MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31114 posts, RR: 74 Posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6816 times:
A Miami man has filed a lawsuit against Alitalia, claiming that the business-class product on their his Milan-Tel Aviv segment of his family's Miami-Milan-Tel Aviv trip last June was unnaccepetable and lacked proper legroom and pitch:
Wukka From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1013 posts, RR: 17 Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6776 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter): A Miami man has filed a lawsuit against Alitalia, claiming that the business-class product on their his Milan-Tel Aviv segment of his family's Miami-Milan-Tel Aviv trip last June was unnaccepetable and lacked proper legroom and pitch:
JGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6760 times:
How can you sue for that ? "Not liking the product" is not grounds for a lawsuit, is it ? Or is he suing for emotional trauma, loss of quality-of-life and other Yankee bimbo-type whinging ? Pitiful.
MXP-TLV is an intra-European (well, you know what I mean) route, it was AZ's standard European business class product ie. not much to write home about. Unless his travel agent promised him something different, he has only himself to blame.
7LBAC111 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 43 Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6657 times:
Quoting N1120A (Reply 5): Well, it depends here. If AZ promised a certain pitch on the MXP-TLV flight and did not give it, then he has a case
Even if they say their business class product as X" of leg room, they still have the defense, that in the conditions of carriage, that they reserve the right to substitute or change this dependant on the aircraft operating the route.
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21025 posts, RR: 60 Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6649 times:
Well, some TLV flights are run on charter style aircraft due to low yields and high risk. For example, before Sabena folded, they ran their BRU-TLV flight on a 767 with 30" pitch max, and the fleet was owned by a Sabena subsid., probably for liability and insurance purposes. I was NOT amused by how cramped that plane was, especially for the length of the flight.
I also find the European concept of business class insulting. Keeping a 32" pitch and just moving an armrest does not cut it for me, honestly. This might be his gripe. Since I don't want to register with the Miami Herald, I can't know for sure.
I assume he paid more than $100 for the tickets.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Zonky From New Zealand, joined Nov 2004, 432 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6637 times:
Leibowitz's squabble with Italy's national airline began in June after he paid $8,800 to upgrade to four business-class seats to fly his family from Miami to Milan and then Tel Aviv, Israel, for vacation. The airline required the upgrade on all four segments of the trip, he claimed.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 79 Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6610 times:
Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 6): Even if they say their business class product as X" of leg room, they still have the defense, that in the conditions of carriage, that they reserve the right to substitute or change this dependant on the aircraft operating the route
It depends on the contract. Additionally, they have to provide a level of service comparable to what he purchased. If he was promised a Magnifica Class seat on a 767, then he should have gotten the equal
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
Olympicbis From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6561 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7): For example, before Sabena folded, they ran their BRU-TLV flight on a 767 with 30" pitch max
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7): I also find the European concept of business class insulting. Keeping a 32" pitch and just moving an armrest does not cut it for me, honestly
Even in Sabena's 767's sometimes borrowed from Sobelair, seat pitch in BUSINESS was way above 30". 30" was economy.
As far as the European business class concept is concerned, we first should remember that most intra - european flights are performed with single-aisle planes, as opposed to some domestic sectors in the US which regularly use 767s or A300s or even 777s on some three-hour sectors. Pitch is almost ALWAYS around the minimum 33" or 34" on these aircrafts in business class with the middle seat now systematically left empty. Certainly comfortable enough for flights up to 3 and a half hours.
The overall business class experience between the European carriers and US ones is simply not comparable, and I recently had again the opportunity to check that on DL. Whether it is about fast check in, lounges, quick boarding, inflight service etc - let's not forget FA general attitude - business class on LH, LX, KL, SN, OS, AF, BA, SK, and many others is WAY SUPERIOR to whatever business and even "first" class you will get in most US domestic flights nowadays.
NYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1381 posts, RR: 10 Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6404 times:
About three weeks ago, I flew AZ on JFK-MXP-CAI. On the JFK-MXP leg, I was in economy in an aisle seat on a 772, and it was one of the most cramped and uncomfortable coach trips I've ever had, possibly matched by an LH 744 FRA-IAD a few years back. Does anyone know the pitch for coach in the AZ 772? It was pretty lousy. If I had a choice, I would not do AZ on a route like that again. The guy in front of me put back his seat during dinner, and I had to ask him to put it up - there was no room to eat.
PA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1950 posts, RR: 26 Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5929 times:
OK, granted, the guy is a jerk and whining baby, but - this does underline the problem of differences in expectations regarding Business Class.
Premium service in Europe stresses ticket flexibility rather than creature comforts. Premium service in the USA stresses comfort over flexibility. It is the difference in approaches that leads to a situation like this. Most Americans who don't travel frequently would have no idea that the inter-European business class is essentially the same seat as Economy.
25 YYZYYT: Apparently it can be... I recall an old case involving an English tourist who sued (and won) because his trip to Switzerland was not as promised (the
26 Baw716: MXP-TLV flights run will either run with the MD80 or with the A320. The MD80 in Business Class have the 4 across Sorrento Seat in Business Class with
27 FlyAUA: Some morons in this world have nothing better to do. Even if he wins - which I doubt he will - the airline has no money to compensate him!
28 Baw716: FlyAUA, It won't even get past the reading of the complaint. It'll get tossed that fast. baw716
29 Jetdeltamsy: North American passengers have found this out the hard way for decades. Business class in europe is not the same as the Domestic First Class in the US
30 Baw716: JetDeltaMSY, AMEN. A professional travel agent assisting this man could have provided him the right assistance to at least inform him of the situation
31 LX23: I agree with ALMOST everything you said except that last little bit. Off the top of my head: LH offers 1x744 and 1xA333 service between FRA and TLV,
32 ExFATboy: I should have been clearer on that - a lawsuit would be appropriate ONLY a passenger was involuntarialy downgraded from first/business to coach AND e
33 IDAWA: I tried an Alitalia MD-80 Business Class seat on a domestic flight in 2002 and I was very happy with the legroom I had. Of course it was less than the
34 BWI757: Nah, I guess business is slow for this guy so he grabs headlines by filing a frivolous lawsuit. Not only will he ge exposure and possibly new business
35 Palladium: A standard economy class seat pitch is between 32" - 34" An Executive Economy Class / Economy Deluxe Class seat pitch is around 38" (SQ and EVA Air ha
36 N1120A: Very few sectors in the US regularly use A300s, because only 1 airline flies them. Most US domestic sectors are narrowbody As are most intra-North Am
37 Baw716: LX23, Thanks, I contradicted myself with that statement, sorry. If you read earlier, I stated that the AZ product was more or less the same as any oth
38 Desiguy2447: Does this guy also plan to sue Alitalia for not having PTV's in every seat in Business class on there 767's. This is just too funny, and really dumb o
39 Airbus3801: Seat pitch refers to the distance from one point on your seat, and the exact same point on the seat in front of you. So lets say that I chose the end
40 NightFlier: Good luck with this one pal. Here's a good story for you. My aunt suffers from breathing problems, on a flight from FCO->JFK she became ill on the fli
41 ATAIndy: OH MY GOSH!!!!! This makes me sooooooo mad, people sue over the stupidest freaking reasons!!!! AAAAAHHHHHHHHH
42 ContnlEliteCMH: Yeah, or Alitalia could actually put the seat information on their website, then anybody could perform an adequate investigation without need a "prof
43 Wingnut135: Kick a$$, three threads about stupid law suits in a week! Passengers Sue Over Really Rough Landing (by Espion007 Jun 4 2005 in Civil Aviation) Arkansa
44 767Lover: I'm bracing for a lot of crap to be thrown my way, but in reading the article I think his complaint is more about being FORCED to pay for upgrades on