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TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?  
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4641 times:

Will TZ and WN merge? They could call themselves TWNZ (twins?), LOL.

This gets WN into the bigger US Military Contracts, and a little fleet diversification. It also gets them into DFW and around the Wright Admendment, while at the same time maintianing their hebs at DAL and MDW.

This gives TZ the stability (and cash) they need.

It gives both airlines the mid section of the US.

What are the down sides of such a merger?

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4639 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Thread starter):
It also gets them into DFW and around the Wright Admendment, while at the same time maintianing their hebs at DAL and MDW.

They are currently trying to avoid that like the plauge, doing so would literally give ammunition to DFW to use against themselves. WN has made a point not to expand the WN/TZ codeshare to DFW because they do not want to "confuse" the issue one bit.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Thread starter):
Will TZ and WN merge?

I think they will maintain their current status for the time being. If ATA were to completly collapse, WN would likely pick-up certain portions of their domestic opperations only. It doesn't suit them to add x-number of 757 at this time.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4610 times:

But, without WN's help, TZ will not be able to get the B-763s or B-742s they want. Unless they have financial help somewhere else.

User currently offlineFlypdx From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 636 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4583 times:

No I don't see this coming..It really just doesn't make sense. Southwest is getting enough done with the codeshare, and doesn't need to buy the money troubled airline..

User currently offline1millionflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4583 times:

WN Will NEVER acquire another airline completely...mark my words on this

User currently offlineWnsocal From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4566 times:

Quoting 1millionflyer (Reply 4):
WN Will NEVER acquire another airline completely

Never is a mighty long time.



Airline Nut
User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4563 times:

Quoting Wnsocal (Reply 5):
Never is a mighty long time.

Yep


User currently offlineAirlinerfreak From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4555 times:

My bets are that it will never happen. Though US and America West got away with it I do not think that TZ and WN would. Also WN would be making a big mistake by acquiring TZ!!

User currently offlineLN-MOW From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1908 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4527 times:

Not gonna happen. WN already has a good chunk of the domestic military charters, they don't nees ATA's 'help' to get more.

767's seems to be hard to get. ATA now has booked time for two L-1011 D-checks in England, according to the Yahoo-board ...



- I am LN-MOW, and I approve this message.
User currently offlineAeroman62 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4495 times:

WN has acquired, and in one case, absorbed the aircraft and operations of two airlines, namely Muse Air and Morris Air. The great thing about WN is that they'll do what makes sense to make money at any juncture in time, the TZ code share is something no one could have imagined 3 years ago.

User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4481 times:

I know that Morris especially was a large acquisition, but they were an all 733 fleet. TZ has no fleet commonality.

User currently offlineN77014 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4472 times:

Morris Air was basically a shell; leased everything, complementary route system, and a very small work force that was easily integrated into WN.

TZ, on the other hand, is really two airlines in one, with a rather militant union and many years in existence. On paper, it would not be a good match.


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5843 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4463 times:

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 10):
but they were an all 733 fleet

It wasn't just aircraft. Morris also was originally set up closely following the Southwest model. There were boarding cards instead of seat assignments, etc. Lots of commonality that made that merger a little easier.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4459 times:

How about UPS and FeDex, and call it FedUp.

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4452 times:

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 10):
I know that Morris especially was a large acquisition, but they were an all 733 fleet. TZ has no fleet commonality.

They opperate 737-800, which have full cockpit commonality with the 737NG opperated by WN. TZ will also begin opperating "classic" 737 this fall. The only lack of commonality is their 757 fleet...

Quoting Airlinerfreak (Reply 7):
Also WN would be making a big mistake by acquiring TZ!!

For what reason?

Quoting 1millionflyer (Reply 4):
WN Will NEVER acquire another airline completely...mark my words on this

And they will never protest the Wright Ammendment  Yeah sure


User currently offlineN77014 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4442 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 10):
I know that Morris especially was a large acquisition, but they were an all 733 fleet. TZ has no fleet commonality.

They opperate 737-800, which have full cockpit commonality with the 737NG opperated by WN. TZ will also begin opperating "classic" 737 this fall. The only lack of commonality is their 757 fleet...

Quoting Airlinerfreak (Reply 7):
Also WN would be making a big mistake by acquiring TZ!!

For what reason?

Quoting 1millionflyer (Reply 4):


WN Will NEVER acquire another airline completely...mark my words on this

And they will never protest the Wright Ammendment

Buying an airline merely to acquire common aircraft is a poor business reason. There has to be inherent value, as what Morris offered to WN when they bought them.

TZ, as I pointed out earlier, offers too many dissimilarities to WN for a merger. Perhaps the closest they would come would be as a separate division, as Muse Air was. The issue of merging certificates, routes, seniority lists, fleet types; a real headache.


User currently offlineFlyingTexan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4429 times:

Quoting 1millionflyer (Reply 4):
WN Will NEVER acquire another airline completely...mark my words on this

Don't put anything beyond Southwest.


User currently offlineFlyboyaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4427 times:

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 16):
Don't put anything beyond Southwest.

Exactly! I think WN will have to change in the future to keep competing with other carriers. As they tend to like smaller, less used cities...this can cause a problem in the future when they run out of markets to go in. I dare say they might have to acquire smaller planes that can be used in even smaller markets....like FAT, BFL, EUG, PSP, etc. They do just fine of course with what they have, but in general you have to keep growing to remain competitive.


User currently offlineN77014 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4391 times:

FAT, BFL, and PSP are growing areas. I think the only think keeping WN out right now are terminal facilities.

User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5198 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4441 times:

Look at a map. There are scads of cities WN could serve without changing thier business model. Just off the top of my head:

COS, DSM, MSP/RST, MKE, GRR, DAY, CAE, SAV, FAT, ICT, MEM, GPT, RSW, SWF, ROC, SYR, PWM, BTV, MDT, ABE, RIC, TYS etc...

WN has a ton of long-term growth potential without integrating another airline.



Next up, STL-ATL-MSY-ATL-STL
User currently offlineFlyboyaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4333 times:

Some of those cities don't have enough traffic to support the amount of frequencies WN likes.

Considering how slow they expand, yes they have quite a long time until they need to change things.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4159 times:

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 16):
Don't put anything beyond Southwest.

I agree.  Silly

If WN decides that TZ is part of their business plan, it will happen.  bouncy 

Does WN currently fly to IND? IIRC, that is TZ's HQ and they are the largest airline there?  box 

So, could WN use a presence at IND, or if they are there, would it work for them to be the biggest airline there, like DAL?  scratchchin 


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26718 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 10):
TZ has no fleet commonality.

Not only do the 738s at TZ have cockpit commonality, but also engine commonality.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
The only lack of commonality is their 757 fleet...

Well, the L1011s too Big grin

This much is true. WN is the Debtor in Posession financing provider for TZ. In lay terms, they are putting up the money for TZ to emerge from bankruptcy, much like Retirement Systems of Alabama did with US. In doing this, they have guarenteed themselves a significant stake in ATA Holdings when they emerge from bankruptcy. So, yes, WN will own at least part of TZ



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4851 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4141 times:
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At the Message to the Field a few months ago, I think the one thing stressed with the greatest emphasis was that Southwest has absolutely NO INTEREST in buying/mergin with ATA.


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineSendMEtoLAS From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 66 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4103 times:

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 23):
At the Message to the Field a few months ago, I think the one thing stressed with the greatest emphasis was that Southwest has absolutely NO INTEREST in buying/mergin with ATA.

I agree. It's not going to happen. A merger for WN doesn't make sense, regardless which carrier it is.

I think TZ is the most likely for a merger for WN, but I think the chances of a WN TZ merger is less than %5.

TZ and WN make money off each other. WN is stronger because their FF don't have to go to UA, US, or NW to fly to LGA, DCA, or MSP.

TZ is marketing flights to HA from 3 west coast cities. WN is going to help make their flights successful.


25 N200WN : The Morris workforce was not integrated into WN in the classic sense of the word. All Morris employees had to interview for positions at Southwest an
26 N77014 : And non-union with no merging of seniority issues to worry of.
27 PlaneSmart : If the US-based airline industry unravels through uncontrolled airline failures, WN will undoubetdly prosper through rapid growth. However, if the in
28 FRA2DTW : WN is not going to introduce ALPA-think into their pilot force. Their in-house union works and ALPA's confrontational style, which would be carried ov
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