Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why No 738 Winglets?  
User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1617 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5336 times:

If there is such a cost saving, why are 738s being built without them. I know the airline has to order the winglets, but why not? The savings is supposed to be tremendous, so much so that WN and CO are adding them aftermarket.

Can the airlines not change an order to add the winglets, are they not concerned with fuel costs, can they not afford the initial cost versus the added fuel costs over the life of the aircraft?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © James Rowson



Just one example, but there are many.

M

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineS12PPL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5327 times:

because each airline has to make that choice based on LOTS of facts...like gate space at airports... Sometimes gate space is limited wingtip to wingtip. There are lots of factors to consider.

User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4821 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5327 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I would think the winglets are more useful on longer flights where there is a prolonged cruise, if you are doing a lot of very short trips, there may be less advantage.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21560 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5313 times:

No according to the manufacturer, as they claim they are great no matter what length of flight...

But also the winglets are supposed to cut down on engine power required for takeoff (and thus noise), so this might be a favorable factor for some airlines with greater noise restrictions.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6029 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5293 times:

Keep in mind that the winglets itself adds weight to the aircraft - so before they can really be seen as effective, the cruise have to be long enough, so the fuel saved is greater that the fuel used to carry the winglets around. Also, I do believe that they do cost a bit to (retro-)fit.

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11456 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5268 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
No according to the manufacturer, as they claim they are great no matter what length of flight...

But also the winglets are supposed to cut down on engine power required for takeoff (and thus noise), so this might be a favorable factor for some airlines with greater noise restrictions.

Strange Ikramerica. There is a recommended altitude where winglets are more effective and for short trips, it's probably a minor factor as you take a time to get to the cruise altitude and also to land. Gol (G3) LCC received some 738 without winglets and they operated short trips like CGH-GIG, CGH-CWB, CGH-CNF, BSB-SSA, BSB-CNF, BSB-CGH, POA-CWB. Nowadays with longer flights (EZE-GRU for example), G3 added winglets to its most recent 738 fleet.
Any idea of how much adds in terms of cost the winglets ?

Regards,
Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineCactus739 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2449 posts, RR: 31
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5233 times:

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Thread starter):
The savings is supposed to be tremendous, so much so that WN and CO are adding them aftermarket.

I believe they are actually coming installed on all new 737-700 deliveries for Southwest..



You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
User currently offlineOptionsCLE From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5090 times:

All of Southwests 73G's currently have winglets and all of the factory new planes should be coming installed with them.

The reason that FL didn't get winglets is, indeed, gate space issues at ATL. Like someone said, winglets are only economical on trips above a certain distance in which the fuel savings at cruise are greater than the added fuel consumption due to the increased weight.

-Andrew


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21560 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5073 times:

Both CO and WN are getting them new on the 73G for WN and 738 for CO and retrofitting as well. The 736 has just become available with them from B, but not the 739.

http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/main.htm

You can either increase TOW from many airports, or decrease engine thrust instead, due to better climb out performance. This can cut down on noise, and fuel use, even for short trips.

Also, approach speed can be slower, again reducing thrust required/noise.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineOlympus69 From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 1737 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4990 times:

Westjet is also receiving their -800s with winglets already installed.

User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4023 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4974 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

it makes me wonder if its worth it for WN. With many short hop flights is the fuel savings exceeding the cost of construction and added weight on the aircraft?


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineJe89_w From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 2362 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4947 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Funny how Shanghai Airlines only has one B738 with winglets (one of their first delivered), all their other newer B738s don't have any.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Xiao xiao



User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26691 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4844 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 4):
Keep in mind that the winglets itself adds weight to the aircraft - so before they can really be seen as effective, the cruise have to be long enough,

Except that after sitting on the sidelines for years, short-haul specialist and ultra-tight fisted Ryanair decided to equip all 738s with winglets

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 4):
Also, I do believe that they do cost a bit to (retro-)fit.

900,000-1 million USD

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 6):
I believe they are actually coming installed on all new 737-700 deliveries for Southwest..

They are

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 7):
winglets are only economical on trips above a certain distance in which the fuel savings at cruise are greater than the added fuel consumption due to the increased weight.

Actually, WN has seen savings even on short hauls. This is one of the main reasons FR has decided to add them

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
but not the 739.

They are available, just not certified yet. The 739X will come standard with them

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 10):
it makes me wonder if its worth it for WN.

Um, they decided to equip, when all is said and done, close to 400 aircraft with them, so yes, it is worth it. Apparently they are saving on the line of $500,000 per year, per aircraft with that mod. Can't say so much for fuelmizer



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineBluewave 707 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3152 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4710 times:

-800s with winglets? I have got these shots over the last year of -800s, now coded as 73H. 738 is reserved for non-winglet -800s.

China Eastern has winglets on their -800s ...
http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00301325
and ...
http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00359211

Qantas does as well ...
http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00362691

As does Air Pacific ...
http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00156192

As does ChangAn Airlines ...
http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00303831



"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31702 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4705 times:

If the Cruising time is not long.Why would you want to add to the Weight.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4353 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4597 times:

The winglets also became more attractive now with higher fuel costs. So airlines like Ryanair and Continental who earlier decided to ignore the winglet options are now retrofitting their aircrafts because the costs outweighed the fuel benefits back in say 2000 but not now.


nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineFly_yhm From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 1681 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2290 times:

westjet also has winglets


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andy Vanderheyden




Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
WN: Why No 738, IFE, And More Markets? posted Sun Aug 27 2006 05:51:03 by AirRyan
Why No 738 Logojets At FR? posted Mon Feb 14 2005 00:03:13 by A340600
Why No Winglets For Every 737-700/800? posted Thu Nov 9 2006 23:48:32 by LY777
Why No Winglets On 787! posted Sat Oct 7 2006 20:27:37 by Bringiton
Why No Winglets For The 737-600? posted Tue Jul 11 2006 11:35:41 by LY777
AirTran 737s: Why No Winglets? posted Wed Jul 7 2004 05:24:38 by Flamant15
Why No Winglets On The B777 posted Wed Dec 17 2003 16:18:56 by B747FAN
Boeing 777: Why No Winglets? posted Sun Dec 7 2003 23:04:24 by MEA321
Why No Winglets On DL/AA 738s? posted Mon Aug 4 2003 18:36:55 by JFKTOWERFAN
Why No Winglets On All Aircraft Types? posted Wed Dec 5 2001 21:10:06 by SEVEN_FIFTY7