San747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4934 posts, RR: 13 Posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2946 times:
BA flew to SAN for 15 years (1987/8-2003), and was SAN's only consistent transatlantic service. Early flights were flown with British Caledonian 747-200s, then BA DC-10s, 747-400s, and finally the nonstop flight from 2001-2003 with a 777.
According to many past posts, BA stopped flying to SAN because of low loads in First and Business classes in the 777. My question is, what were loads like on the 747-400 one-stop that was flown from 1998-2001? And did the 747 loads lead to the nonstop with the smaller 777?
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 10 Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2889 times:
Hey SAN747 -
Sure wish I could help you on that one. I know that BA was always bound and determined to get a plane into SAN, but until there were sufficient 777's, it simply wasn't possible. Considering how long they continued the one-stop flights, it would seem that there must have been sufficient business travellers to warrant the flight with a tech-stop in PHX.
As for both SAN-LHR and SAN-YYZ on AC, both of those flights were aimed primarily at the business traveller, and both were terminated soon after 9/11. With airlines in struggling financial situations, it is simply more cost-effective to route passengers to SAN through one of the alliance partners' hubs rather than staff an airport with their people for just one flight.
Not much help - sorry.
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Lindy Field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3072 posts, RR: 15 Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2865 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD DATABASE EDITOR
I don't have an answer for your questions but I will correct some factual errors from your post.
The route started as SAN-LAX-LGW operated by BCal with a mixture of 742s and DC-10s in 1988 or 1989. Almost immediately BCal was taken over by BA which continued to operate the route for another couple of years until being terminated around 1991 (time of 1st Gulf War) if I remember correctly. This first service always operated via LAX.
There was then a seven year interruption in service.
When BA resumed service in 1998, they operated DC-10s LGW-PHX-SAN. These were then upgraded to 744s in 1999 or 2000 before being replaced by the nonstop 777 to LHR.
There are some nice photos in the database, do a search for BA and BCal at SAN.
B742 From UK - England, joined Mar 2005, 3760 posts, RR: 21 Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2859 times:
Quoting Lindy Field (Reply 2): When BA resumed service in 1998, they operated DC-10s LGW-PHX-SAN. These were then upgraded to 744s in 1999 or 2000 before being replaced by the nonstop 777 to LHR.
The Non-stop was actually from LGW!
Will BA ever bring back SAN or will VS ever start SAN?
Lindy Field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3072 posts, RR: 15 Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2828 times:
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Rob,
Good point. The nonstop 777 was initially to LGW but then was transferred to LHR.
BA will back in SAN someday when they have an aircraft (787 perhaps) better sized for the flight. I've heard that the 777 couldn't take off with a full load of cargo from SAN's runways and clear Pt. Loma... I've also heard there weren't enough butts filling the first class seats.
VS should look into serving SAN... when they get some smaller aircraft with a better climb rate.
B742 From UK - England, joined Mar 2005, 3760 posts, RR: 21 Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2823 times:
Quoting Lindy Field (Reply 4): BA will back in SAN someday when they have an aircraft (787 perhaps) better sized for the flight. I've heard that the 777 couldn't take off with a full load of cargo from SAN's runways and clear Pt. Loma... I've also heard there weren't enough butts filling the first class seats.
VS should look into serving SAN... when they get some smaller aircraft with a better climb rate.
Would SAN every make the runway longer just for VS?
Couln't a fully loaded 767 make it from LON to SAN non-stop, or is it just that BA don't want to base a single 763 at LGW?
Nicksair From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 484 posts, RR: 50 Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2803 times:
Just a minor correction. BA restarted service to SAN in 1996 with DC-10's. It was in 1998 that they started service with 747-400's.
Lindy Field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3072 posts, RR: 15 Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2769 times:
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I don't think SAN would build a runway extension just for Virgin even if there was room at the end of the runway for an extension. Unfortunately, there's not any room and there might be some NIMBY opposition to blasting a corridor through the Pt. Loma ridge.
The problem with the 767 idea (I don't think the route would necessarily have to operate from LGW as it previously operated from LHR) is that the 767 can carry a lot less cargo than the 777 or the proposed 787. The 767 isn't wide enough for standard freight containers. I've heard that there's a lot of money to be made in the belly cargo of these flights.
I don't know if BA would add SAN back on to PHX. I may be mistaken but that might necessitate moving the PHX flight back to LGW from LHR, and I doubt BA would want to do that. Furthermore, hasn't there been some talk of BA axing the PHX flight? Or am I just imagining that?
Boeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2749 times:
According to many past posts, BA stopped flying to SAN because of low loads in First and Business classes in the 777. My question is, what were loads like on the 747-400 one-stop that was flown from 1998-2001? And did the 747 loads lead to the nonstop with the smaller 777?
It stopped because it was weight limited due to terrain and a short runway. There where plenty of pax but they took a major cargo hit. You can't make money long haul without at least decent cargo numbers.
Would SAN every make the runway longer just for VS?
On what land???? You can only make it "effectively" longer by going East anyway and you need 600' + 1000' overrun because you fall under a new construction criteria. That distance puts you in the center of I-5. You gain nothing in terrain clearance going West. Landing distance isn't a issue.
DCAYOW From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 582 posts, RR: 3 Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2745 times:
SAN-PHX loads on BA were around 35%. At current fuel costs - that is a non-starter.
The issues of BA at SAN also relate to its ability to attract the AAdvantage base here in Southern California. When AA-BA can fully code-share and have full frequent flyer reciprocity - that is when the business travelers (higher yielding and front end) would consider taking BA on SAN-LON. The heavy defense contractor base could also not take BA due to the "Fly America" regulations. Defense contractors could take a AA code share however. So the US-EU bilateral and all the Heathrow issues get sorted out first.
Also, the issue with effective operation of aircraft from SAN to Europe is not the runway length. It is the Pt. Loma obstruction. The following aircraft are capable of reaching central Europe with Pt. Loma obstruction and full pax and respectable cargo load: 777 (preferably with RR engines), A340-600/-500, 747-400ER, & 787. The 767 could probably make it to Reykjavik.
Therefore, VS would have to use the A346 - at over 300 seat capacity this would mean a less than daily flight and the lack of behind LON feed weakens this option vis a vis BA.
DCAYOW From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 582 posts, RR: 3 Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2726 times:
The 787-8 is expected to reach Europe with 40,000 lbs. cargo under the current runway configuration.
Lindy Field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3072 posts, RR: 15 Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2709 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD DATABASE EDITOR
So what about an Emirates A380 with a full crew and 25 passengers on a good day? Would that make it from SAN to Dubai?
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 10 Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2652 times:
By the way, you have NOT lived until you stood at the corner of Lytton Street and Rosecrans Avenue (barely half a mile west of runway 27) and had a fully loaded 777 screaming over your head as it claws its way up into the sky at a much lower angle than any other plane. I did it several times just for the thrill.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
DCAYOW From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 582 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2586 times:
That is awesome PanAm747 - I wish I had done that.
Just for my own curiosity can you estimate the altitude it was flying at directly over Lytton / Rosecrans?
September11 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3623 posts, RR: 23 Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2557 times:
Quoting BY188B (Reply 10): Here's some photos of Bcal/Ba at SAN
TymnBalewne From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 912 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2556 times:
Simply put, BA's SAN route was unprofitable. There isn't currently the O/D traffic to support a non-stop. The flight over PHX became a challenge when it became mandatory to clear imms and customs at the first point of arrival in the United States, so a one-stop isn't really viable...especially in the world of codeshare.
BA and SAN airport tried to come to an agreement whereby SAN would subsidize the flight in the form of greatly reduced rents and landing fees but the amount needed by BA to continue the flight could not be met by SAN.
Boeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2457 times:
Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 19): Simply put, BA's SAN route was unprofitable.
Not in terms of Passengers, only in terms of cargo. The BA 777 only had 230 seats in it with an 85% load factor. Do that same math on the 787-8.
Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 19): There isn't currently the O/D traffic to support a non-stop.
Load of BS.
Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 19): The flight over PHX became a challenge when it became mandatory to clear imms and customs at the first point of arrival in the United States, so a one-stop isn't really viable...especially in the world of codeshare.
The flight ot PHX was required in the 747-400 due to performance limitations and nothing else.
Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 19): BA and SAN airport tried to come to an agreement whereby SAN would subsidize the flight in the form of greatly reduced rents and landing fees but the amount needed by BA to continue the flight could not be met by SAN.
No... BA said to SAN pay for the Cargo offset ($3 million a year) and we'll play. SAN said.. Quit smoking crack and go away.
Wanna try and pull some more random BS out of your rear?
Quoting DCAYOW (Reply 13): The 787-8 is expected to reach Europe with 40,000 lbs. cargo under the current runway configuration.
San747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4934 posts, RR: 13 Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2408 times:
Quoting DCAYOW (Reply 11): The following aircraft are capable of reaching central Europe with Pt. Loma obstruction and full pax and respectable cargo load: 777 (preferably with RR engines), A340-600/-500, 747-400ER, & 787. The 767 could probably make it to Reykjavik.
Wait a minute... A345/6, 744? If they could, how come they were never used to SAN before (excepting 744, that flight was one-stop)? Or is that assuming a runway longer than the current one?
On an unrelated note, is SAN not really a big cargo destination? FX flies widebody cargo, as well as ABX. CAT and DHL also fly 727s... Basically, can SAN sustain a widebody international cargo service?
DCAYOW From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 582 posts, RR: 3 Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2392 times:
Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 20): Not all of Europe. But thanks for playing.
All markets of significance (eg hub) including LON, CDG, AMS and FRA are within the range contours from SAN.
Quoting San747 (Reply 21): Wait a minute... A345/6, 744? If they could, how come they were never used to SAN before (excepting 744, that flight was one-stop)? Or is that assuming a runway longer than the current one?
On an unrelated note, is SAN not really a big cargo destination? FX flies widebody cargo, as well as ABX. CAT and DHL also fly 727s... Basically, can SAN sustain a widebody international cargo service?
The 744ER pax version is only utilized by QANTAS. As for the A340-500 - I don't think any European carrier has ordered and the A340-600 at >300 seats has too much capacity for the SAN-Europe market.
The problem with international cargo is the curfew - most intl cargo carriers want to leave after 23:30.
TymnBalewne From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 912 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2375 times:
Quoting San747 (Reply 21): Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 19):
Simply put, BA's SAN route was unprofitable.
Not in terms of Passengers, only in terms of cargo. The BA 777 only had 230 seats in it with an 85% load factor. Do that same math on the 787-8.
Loadfactor doesn't equate to profitability. Flights aren't solely profitable because of passengers. As you've said, cargo was not profitable. The flight was not profitable both above and below the wing. Unprofitable is unprofitable. Period. I don't quite get what you're trying to get at with referring to the 787-8?
Quoting San747 (Reply 21): Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 19):
The flight over PHX became a challenge when it became mandatory to clear imms and customs at the first point of arrival in the United States, so a one-stop isn't really viable...especially in the world of codeshare.
The flight ot PHX was required in the 747-400 due to performance limitations and nothing else.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying. A one-stop flight is a challenge, and an expensive one at that. In many areas you have double the costs for half the benefits. (i.e. crews, landing fees). For BA, codeshare is more advantageous than operating the onestop or non-stop to SAN.
BristolFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 2135 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2348 times:
Quoting Lindy Field (Reply 8): Furthermore, hasn't there been some talk of BA axing the PHX flight? Or am I just imagining that?
As a recent immigrant to Phoenix from the UK, I hope not! I posted a thread here about 2 months ago about the future of BA LHR-PHX and the verdict was it is safe. Did a search for the thread and it wasn't found (but they never are!).
BF
Fortune favours the brave
25 WA727: The BA PHX-LHR 744 flight runs six days a week and BA officials several months ago were talking of adding the missing Wednesday and possibly a second
26 Boeing7E7: Nope and the fact RR made the engines is irrelivant. Thrust is thrust. The 777-200LR can and the 787-8 can, in fact the 777-200LR perfoms a smidge be
27 N1120A: It wasn't a tech-stop in PHX. The service was to both cities and PHX has more than enough traffic to warrant the stop Excelent, especially ex-PHX Act
28 DCAYOW: The flight could have been 75% or even 100% PLF and still made it to PHX. The fuel weight would have neglible. Also, the cost to operate a tag betwee
29 N1120A: Had nothing to do with whether they could make PHX or not. It had to do with terminal and operational restrictions
30 DCAYOW: B744's can operate at SAN - apart from a few strange turns - B744s have no terminal or field (emphasize field) operational restrictions. Range/distan
31 Boeing7E7: Really? The B787 SAN range contours with "-9 Thrust Rating" indicated the 787 could make Europe with full pax and 40,000 lbs. and 210 lbs./pax. Assumi
32 N1120A: Trent powered 772ERs at BA have greater range and takeoff performance than GE-90 powered ones, that was the point. If BA used a GE-90 powered 772IGW,
33 Boeing7E7: If BA used a GE-90 powered 772IGW, they would have had to leave 50 passengers as well as cargo off the flight The Trent engine faces the same problem
34 DCAYOW: Hopefully the EMAS project next year will make more of the runway useful. It should be able to stop aircraft at 70 mph.
35 TymnBalewne: A 787 of any variety will not make SAN-LON profitable today. As I'm sure you're aware, the 787 hasn't flown yet. Perhaps it will make for a profitabl
36 Boeing7E7: Hopefully the EMAS project next year will make more of the runway useful. It should be able to stop aircraft at 70 mph. That only removes declared dis
37 TymnBalewne: Good. I'm glad we agree. BA SAN was unprofitable. SAN was unwilling to subsidize the route enough through reduced landing fees and rents. Perhaps the
38 Trvlr: Good to see there's some sort of agreement, but I think you do need to remember that there are always reasons behind simple unprofitability of routes
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