Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Egyptair: The World's Most Boneheaded Scheduling?  
User currently offlineNYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1387 posts, RR: 10
Posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4448 times:

If someone can please point out the logic to this, I will give you a trophy.

In searching for flights from LCA to CAI, on 6/21, I came upon this madness:

12:20 am Depart Larnaca (LCA)
Arrive Cairo (CAI) 1:30 am Tue 21-Jun
Duration: 1hr 10mn Egyptair 639
Nonstop flight

12:25 am Depart Larnaca (LCA)
Arrive Cairo (CAI) 1:40 am Tue 21-Jun
Duration: 1hr 15mn Egyptair 641
Nonstop flight

12:35 am Depart Larnaca (LCA)
Arrive Cairo (CAI) 1:55 am Tue 21-Jun
Duration: 1hr 20mn Egyptair 643
Nonstop flight


That's three flights in fifteen minutes. And not to mention at utterly inconvenient times, when this is most surely an o/d route for the vast majority of passengers. I'd love to picture a couple racing to LCA to catch a flight: "Oh, honey, we've missed our flight by five minutes. But wait! There are two more flights in the next 10 minutes!" Oh, and of course MS has no flights the following day, and one flight in the evening the day after that, and so on. I know Middle East flight times are notoriously bad, but this is unbelievable.

Another of my favorites, MS flies CAI-SAH a couple of times a week - leaving CAI at 1am, arriving SAH at 4am. Considering there are few onward connection opportunities at SAH, and this too is mostly o/d, why is the timing so bad? In general, CAI is one of those airports that is very quiet during the day, and busy in the middle of the night. I understand when transcon flights depart at odd hours (many flights to Europe from here are at 1-3am), but why short-haul routes to LCA and SAH? This makes planning any trip that requires connecting flights a real headache (see my other thread about TLV-CAI). http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2152804/

Would love to hear any theories/explanations.

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4364 times:

Pure guesswork, but maybe these flight are not really economic, but have to be done for political or other reasons and doing them at such odd hours utilises aircraft that would otherwise be idle between flights to more important destinations.

No idea why 3 flight in 15 miniutes, stuff up?

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2077 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4353 times:

I would say that the slots at these times are cheaper.

Axel



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

This may not be the real reason, but it might have something to do with it:

Hours of business/culture in the Middle East are quite different from those of other places, partly because of midday heat. If you've never experienced 120 + degrees in the middle of the day for hours on end, well, try a drive from Las Vegas to Barstow in August...stop at a rest stop and have a picnic, and you'll have a nice idea of what it's like.

I can't speak to the three flights in a row (charters? special events?) in 15 minutes, but the late hour is not unusual in the middle east.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4148 times:

Quoting NYCFlyer (Thread starter):
If someone can please point out the logic to this, I will give you a trophy.

In searching for flights from LCA to CAI, on 6/21, I came upon this madness:

12:20 am Depart Larnaca (LCA)
Arrive Cairo (CAI) 1:30 am Tue 21-Jun
Duration: 1hr 10mn Egyptair 639
Nonstop flight

12:25 am Depart Larnaca (LCA)
Arrive Cairo (CAI) 1:40 am Tue 21-Jun
Duration: 1hr 15mn Egyptair 641
Nonstop flight

12:35 am Depart Larnaca (LCA)
Arrive Cairo (CAI) 1:55 am Tue 21-Jun
Duration: 1hr 20mn Egyptair 643
Nonstop flight

NYCFlyer, yes at first this may seem strange but if you know the reason it'll all make sence.

The Cypriot-Egyptian market is definitely an interesting one and at first people unfamiliar with its operations would reach similar conclusions to yours (i.e Egyptair: The World's Most Boneheaded Scheduling). Back in 2000 Cypriot travel agents began offering day trips to the Egyptian capital for Cypriots holidaymakers. They would arrive into Cairo early in the morning and tour the city taking in the main tourists sites before taking a late night flight back to Cyprus. Initially this was done on the Paphos-Cairo route and was pioneered by Helios Airways, but the scheme proved so successful that Egyptair and Eurocypria joined in, offering Laranca-Cairo flights too. So as a result on certain days you'll find large numbers of flights arriving from Laranca bringing in Cypriot tourists. The Cypriot aircraft return back to Cyprus and operate other flights while the Egyptian aircraft/airline also operate normal flights. During the evening the flights come back and take the tourists back home after a full day's visit in Cairo.

Egyptair have 'normal' flights operating CAI-LCA and they have flight number MS741. The other flights have the codes MS6XX. In addition some flights stop in SSH on their way to/from LCA/PFO. SSH is very popular with the Cypriots but not for the obvious reason of the 'sun and beach' but thats a whole different ball game we could get into.

If you look at Egyptair's Cairo-Paphos route you'll see the same thing:
MS883 departs CAI at 05:40, arriving into PFO at 06:50 picking up the Cypriot holidaymakers and departing as MS884 at 07:35 to arrive into CAI at an early time of 08:45. The holidaymakers spend a day in the city before returning to the airport to catch MS885 at 21:30, that arrives into PFO at 22:40. MS886 then leaves PFO at 23:30 finally arriving back in CAI at 00:40.

Eurocypria and Helios operate very similar flights every Tuesday using B738s. The flights depart PFO/LCA early, arriving into CAI at around 8am. They then return back to Cyprus to do other flights, then later in the evening (9pm+) they come back to Cairo and pick up the tourists to take them back home. Helios and Eurocypria both have 4 flights each (2 arriving in the morning and 2 in the evening). Also this summer Helios have introduced a second set of flights on Saturdays which is to cater for the increasing number of Cypriots who decided to stay a few days in Cairo rather than just a single day.

This short break has proved to be extremely popular with the Cypriots (and lucrative for MS, Helios and Eurocypria) and now with the Egyptians who have started visiting Cyprus on day trips too.

I hope thats cleared things up NYCFlyer......now how will I be getting my trophy

Quoting NYCFlyer (Thread starter):
I know Middle East flight times are notoriously bad, but this is unbelievable.

Really?

Quoting NYCFlyer (Thread starter):
In general, CAI is one of those airports that is very quiet during the day, and busy in the middle of the night

Not really true. CAI's two teminals are operating at their maximum design capacity which has meant that the authorities have forced operations to be spread out throughout the day. To avoid the late nate rush which was the case in the 90s, the authorites now charge around 4 times more for landings at night then during the day which has forced even more landings during the day.

Try these links...they might help

http://www.cairo-airport.com/flight_departure_result.asp

http://www.cairo-airport.com/flight_arrival_result.asp

Quoting NYCFlyer (Thread starter):
Another of my favorites, MS flies CAI-SAH a couple of times a week - leaving CAI at 1am, arriving SAH at 4am. Considering there are few onward connection opportunities at SAH, and this too is mostly o/d, why is the timing so bad? In general, CAI is one of those airports that is very quiet during the day, and busy in the middle of the night. I understand when transcon flights depart at odd hours (many flights to Europe from here are at 1-3am), but why short-haul routes to LCA and SAH?

I'll just copy and paste what I said in the other thread:

MS's 4x weekly A320 CAI-SAH flights depart Cairo just as the last wave of MS flights arrive from Europe, and arrives back just in time to connect with the early morning services to Europe. I guess the route heavily depends on connecting passengers.

The schedule goes as follows:

MS691 CAI/SAH -2-45-7 01:00/04:00 A320
MS692 SAH/CAI -2-45-7 05:00/08:15 A320

The O&D market between Yemen and Egypt isn't that big and the service relies on those transiting through CAI and make onward connections either to Europe or Yemen. The 4th frequency will start later in the summer.

You'll find similar schedules to ASM and EBB where many how use the service make onward connections to Europe and the US.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1):
No idea why 3 flight in 15 miniutes, stuff up?

Look above

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 2):
I would say that the slots at these times are cheaper.

Nope


Horus


p.s. now I need a rest after this loooong post

p.s. shame about the title of this thread, it's sure gonna dent MS's recovering image worried 

[Edited 2005-06-05 18:49:12]


EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineEurostarVA From Bahrain, joined May 2002, 1296 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3965 times:

Horus, thanks for your clarifications.

I still fail though to comprehend the idea of a 1-day 'quick' tour of Cairo which is very tiring....... this means that cypriot tourists would have to have a nap before going to the airport to catch as 00:30 flight to Cairo to remain awake until God knows when!!!!!!

Strangest tourist arrangement..... are hotels that expensive in Cairo?



If there is a will, there is a way
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3932 times:

More fuel is needed to depart CAI during daytime because of the heat. I don't know to what extent, if any, this may be a factor in MS's scheduling.

User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3866 times:

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 5):
Horus, thanks for your clarifications.

You're welcome

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 5):
I still fail though to comprehend the idea of a 1-day 'quick' tour of Cairo which is very tiring....... this means that cypriot tourists would have to have a nap before going to the airport to catch as 00:30 flight to Cairo to remain awake until God knows when!!!!!!

No the late evening CAI-LCA flights take the Cypriots back home but that late evening (00:30) LCA-CAI service doesn't carry those passengers who are going to Cairo for a day trip.

I'll try explaining it again...the early morning MS service to LCA doesn't fly back passengers who were on a day trip visit but instead the flight is used to supplement the 'normal' MS741 services. So when this early morning flight arrives at LCA, it picks up the 'short city break' holidaymakers (who are usually a part of a tour) and departs to CAI at around 7am where they arrive into Cairo at say 8am. Then the passengers spend the entire day touring Cairo until say 9pm. They then return to the airport and take the MS evening flight (say around 22:00) back to LCA. The MS flight going back to Cairo at 00:30 then carries 'normal' passengers who would usually have used an MS742 flight. But as I said more and more Cypriots are opting to stay longer in Cairo, so that late evening flight back to Cairo also carries holidaymakers wishing to spend a few days in the Egyptian capital.

I know it sounds confusing but once you understand it, it makes sense.

The Helios and Eurocypria services work the other way around since the aircraft are based in Cyprus.

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 5):
Strangest tourist arrangement..... are hotels that expensive in Cairo?

I don't think its strange at all. It's like when people living say in London 'pop' over to Paris for a day trip. It's just a way of experiencing a new place in a short period of time without the added cost of accomodation and other costs involved with longer stays. Speaking from a personal point of view, I've gone to Madrid and Copenhagen on day trips and even though its tiring if the tour is organised properly you'll end up having a great time.

As for hotel prices in Cairo, they seem similar to those at other world cities, they range from hostels to 5 star hotels...

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6):
More fuel is needed to depart CAI during daytime because of the heat. I don't know to what extent, if any, this may be a factor in MS's scheduling.

Though it's true more fuel is burnt during the hotter daylight hours, I seriously doubt it has much effect on MS's scheduling. If that was the case, then all aviation movement would be dormant during the day across the entire Middle East region.


Horus



EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineNYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3696 times:

Horus - wow. Thank you for that very comprehensive response! I continue to be impressed with your knowledge of Egyptian avaition. Much respect. I take back the "boneheaded" comment. I'm just surprised that there are really that many Cypriot tourists to warrant those flights. Cyprus is a small country (something like 770,000 people), and I tend to associate it as a "consumer" of tourists, not a "producer"! But you learn something new every day...

If you have any advice for me on flying TLV-CAI on a day when there are no direct flights, that would be most welcome. Are there any Israeli or Egyptian charters that connect TLV with SSH, LUX, or Hurghada, through which I can connect on to CAI? All my options seem to be long connections in ATH or FCO. Ugh.

As for that trophy. Let me know when you're going to be in Cairo next, and I'll buy you a beer.  Wink


User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3348 times:

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 8):
Horus - wow. Thank you for that very comprehensive response! I continue to be impressed with your knowledge of Egyptian avaition. Much respect.

Thank you. I am really fasinated by the Egyptian aviation scene and try to follow it to the smallest detail.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 8):
If you have any advice for me on flying TLV-CAI on a day when there are no direct flights, that would be most welcome. Are there any Israeli or Egyptian charters that connect TLV with SSH, LUX, or Hurghada, through which I can connect on to CAI? All my options seem to be long connections in ATH or FCO. Ugh.

Yes your choice is limited to the 2x weekly 4D B735 and 2x weekly LY B737/757/767 flights on the CAI-TLV route. And yes there is a weekly scheduled flight on Air Sinai (4D) from SSH to TLV (4D49 on Thursdays). And since 4D is wholly owned by MS you might be able to get a deal flying something like CAI-SSH-TLV-CAI. As for charter flights to SSH and to a lessor extent HRG, they are operated by Arkia.

LUX? I think you mean LXR for Luxor, and in that case I am not aware of any flights between the 2 cities.

When are you flying though? Air Sinai are significantly increaseing their CAI-TLV flights from the 31st October 2005 from 2 to 5x weekly flights. I have to say I am baffled at this sudden increase but I guess the demand must be there. This increase was originally planned for last month but has been delayed for an unknown reason, probably negotiations on the bilateral agreement between the 2 countries.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 8):
As for that trophy. Let me know when you're going to be in Cairo next, and I'll buy you a beer.

I'll hold you to that, but I do have a question...have you actually tried Egyptian beer?  Wink


Horus



EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineNYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3334 times:

Quoting Horus (Reply 9):
LUX? I think you mean LXR for Luxor,

I did mean LXR, thanks. I'm actually headed there this weekend, on MS.

And I did figure out my way back from TLV to CAI. Going via LCA and BEY, have discussed it in this thread.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2154633/

Quoting Horus (Reply 9):
I'll hold you to that, but I do have a question...have you actually tried Egyptian beer?

I've got a fridge full of Sakara waiting for me at home!  snaggletooth 

Now the wine is another story. I assume you've had Grand Marquis?  vomit 


User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 60
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3299 times:

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 10):
I did mean LXR, thanks. I'm actually headed there this weekend, on MS.

MS have between 6-8 flights to LXR each day and usually use A320s and A300 however other aircraft regularly make 'appearances'. Do you know which flight your taking or the aircraft?

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 10):

And I did figure out my way back from TLV to CAI. Going via LCA and BEY, have discussed it in this thread.

TLV-LCA-BEY-CAI??? Jeez, that's gonna be one hell of a journey. What day of the week are you planning to return to Cairo?



Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 10):
I've got a fridge full of Sakara waiting for me at home! snaggletooth

Hahahaha! How are things going in Cairo though? Have you settled down yet?

Check your PMs!


Horus



EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineNYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3207 times:

Quoting Horus (Reply 11):
TLV-LCA-BEY-CAI??? Jeez, that's gonna be one hell of a journey. What day of the week are you planning to return to Cairo?

I know. I love the redundant jaunt out to Cyprus, only to come right back to the "mainland." But, it was the cheapest and quickest way. The return journey is on Tuesday, 6/21. If you have any theory as to why Air Sinai and LY fly TLV-CAI twice weekly - on the same days of the week - I'd love to hear it!

Quoting Horus (Reply 11):
MS have between 6-8 flights to LXR each day and usually use A320s and A300 however other aircraft regularly make 'appearances'. Do you know which flight your taking or the aircraft?

I'm pretty sure it's A320s both directions. I'm on MS225 on 6/9 (two days from now), and MS208 on the return. Is it true both of these flights continue to/originate from ASW? I'll be going there on another weekend. And yes, it will be sweltering hot.

Quoting Horus (Reply 11):
Hahahaha! How are things going in Cairo though? Have you settled down yet?

Things are great. I've got a great pad in Zamalek, and I've been all over the city, and was up in Alexandria last weekend. Have met some good people, too.

Quoting Horus (Reply 11):
Check your PMs!

not sure what you mean here. presumably not prime ministers...  scratchchin 


User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3086 times:

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 12):

I know. I love the redundant jaunt out to Cyprus, only to come right back to the "mainland." But, it was the cheapest and quickest way. The return journey is on Tuesday, 6/21

Is your return date flexible? if so have you tried RJ? They have a 9x weekly TLV-AMM services through their subsidiary Royal Wings using Dash-8s and then connect on one of their 10x weekly A320/321/A310 AMM-CAI flights. Unfortunately for you none of RJ's 9x weekly TLV-AMM flights operate on Tuesdays.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 12):
If you have any theory as to why Air Sinai and LY fly TLV-CAI twice weekly - on the same days of the week - I'd love to hear it!

Sorry that's one mystery I can't answer. Air Sinai operations are not publicized at all so its difficult to come by information regarding their services. But I agree its strange that both carriers have flights on the exact same days.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 12):
I'm pretty sure it's A320s both directions. I'm on MS225 on 6/9 (two days from now), and MS208 on the return. Is it true both of these flights continue to/originate from ASW?

Looking at the schedules it does look like both flights will be with A320s. The 2 flights you're on don't continue to or originate from Aswan. MS225 is a 2x weekly flight routing CAI-LXR-SSH-CAI and MS208 is a Saturday only CAI-LXR-CAI service.

MS135 and MS139 are the 2 daily services that route CAI-LXR-ASW. This summer a new 3x weekly MS235 service that will also route CAI-LXR-ASW will start. In addition to these 18x weekly flights there are also several daily CAI-ASW non-stop flights.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 12):
I'll be going there on another weekend. And yes, it will be sweltering hot.

Well if you wanna look like a lobster....

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 12):
Things are great. I've got a great pad in Zamalek, and I've been all over the city, and was up in Alexandria last weekend. Have met some good people, too.

Good to hear things are going smoothly! Did anyone else go to Egypt with you like friends or co-workers or are you a lonely American in big old Cairo? How long are you staying there? a few weeks?

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 12):
not sure what you mean here. presumably not prime ministers... scratchchin

Hahaha no not prime minister but you're 'private messages'. If you go to your profile page and scroll down to the bottom you'll see a 'Messages' section and next to it you'll find 'history'. Click on that and you'll see private messages sent to you from other members...come to think about it I'm not sure you have that option unless you a first class member.


Horus



EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineNYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2898 times:

Thanks for all the MS info; that was interesting. I'm having some troubles with the MS website's timetable. I'm trying to find a list of every flight to LXR tomorrow, because mine is at 9pm, and if there's one at 6 or 7pm I'd prefer to take that. I don't want to bother my travel agent anymore, but if there's an earlier flight, I'll just show up early and take it. But as I said, I've had problems w/the web site.

Quoting Horus (Reply 13):
Good to hear things are going smoothly! Did anyone else go to Egypt with you like friends or co-workers or are you a lonely American in big old Cairo? How long are you staying there? a few weeks?

I'm here for three months, until around August 20. Any chance you'll be here between now and then? I came alone but am working in my company's office here, one of four people.


User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2736 times:

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 14):
Thanks for all the MS info; that was interesting. I'm having some troubles with the MS website's timetable. I'm trying to find a list of every flight to LXR tomorrow, because mine is at 9pm, and if there's one at 6 or 7pm I'd prefer to take that. I don't want to bother my travel agent anymore, but if there's an earlier flight, I'll just show up early and take it. But as I said, I've had problems w/the web site.

Well looking at the schedule it looks like there are only 3 flights open:
MS131 CAI/LXR 06:15/07:15 B735
MS135 CAI/LXR 07:00/08:05 A320
MS225 CAI/LXR 21:00/22:05 A320

MS137 and MS139 (the latter departs CAI at 18:20) are showing as unavailable which probably means that they're overbooked, so I don't fancy your chances of getting a seat.


As for MS's website, yes it's a bit of a nightmare when trying to get the schedule.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 14):
I'm here for three months, until around August 20. Any chance you'll be here between now and then? I came alone but am working in my company's office here, one of four people.

I usually go during the summer and Christmas, but not this year... sorry 


Horus



EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
This Is The World's Most Amazing Livery posted Thu Dec 4 2003 10:07:45 by Qantasclub
The World's Most Illogical Airline posted Thu Sep 5 2002 17:13:26 by BFS
Question Re LH Round The World Flt Crew Scheduling posted Mon Jul 29 2002 08:02:27 by Airsicknessbag
What Is The World's Most Famous Airport? posted Thu Jan 10 2002 20:01:48 by Arsenal@LHR
The World Most Anoing Airport posted Wed Jul 28 1999 18:54:15 by Sna320
YYZ Most Expensive Airport In The World posted Tue Nov 15 2005 15:01:34 by Fubar37
Most Impressive Airport In The World posted Sun Apr 11 2004 06:13:20 by Yegbey01
Most Dangerous Airfields Of The World posted Thu Mar 11 2004 05:03:05 by Hugojimenez
Boeing 757: The Most Beautiful Nose In The World posted Mon Dec 22 2003 16:28:41 by Jgore
Most Profitable Long Haul Route In The World posted Sun Nov 23 2003 12:03:04 by Qantasclub