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UA Asks For More Time (Again)  
User currently offlineAa777flyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4764 times:

United Airlines has asked the bankruptcy judge for another extention till Sept to file a plan to exit bankruptcy. UA still plans to exit bankruptcy in Sept.
IMHO I think this will be the last extention and they will exit as planned in the fall.

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4740 times:

And I believe everytime I buy a lotto ticket that I am going to win the big pay off, has not happened yet though I keep trying.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13766 posts, RR: 61
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4647 times:
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Bankruptcy judges tend to romanticize airlines, and their role in "saving" them in particular. They tend to take on a, "I simply MUST save this airline, no matter what the costs!" mentality - and consequently, logic and reason fly right out the window.

They view themselves as heroic saviors, and as such they're hell-bent on bending over backwards to give the airline every possible break, rather than doing their job which is to fairly balance the needs of the company vs. those of the creditors.

So UA will continue to get extension upon extension, with seemingly no end in sight.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4623 times:

Quoting Aa777flyer (Thread starter):
United Airlines has asked the bankruptcy judge for another extention till Sept to file a plan to exit bankruptcy. UA still plans to exit bankruptcy in Sept

From what I read on other news sources, there are no other creditor groups that have submitted a competing plan, so absent of that, there's no compelling reason for the Judge to cut UA off and listen to other plans. The fact no other group has put anything together to compete against UA management tells the a.) no one else is stupid enough to try or b.) the creditor groups are happy for now that UA management is doing what it can in a tough environment and believes it can in fact reemerge sometime in the next few months.

Exit in September...that's the first time I've seen where an actual month has been mentioned, I kept hearing "Fall" which could mean Sept., Oct., or even Nov. Depends on oil prices, I think, and they're going up today last I checked, above $55 a barrell.


User currently offlineOuboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4524 times:

Is this period extension for the exclusive period for UAL to submit its own plan before others? If thats the case - then there will still be the 30-day period to allow competing bids. I would be shocked if some bids for assets didn't come up - namely LHR slots.

User currently offlineUsAirways16bwi From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1004 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4485 times:

does any of this remind you of another airline? for me it does. i think UA is going down the same path that US is on.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 2):
So UA will continue to get extension upon extension, with seemingly no end in sight.

sad..but true.


User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3315 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4450 times:

But at least they're going to have Wifi!


.......
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4424 times:

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 6):
ut at least they're going to have Wifi!

Let's hope those planes do not get Repo'd!



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineFA4UA From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 812 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4341 times:

Perspective:

1. Management has been saying emerging in Fall for months... this is not a suprise to see another extension till September.

2. Call it Repo, call it returned to lessor, call it whatever you like. At the end of the day the rates on those 763's was ABOVE MARKET RATES, so what prudent business would continue paying those rates? What business savvy management team not fight for better, more realistic payment amounts? Sounds like a decent move no matter how you frame it.

3. Adding WiFi will be done by Verizon, therefore the cost UA will be spending will likely not equal that of paying for an aircraft as mentioned above. Let's not get too dramatic folks. Plus, by adding this highly sought after technology, it will generate lots of new revenue for UA.

FA4UA



The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4292 times:

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 8):
Call it Repo, call it returned to lessor, call it whatever you like. At the end of the day the rates on those 763's was ABOVE MARKET RATES, so what prudent business would continue paying those rates?

Its hard to understand why the lessors wouldn't make a deal with UA IF they couldn't get a better deal elsewhere...or are they just United bashers too?

General sentiment on the street is that UA needed those aircraft especially with the new emphsis on international service. Fat chance of replacing any of them until they emerge from Chapter 11.

Losing those aircraft was a management error no matter how you look at it.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5312 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4215 times:

A corporation can stay in bankruptcy for as long as the creditors will not object.

Obviously, UA's creditors think they will get more if UA successfully exits Chapter 11, rather than convert the petition to Chapter 7 and start to liquidate assets.

Also, the fact that no serious bids exist for a competing group to take over UA means that the judge doesn't need to push the petitioner to file a reorg. plan.

My only surprise is that many federal judges pushes cases, because they like to keep their dockets as short as possible. Considering the number of times that this matter has come up for hearings, motions, and status calls, one would think Judge Wedoff would be pushing, just to get this matter closed and off his docket.


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4196 times:

They are riding it out for all it is worth, and they need it if they plan to survive.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineAA7573E From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4157 times:

It's amazing how much FA4UA always sees the bright side of things...almost like he is brainwashed. Any perspective on UA's impotence in bankruptcy offered by FA4UA should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Anyone who thinks that losing those 763's was anything short of abhorrent management, and shortsided wishful thinking is a either a simpleton, an employee of united, or both.

The airline is a case study for mismanagement and the blatant abuse of the bk process. But adding wi-fi is clearly the way out of bk, take it from the CEO of UAL...that's a safe bet, I mean he and his board have never been known to make a bad bet in the past two years...have they?

Go out of business already, or get out of bk and join the real market playing field like 90% of the airline world. Nice job UAL. Well done.



See you up front!
User currently offlineGalapagapop From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 910 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 2):
Bankruptcy judges tend to romanticize airlines, and their role in "saving" them in particular. They tend to take on a, "I simply MUST save this airline, no matter what the costs!" mentality - and consequently, logic and reason fly right out the window.

They view themselves as heroic saviors, and as such they're hell-bent on bending over backwards to give the airline every possible break, rather than doing their job which is to fairly balance the needs of the company vs. those of the creditors.

So UA will continue to get extension upon extension, with seemingly no end in sight.

Little do they know they are hurting other viable operations by letting a bloated slow reacting major take unnecessary and unfair cuts. Hope when this is all over and UA finally get liquidated or something, someone looks at this guys record on this case and boots him.


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4102 times:

You guys don't get it, do you? We live in a capitalist economy. Nobody gives a damn about anyone but themselves. Sad, but true. Judge Wedoff is there to do one thing and one thing only: to protect the interests of the creditors while giving UA a chance to fix it's problems. Until the creditors decide that they are better off without UA, UA will not go anywhere. Unless UA decides it doesn't need Wedoff anymore, and the creditors agree. So stop with the "let UA die, Wedoff sucks" crap, because Wedoff is only doing his job. If you want to blame something, blame the guys who decided the US should be based on capitalism, not the people acting on it.

User currently offlineUA744Flagship From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4054 times:

Read Ckfred's post. It should open your eyes, unless you're a simpleton.

Bankruptcy is no cakewalk. Why do you think DL has struggled so much to avoid it?

Bankruptcy is not desirable. The only thing it does is give you more leverage in negioting cuts in everything - from leases to wages. And sometimes, you actually get less leverage - in the case of UA's lease renegotiations for 767s. Other than that you are at the mercy of your creditors. If creditors felt that UA was staying in BK too long, then they would not keep extending the POR deadline. You wanna change that? Then become a creditor, idiot.

In BK, it isn't just the company that can renegotiate a lease or contract payment -- it is a creditor as well.

That is why many times companies coming out of bankruptcy actually end up paying more for assets than before. That is precisely what happened to TWA - when it emerged from BK#1 it was saddled with high airplane leases. When it did BK#2 (acquired by AA) AA was able to negotiate lease rates down, or reject them. It all depends on the market for those assets. And in BK#1 for TWA, the market for planes was high; in BK#2 the market was low. No big surprise that lessors were able to get more for plane lease after BK#1, and AA was able to pay less after BK#2.

Bankrupcty is not desirable and to stay in it longer is not abusing the process -- staying in it longer just dashes the hopes of those who have an interest in seeing the company liquidated. CAPICHE??

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 12):
It's amazing how much FA4UA always sees the bright side of things...almost like he is brainwashed. Any perspective on UA's impotence in bankruptcy offered by FA4UA should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Anyone who thinks that losing those 763's was anything short of abhorrent management, and shortsided wishful thinking is a either a simpleton, an employee of united, or both.

The airline is a case study for mismanagement and the blatant abuse of the bk process. But adding wi-fi is clearly the way out of bk, take it from the CEO of UAL...that's a safe bet, I mean he and his board have never been known to make a bad bet in the past two years...have they?

Go out of business already, or get out of bk and join the real market playing field like 90% of the airline world. Nice job UAL. Well done.


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4038 times:

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 12):
It's amazing how much FA4UA always sees the bright side of things...

United needs a LOT more employees like FA4UA...optimistic, ones who care and want to see the company succeed. It's also helpful to have an inside perspective to counter all the anti-UA bashing that goes on.

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 12):
Any perspective on UA's impotence in bankruptcy offered by FA4UA should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

So we should instead listen to you, who works for UA's primary competitor?

I'll stick with FA4UA for the foreseeable future.  Wink


User currently offlineMcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1487 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4025 times:

The exclusivity period is not for asset bids. The exclusivity period is for competing bids in the reorganization. Today request is nothing other than the contium of the CH11 process. A literal check mark on the road to exit. UA makes its case in court to the judge with the labor packages, financing and the target of Oct exit. The naysayers here have been putting this company down for quite sometime and it is going to be an excellent breath of fresh air when we exit in OCT and watch the rest of you guys (AA,CO,DL and NW) struggle with the changing marketplace. UAL has made the difficult moves to ascertain the longevity of the corporation.

User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26170 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4019 times:

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 4):
I would be shocked if some bids for assets didn't come up - namely LHR slots.

A couple unused slots were quietly sold a few weeks back to Jet Airways of India. UA in the past few years has strategically sold/auctioned off unneeded slots at LHR.
You might remember UA up to recent years offered services from LHR to BOS, EWR and inter European flying to BRU and AMS. The two European flights were primarily to keep the LHR slots occupied.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4418 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4000 times:

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 8):
At the end of the day the rates on those 763's was ABOVE MARKET RATES, so what prudent business would continue paying those rates?

What prudent business would not try to protect itself from a high risk of default by charging exorbitant rates or imposing onerous terms upon a financially shaky firm? When CO, TW, and HP filed for bankruptcy, all of them emerged with horrific lease/financing terms (to this day, CO still pays through the nose for its 735 and some 733 leases because of its previous BKs). United will be no exception to this - even if the company emerges with decent leases/financing terms, it will be a LONG time before the airline will be able to acquire new planes or float bonds on attractive terms, as the financiers willing to work with the airline while in BK run for the hills and cover themselves post-BK.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineAA7573E From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3988 times:

Nice try UAL744 Flagship.

You can make all the excuses you want for UAL coming out of bk...and the TWA example, although true, does not apply to UAL. The industry is so much more transparent now than it was then, and the negative arbitrage they attained in bk is much harder to come by these days, unless of course you are run by fools..which certainly may apply to UAL.

UAL has been renogotiating, and re renegotiating leases since day 1 of this bk. I have personal exposure to their continual renegotiation of leases, and it simply never ends. As soon as the ink is dry on one new lease, they put it up for renegotiation.

I will give you that being in bk is no picnic, but neither is operating in the real world, where leases, agreements, contracts, and operating covenants can not be changed so easily, and you are forced to adapt and survive. Asking for extensions every quarter is a shameless abuse of the process. End of story.



See you up front!
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4418 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3966 times:

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 20):
As soon as the ink is dry on one new lease, they put it up for renegotiation.

Remember, the more the creditors bend over in bankruptcy, the faster they will run away from United if/when the reorganized company wants to buy a new 787/350/744ADV/380 or float an unsecured bond.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11983 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3954 times:

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 17):
The naysayers here have been putting this company down for quite sometime and it is going to be an excellent breath of fresh air when we exit in OCT and watch the rest of you guys (AA,CO,DL and NW) struggle with the changing marketplace.

I'll give you NW and DL, but I would say don't hold your breath on watching AA or CO "struggle" vis a vis UA. AA was one of only three major airlines in the entire United States to make an operating profit in Q1 (the others being WN and B6, not a bad group to be in) and CO showed enormous revenue strength with its May financial numbers. If -- and I say "if" only because we have been watching this date get pushed back and back for three years -- UA emerges from BK in October, then they no doubt will be a leaner airline but will still face the same challenges as everyone else and, IMHO, be no better positioned than AA and CO to meet those challenges.


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4418 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3932 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
IMHO, be no better positioned than AA and CO to meet those challenges.

UA will be in an inferior position - unless negotiated as part of BK emergence (and in fairness, Airbus is practically giving away A350s to non-existent airlines, 2/3rds of whose parents are badly bankrupt), UA won't be getting new planes or new financing for a long-time post-restructuring.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineUA744Flagship From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3932 times:

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 20):
UAL has been renogotiating, and re renegotiating leases since day 1 of this bk. I have personal exposure to their continual renegotiation of leases, and it simply never ends. As soon as the ink is dry on one new lease, they put it up for renegotiation.

Hmm, this is actually an interesting and disturbing point. I hope we're not spending a dollar to save a penny here... I guess the lawyers aren't playing as successful a hardball as the company is paying them to?


25 Baw716 : I hope the judge only gives them the extension and that they blow it. Reasoning: From my perspective, I will be finished with the plan I am writing by
26 Avek00 : The United lawyers ARE playing hardball, but it only goes so far - many of United's pieces possess just enough value for its creditors to draw lines
27 Baw716 : Once again, the mgmt of UA is thinking they can lease a 767 for the price of a 737. It just doesnt work that way. If the creditor has a customer for t
28 Jetclipper747 : does any of this remind you of another airline? for me it does. i think UA is going down the same path that US is on. Actually it does not. US went i
29 Avek00 : They "get it", there is just nothing they can do about "it" - United NEEDED to avoid BK like the plague, because the alternative was a slow, painful,
30 B744F : Big corporations get the socialism treatment, everybody else gets the free market capitalism treatment. How ironic. As usual, the real winners are the
31 Laxintl : Sure it does. UA has done a wonderful job in driving significant concessions on the price of its leased aircraft. Its B744s for instance are now leas
32 ContnlEliteCMH : Ah. So in your opinion, UA's emergence from Chapter 11 will signify an immediate return to profitability and general "high flying" while the rest of
33 Rsmith6621a : This will give UAL more time to plan another great robbery of their employees.
34 Mattnrsa : Those who think UA has been in bankruptcy for too long are all forgetting that HA just exited bankruptcy last week after spending 2 1/2 years under ba
35 Scotron11 : The figure I've seen on UAL leases is $900M they want to renegotiate. Come one folks, last year it was all about getting rid of the pensions, done; al
36 Ckfred : Mcdu: There are a number of airline analysts who believe, absent oil going below $40 a barrel in the next few months (which is still possible), that C
37 Braniff727 : And exactly how is it capitalistic to have the government allow UAL to abuse Bankruptcy Law for nearly 3 years? How capitalistic is it that UAL has U
38 Uadc8contrail : Braniff727 "And exactly how is it capitalistic to have the government allow UAL to abuse Bankruptcy Law for nearly 3 years? How capitalistic is it tha
39 Tango-Bravo : Nice try... Why then does it seem that the lessors have had no problems in re-marketing the same aircraft for which UA (supposedly) refused to pay "a
40 AirFrnt : That's not true. I worked for a small company that went thru BK court. The proccess, including the continual postponment of the re-org plan occured e
41 Baw716 : Tango Bravo, I agree with you. This whole business of UA paying above market rates is a load of crap. I have been involved now for the past six months
42 B744F : On favorable terms? And try going through the same BK process if you are an individual. Also, did your company get government welfare checks constant
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