ok, drop capacity. But then they, and WN, and other airlines (NW's IND-PHL CRJ service comes to mind) add more flights into the already clusterf*cked mess at Philly... just adding to the delays that hit as soon as a cloud gets in the sky. If you're flying.. let's say from GSO to MHT... two random cities I just picked... John Q. Flyer would rather go to the convenient airport to make his connection, where he won't be hassled by ground stops causing missed connections... taking busses down the apron to connect from regional to mainline, and not having to go through massive crowds. Sure PHL and the others have higher O/D. But when your customers from all the OTHER cities are picking OTHER airlines to avoid big cluster f**ks like PHL (same with ORD too) when their trip can take them to any random city in the US to make a connect, that's when you've taken the Hubbing into large O/D too far. It's not just my "US dicked over PIT" concept that has to me avoiding US now that I moved to ABE. I still fly US when I can connect in PIT or CLT because I think they're still one of the classiest airlines out there (livery, attitudes of flight crews, etc.), and I'm a fan of their vastly varied fleet, but I would avoid PHL no matter which airline was there... be it US, WN now, Airtran, etc the same as I won't fly AA (although they're not even in ABE) or UA if they try to run me through that other disaster area known as ORD, and only fly DL if I can go through CVG to avoid ATL... Why fly through the chronically delayed airports when my business doesn't take me to that city?
Case in point: Let's face it... airfares between most city pairs are within a few dollars of each other due to competition. I fly alot of ABE-IND to see my girlfriend now... everyone is within $10-20 on that route, so I pick based on where I'll have to connect. If I take UA, I get shoved into that mess in ORD, screw that. If I take NW, I get to go to DTW, not bad at all. If I take Delta, CVG or occassionally ATL. Even though CVG's "Let's make a deal" doors in the Comair terminal are weird... it's a nice airport to connect through. CO will send me through CLE... once again not bad, and I'm a bigger fan of ERJ's than CRJs, Avros, and the DC9's, so at this point CO is in the lead, but they also cost about $15 more than the competition... I'm willing to pay that no sweat. US then comes along, having by far the most options, and they will send me through one of the following: PHL, PIT, or just maybe CLT. the ABE-PHL-IND flights are always the cheapest by a few bucks, and have the most options. You also get to fly mainline PHL-IND alot of the time. However, I refuse like the plague to go into PHL. The whole place is a mess, and one way or another you will get screwed, be it your connections from a ground stop, baggage, or something. (US is a perfect 3 for 3 with my g/f's bags in PHL the past 2 months by not getting them to ABE on the same flight as her since I've moved here... 2 times I gave them the benefit of the doubt because she was on a less-than-45 minute connection... thanks to ground stops affecting PHL on days with just OVC and RA- but the 3rd time they had nearly 2 hours) I'll take that US flight through CLT any day, or through PIT no doubt... but they'd need to cut the price by about $50 to entice me into that disaster known as PHL... and like I've said I'm not the only pax with similar sentiments... and eventually this is going to catch up to US down there in Filthadelphia. Take my aforementioned girlfriend for example too now... despite being damn near hitting reward levels on US' Dividend Miles, she has officially boycotted the whole company, because of her sour experiences at PHL. You can go for all the O/D you want in PHL, the people who live there just about HAVE to fly there unless they take the 90 minute drive to ABE and then pay $100+ more... but when the REST of your routes that connect in PHL are losing pax because the place is so well reknown for poor service and experiences... are you really gaining anything compared to when you were in PIT with the smaller O/D??
Let's face it... those 3 10/28's at PIT all with ILS's weren't going to lend themselves to ground delays unless the wx is REALLY bad... the facility is MUCH nicer (no bus rides for connections), not as cramped, single security point. These are the things the people who are O/D-ing in any random 2 points on the US system map and having to connect SOMEWHERE want... and the bread and butter of US are ALL those other cities combined... not PHL stand alone. They're starting to put more and more eggs into that PHL bushel basket... and that bushel basket is already bursting at the seams... and made of rotten wood.
Indy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4368 posts, RR: 9 Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1379 times:
I connected in PHL a few years back on my way to Europe. I will say it was not a pleasant experience. That was more because we were delayed by about an hour AFTER we got on a plane and the dang thing had a busted APU so the air didn't work and it was HOT. Don't recall if any drinks were served while we sat there in the heat. It didn't really matter.
The place is big. I was more impressed with the monitors around the airport that were covered with nothing but US Airways flights. Plus I met someone there in between flights so it wasn't as painful as it could have been. Security was a nightmare. I'll never go outside of security again between flights.
When I connect I really want to be in a position where I can be in the terminal shortly after landing. I get really anxious just sitting there waiting 15+ minutes to taxi. That was one thing I wasn't too fond of about DTW but the facility itself made up for the long taxi. If it wasn't for the weird design of MCI I'd say it would be a good candidate for connecting because of the terminal being in between the runways and each runway being pretty tight up to the tarmac.
I think places like PIT, IND & MCI have an edge when it comes to low cost airlines because they can shorten turnaround times. Looking at the image of PIT it must be one of the easiest airports to connect in. Doesn't look like you are more than a 5 minute walk to any point in the terminal.
Tornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1342 times:
Quoting Indy (Reply 20): Doesn't look like you are more than a 5 minute walk to any point in the terminal.
IF we ever see a day when E-concourse opens up again (It was strictly US-X props, mainly the Colgan SF-340s and Air Midwest B1900's) that could take about 10 minutes... you had to ride the people mover... but you never left the secure area (I once ran from the last gate in E, to the last gate in B, to go MGW-PIT-MHT when MHT was still mainline... and did it in 6 minutes after the MGW flight was 45 late due to a storm... but that was literally running at sprint speed and that's the longest possible run in the entire airport). But in the main Airside terminal where ALL flights go today, I would assume even an elderly person could make it in 5 minutes max for ANY connection. Moving sidewalks galore, and because of the X-layout the walks are short. That was one thing I'm not 100% thrilled with at DTW... I've heard that terminal is actually 1.3 miles long (can anyone confirm), but it's still not bad. Philly is not really that much bigger compared to PIT gate-wise even... but the hikes in it can take up to 20 minutes.