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Scabs At NW- Harmful Or Helpful  
User currently offlineAirlinelover From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5580 posts, RR: 23
Posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2761 times:

Well, I've read so many news reports and so many forums where people talk about NW or UA or whoever striking, and now NW is hiring "replacemant F/A's" in case of a strike. Also called SCABS..

Scabs are usually referred to in hateful ways, often attacked, harasses, threatened, and more just because they are doing a job.

I wanted to share a thought with everyone, as people seem to not realize the GOOD Scabs do..

If the F/A's at NW strike, there are a few things that might happen (this is not an all-inclusive list). 1- NW loses MORE money then before. 2- NW goes under due to not being able to fly at all. 3- NW hires replacement people to keep the airline flying, and keeping public inconvienance to a minimum.

First, let's take a look at a scab on a human body. You get cut, scratched or whatever, bleed, and as the blood clots and dries, you stop bleeding and a SCAB is formed. What does the scab do? It protects the cut from foreign material, helps in the healing process.. Keeps blood from leaking out of the body through the cut.

Second, let's take a look at a Scab Employee. If the NW F/A's strike, NW would rather use option 3 then be totally screwed. A scab employee helps keeps the airline flying. A scab employee helps prevent further losses in $ that a strike can cause. A scab helps ensure there will be an airline to COME BACK TO when the strike is over.

Remember the Detroit Newspapers strike that lasted years? If not for scabs, the paper would have had to stop printing. I, for one, do not want to see NW stop flying. And if Scabs are to help with that, good on them.

So let's not look at scabs as evil. They are just people doing a job like anyone else. Remember that next time you hear someone referr to a "Scab" as being evil.

Chris
*Prepares for a flamefest*

[Edited 2005-06-08 22:36:00]


Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirWest From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

This will come down to which part of the airline you work for. Management generally loves scabs, union members will tend to hate them.

Zach


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2729 times:

I wouldn't be surprised if they took out rows of seats on a/c so they won't need as many F/As if they have to bring in non-striking ones. I also wouldn't be surprised if non-inflight employees are trained as "pillow fluffers", doing a lot of the service aspect of the inflight crew save the safety part.

User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3573 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 2):
I wouldn't be surprised if they took out rows of seats on a/c so they won't need as many F/As if they have to bring in non-striking ones. I also wouldn't be surprised if non-inflight employees are trained as "pillow fluffers", doing a lot of the service aspect of the inflight crew save the safety part.

The ad I read suggested the scabs will be going through normal F/A training. I'm sure there are FAA regulations for F/As preventing them from just being "pillow fluffers".

I'm against scabs, they undermine organized labor thereby allowing the company to do whatever they want to its employees. Maybe it doesn't matter for an aviation geek watching from afar but if you're the one being exploited by that big company, it sucks.



PHX based
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2679 times:

NW has no choice but to do this... good strategy and planning IMO. The airline CANNOT afford a shut-down like what happened when the pilots walked out, and it also cannot affort not to get the concessions it needs from all its labor groups, as its costs are now the highest in the industry.


An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineElagabal From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2671 times:

I think the scabs issue is a bit like the issue of free speech. This means that, regardless of what you think about any given side,

1). Every worker should have the right to unionize, or not to unionize, as he or she sees fit;

2). Every worker should have the right to strike; and

3). Every worker should also have the right to work.

As for where you stand on the picket line (or behind it, or over it), say what you will, but you must respect everyone's right to both free association, and free movement.

2p


User currently offlineAirlinelover From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5580 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2670 times:

Quoting 777STL (Reply 3):
Quoting Srbmod (Reply 2):
I wouldn't be surprised if they took out rows of seats on a/c so they won't need as many F/As if they have to bring in non-striking ones. I also wouldn't be surprised if non-inflight employees are trained as "pillow fluffers", doing a lot of the service aspect of the inflight crew save the safety part.

The ad I read suggested the scabs will be going through normal F/A training. I'm sure there are FAA regulations for F/As preventing them from just being "pillow fluffers".

777- SRBmod said "NON IN FLIGHT EMPLOYEES" meaning groudn crew might start helping out..

Chris



Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
User currently offlineHammer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 688 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2635 times:

NWA is going to file for chapter 11 by April next year, this was told to me by an AMFA leader, they are due to pay out huge numbers for pensions starting in April and if they can't get help from the government and consessions it will be by April 2006. Even if the F/A's and mechanics/cleaners give into huge pay cuts, it will only buy NWA time and they will still be in bankruptcy by next summer. As far as scab workers, I have to agree with everyone who hates them, big business loves them because they help out in time of need, but it is a huge thorn in the side of unionized workers....

User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2591 times:

To all the scab haters, just one question? What do hate most?
1. Northwest declaring bankruptcy and wipe out all labor contracts.
2. Northwest hiring "scabs" to insure the operation in the event of strike.

Please answer from the head rather than the heart.


User currently offlineNwafflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2588 times:

Now, with a bit of reason here, and some intelligence, NWA should be able to keep going and also prosper - and also continue the employment of numerous flight attendants/pilots/mechanics/and ramp crew. Many of us, in many different industries are facing defined pension benefit cuts - I for one cannot retire as planned.

However, to penalize an entire industry is idiotic -- let's be a bit sane/rationale and intelligent here. If NWA has to hire so called "SCABS" in order to keep flying, so be it. Or, if NWA can make an arrangement with the
FAA to allow fewer flight attendants, and more passenger responsibility, so be it.

I will never understand why we downrate pilots and flight attendants (other than my most favorite Pinnacle FA). They have a responsible job, and at least in my opinion, NWA does a good job -- I feel safe, and guess what, the reasons why I fly are #1, time, and #2 safety.


User currently offlineJamake1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1005 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2519 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 8):
To all the scab haters, just one question? What do hate most?
1. Northwest declaring bankruptcy and wipe out all labor contracts.
2. Northwest hiring "scabs" to insure the operation in the event of strike.

I would like speak to both parts of your question. I have worked for both union and non-union airlines. I have, in fact, worked for four U.S. airlines. In my experience, one needs union representation in this business. Airline workers fall under the FAA and not OSHA for workplace protections. The FAA labor guidelines are very minimal, such as duty time regulations for pilots and flight attendants. One needs workrules in place that supersede the FAA MINIMUM guidelines.

Furthermore, if NWA were to go into bankruptcy, under the Chapter 1113 process, the company has to NEGOTIATE a concessionary agreement before requesting an abrogation of the collective bargaining agreement. As an employee, I think it is really important to have some negotiating leverage, especially in bankruptcy. Only if a consentual agreement cannot be reached, then the company can request an abrogation of the collective bargaining agreement and be free to impose their own contract terms.

A good example of this is the F/A's at United. Although they have endured two rounds of concessions, by having a collective bargaining agreement in place, they were able to MINIMIZE their givebacks. Most of their workrules have been retained as a result. They have also been able to retain 5 paid holidays, a perk that F/A's at most airlines do not enjoy.

If Delta goes into Chapter 11 and seeks more concessions, their non-union work groups have no leverage for negotiating or minimizing their give-backs. There is no legally binding collective bargaining agreement in place and that is not a good position to be in if you are labor.

In summary, I regard union representation as a necessary evil. Actually, in the case of AFA, their activism has brought about numerous positive changes to workplace safety, such as non-smoking on all flights, emergency exit path lighting, and lavatory smoke detectors, just to name a few.

As for the scab issue. SCABS hurt the American worker in the long run. They undermine the collective bargaining process and ultimately a SCAB worker undermines him or herself in the form of a diminished quality of work life and less pay and benefits. The workplace protections and working conditions that organized labor has fought hard for, become totally undermined by SCAB workers. Fighting for a better quality of work life benefits the future airline or other industry worker.

Taking advantage of a labor dispute so that one can see the world more quickly is short-sighted. I personally feel that SCABS lack integrity. No union wants to strike. Sometimes it takes a strike or the threat of a strike to get management back to the negotiating table or to bargain in good faith. As a work group, there needs to be strong solidarity and front line support for the negotiating committee at the bargaining table. A SCAB undermines that solidarity.

As I mentioned in another thread, the F/A's who crossed the picket line when F/A's struck at American in 1993 were treated so horribly by the returning AA F/A's, that many of them ended their careers with AA. They were not invited to crew dinners on layovers, they were left to work by themselves on the airplane; they were outcasts.

Part of the joy of being a crewmember is the comraderie that is forged with colleagues and the friendships that are made. I personally would find it very unenjoyable to be a part of a crew that shunned me.

Having said all that, I would strongly discourage anyone who is flirting with the idea of applying for a job that involves crossing a picket line in a labor dispute, from doing so.

In closing, while I was working for a non-union airline, we organized because working conditions had become so bad. I won't go into the details, but duty days often times exceeded 24 hours ON DUTY. And it was legal according to FAA guidelines at the time. I am very proud of the work we did to negotiate and ratify a first contract agreement. It paved the way for further workplace improvements for the flight attendants that are there today. Furthermore, having union representation on the property brought infrastructure to the crew scheduling department and established systems that actually made crew scheduling more efficient.

So, having experienced both sides of the union coin, I would say having representation is necessary. It's like have a sound insurance policy. And I personally feel that SCAB workers disrespect and undermine the profession.

[Edited 2005-06-09 01:52:29]


United's B747-400. "She's a a cruel lover."
User currently offline737doctor From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1332 posts, RR: 39
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2496 times:

Yeah, who cares as long as YOU, the flying public, are not inconvenienced. Let the management who, through inepitude and mismanagement, got the company into such a mess now walk all over the workers. It's all good as long as you get your $99 ticket.

Scabs need to remember one thing: The stigma of crossing a picket line will follow them for the rest of their professional lives. You may not like it and it may not seem fair, but they will be remembered for their actions and likely passed over when seeking employment elsewhere.

I for one would never cross a picket line. My fellow mechanics are my brothers; we fight in the trenches every day. The last thing I would want to do is stab them in the back.



Patrick Bateman is my hero.
User currently offlineMtnmanmakalu From Ireland, joined Nov 2004, 515 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2478 times:

This is hilarious!!! At NWA, we haven't even seen barely any proposals from the Company to even have an opinion on a new contract yet, and we are updated several times a week by the PFAA.... How can we even threaten to strike, have a slow-down or stoppage, or anything else when the negotiation process in its infancy? In my opinion, NWA is going to be short F/A's even after all recalls, due to retirements, attrition, etc. I bet they won't even get back 1/2 of the 600+ still on furlough... Most people have moved on by now.

And BTW, do you think Bush would ever let a strike happen if it ever got that far??? And a strike at ANY Airline in this day and age is just stupid, IMHO...

mtnman



I do, I don't, whatever.......
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2456 times:

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 12):
And BTW, do you think Bush would ever let a strike happen if it ever got that far??? And a strike at ANY Airline in this day and age is just stupid, IMHO...

What about the pilot strike of the late 90's! No one thought that would be allowed and it was, also the Comair pilots another example.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineMtnmanmakalu From Ireland, joined Nov 2004, 515 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2443 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 13):
also the Comair pilots another example.

No offense, but an NWA strike would have a much, much bigger impact on WORLD travel than the Comair strike did...



I do, I don't, whatever.......
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2410 times:

Tell that to all the people changing planes in CVG!


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineAvionicMech From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 315 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2362 times:

I could not agree more with Jamake1 and 737doctor. As they said its easy for people to say that they shouldn't strike because it will stop people being able to get their flights but also what about the F/A's at NW, they shouldn't have to put up with a severe drop in pay and conditions. I know that times are hard in the US in this industry but 9/11 was only one of many factors that have sent it downhill, the majority of it unfortunately has been down to poor management and over capacity and why should the workers have to suffer because of it.

User currently offlineEjmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2344 times:

I'm a firm believer in right to work. Companies should offer what they offer, and people should take it or leave it. If its not enough, find another job. Eventually they will have to make it more attractive to find workers.

The fact that there are "scabs", people that are willing to take the jobs for lower pay, proves that the wages given are inflated over the demand of the market.



"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25012 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2337 times:
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Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 17):
proves that the wages given are inflated over the demand of the market.

Or perhaps it proves that there are a lot of people out of work?

Or perhaps it proves that there are people who would rather work at an airline - no matter what the wages - than, say, a hospital?

Or perhaps it proves that there are a lot of people who see this as a way to gain experience in the industry?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2335 times:

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 17):
I'm a firm believer in right to work. Companies should offer what they offer, and people should take it or leave it. If its not enough, find another job. Eventually they will have to make it more attractive to find workers.

"find another job"? It isn't that easy, especially in an economy like this.

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 17):
The fact that there are "scabs", people that are willing to take the jobs for lower pay, proves that the wages given are inflated over the demand of the market.

Overinflated compared to what? The minimum wage is 30% lower today than it was in 1979. Sure, salaries are overinflated compared to the countless 3rd world countries whom the US worker is competing against.

Unfortunately this backwards thinking is what is believed by the people running the country as well.


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2237 times:

While I understand the desire to unionize, and why labor unions used to be relevant and important, unionized companies just can't compete with non-union companies when union employees insist on work rules that drive up costs and are paid higher salaries. It just can't always be management’s fault – especially when the competition has drastically lower personnel costs.

Take the auto industry. Health care expenses add $1,500 to the cost of each GM vehicle. General Motors continues to lose market share to its foreign rivals - most who have assembly plants in North America - who have more efficient factories, lower health care and pension costs and fewer unionized employees. GM's 30 North American plants operated at an average of 85 percent of their capacity in 2004, compared to an average of 107 percent for Toyota's six North American plants. Shutting down excess capacity isn't all that beneficial, either. Employees at the recently closed GM plant in Baltimore will get paychecks for several years - for doing nothing. All those wages get tacked on to the price of a GM car.

When B6 and WN have fewer employees and receive lower wages and benefits than their legacy competition, is it any wonder so many are in trouble?


User currently offlineChgoflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 622 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2226 times:

Quoting Elagabal (Reply 5):
1). Every worker should have the right to unionize, or not to unionize, as he or she sees fit;

2). Every worker should have the right to strike; and

3). Every worker should also have the right to work

Well said but you left out on important part. Every company should have the right to fire employees who either dont proform or it cant afford.



Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
User currently offlineAvionicMech From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 315 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2195 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
Take the auto industry. Health care expenses add $1,500 to the cost of each GM vehicle. General Motors continues to lose market share to its foreign rivals - most who have assembly plants in North America - who have more efficient factories, lower health care and pension costs and fewer unionized employees. GM's 30 North American plants operated at an average of 85 percent of their capacity in 2004, compared to an average of 107 percent for Toyota's six North American plants.

Well you said it all there, the rivals have more efficient factories and are working to full capacity and that is why they are making money and not loosing it. This is exactly the same as the airline industry, the legacy carriers in the US just flew too many flights and therefore employed too many people than the demand and now there is even less need. Whereas the LCC's like SouthWest only flew the flights they could make money on which is one of the reasons why they are still doing well. But because of these poor decisions made by the management years ago it does not make it fair on the workers to impose poor working conditions and pay because of it.

Quoting Chgoflyer (Reply 21):
Well said but you left out on important part. Every company should have the right to fire employees who either dont perform or it cant afford.

Yes I agree that every company should be able to fire someone if they don't perform at their job but to fire someone because they can't afford them is not fair on the worker again. There should always be a good attempt to keep workers on rather than just make them redundant at a whim.


User currently offlineNorthwestair From Poland, joined Jul 2001, 648 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2129 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 13):

What about the pilot strike of the late 90's! No one thought that would be allowed and it was, also the Comair pilots another example.

I thought that the 98 NW Pilot strike was during the Clinton administration. I was laid off for about 2 weeks. I go to work everyday except Sun/Mon I do my job and then I go home. In return I expect to have a paycheck every other Friday. That's it. You can look at this Scab thing 2 different ways. Our HDQ is telling the flying public don't worry if one of our Unionized Work groups strike we have you covered. We'll still be flying our Airplanes so don't worry go ahead and book on our Aircrafts. The 2nd is our Top Management is tellling the Union that you see we to can play hard ball. If you strike we will have other people to do the job. Another thing is we (employees) have the Union telling us one thing and then we have Management telling us another. I'm getting sick and tired of it. My 2 or maybe 3 cents but not 4



I don't care who you fly just as long as you fly
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2082 times:

Quoting AvionicMech (Reply 22):
Well you said it all there, the rivals have more efficient factories and are working to full capacity and that is why they are making money and not loosing it. This is exactly the same as the airline industry, the legacy carriers in the US just flew too many flights and therefore employed too many people than the demand and now there is even less need. Whereas the LCC's like SouthWest only flew the flights they could make money on which is one of the reasons why they are still doing well. But because of these poor decisions made by the management years ago it does not make it fair on the workers to impose poor working conditions and pay because of it.

What other choice does management have? Granted, the legacy carriers are in the state they're in because of poor decisions made in the executive suite. But unless you re-regulate the airline industry and apportion routes, the LCC's will continue to have an advantage over the legacy carriers because of their lower personnel costs. Since that isn't going to happen in today's economy, there are only two other options - they can quit, or accept a pay cut.

I known this is harsh, but it's reality. As a consumer, I'm not going to fly from IAD to OAK on UA if they aren't cost competitive with B6.


25 Boeing757/767 : Reply 5 said: "As for where you stand on the picket line (or behind it, or over it), say what you will, but you must respect everyone's right to both
26 WeAreUnited : The above quote is the result of someone understanding just a little bit about economic theory (but only in theory...) and not recognizing the fact t
27 DCAflyboy : I for one am tired of the constant battles between management and unions. I have worked for two airlines in twelve years; one union and one non-union.
28 Halls120 : Perhaps I was wrong to rely on what I've read in the papers, and on what my brother, a DL pilot, has told me, but until they agreed to take a pay cut
29 Aa757first : Yes, but some flight attendants will cross the picket line and some will be trained as full fledged flight attendants. Some will be there just to pro
30 Halls120 : Yes, I recognize that WN flies only the 737. But what do senior US, UA, AA, and DL captains who fly 747, 330 and 777 make?
31 WeAreUnited : I agree with you to some degree here. Workers at the majors have clung to some out-dated clauses in their contracts far longer than they should have.
32 Halls120 : You are perceiving condescension where none was implied. "Rules" as you first used the term is rather broad. I was merely seeking clarification. Sorr
33 Luvfa : According to Part 121 of the FAR's the airline must provide a minimum of 1 flight attendant for every 50 seats the airplane has. All F/A's must pass t
34 Aa757first : What's your point? Southwest should pay their pilots the same to fly a 737 between Birmingham and Baltimore that American pays a pilot to fly a 777 b
35 Elagabal : Absolutely. Pretend I said it the first time!
36 PRAirbus : "Eastern Airlines requesting permission to land"...anyone remembers? Union extremism is not good either...where's Eastern now? Did the IAM save the em
37 Halls120 : I don't believe Southwest should pay their 737 captains the same as a UA or AA pilot flying 777s to LHR. I made the initial claim that part of the re
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