Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
UA Flight Attendants Lose Latest Court Bid  
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24785 posts, RR: 46
Posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2927 times:

A Federal District Court denied the latest bid by the United Airlines flight attendant union to force a halt on the PBGC from taking over the group's pension plan.
The court found the PBGC acted properly and within its legal bounds when it reached agreement with United in April to assume the groups pension plan.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuot...05-06-08_20-43-23_n08367561_newsml

[Edited 2005-06-09 07:43:12]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2910 times:

Good. Hopefully, this ponzi scheme will not further jeapardize UAL. Pity the American taxpayers have been stuck with it.

User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2902 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 1):
Pity the American taxpayers have been stuck with it.

Nope. Unless the PGBC (not PBGC) itself defaults, the taxpayers have no liability here. The PGBC receives premiums paid by employers, not taxpayers. This has been repeatedly stated in various threads on this subject.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2890 times:

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 2):
Nope. Unless the PGBC (not PBGC) itself defaults, the taxpayers have no liability here. The PGBC receives premiums paid by employers, not taxpayers. This has been repeatedly stated in various threads on this subject.

The PGCB is in danger of defaulting.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24785 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2870 times:

PBGC = Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24996 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2862 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Gee, I look forward to that happy day when someone stands up for the American workers.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2847 times:

I look forward to the day when workers stand up for themselves and take responsibility for their own lives instead of waiting for someone else to do it for them.

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24996 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2844 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6):
I look forward to the day when workers stand up for themselves and take responsibility for their own lives instead of waiting for someone else to do it for them.

I guess we have different views on what the contract between management and worker represents, then.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2835 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
I guess we have different views on what the contract between management and worker represents, then.

 Smile You remind me of the old Soviet saying: "We pretend to work and the bosses pretend to pay us."


User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2833 times:

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 2):
This has been repeatedly stated in various threads on this subject.

Maybe instead of reading various threads, you could read their financial statements and then ask yourself whether the taxpayers will end up paying.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24996 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2828 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 8):
You remind me of the old Soviet saying: "We pretend to work and the bosses pretend to pay us."

I've always liked that joke.  Smile

All my life, I've worked by free lance contract.

You'd be amazed how many of my employers tried to wriggle out of what they legally owed me. So I took 'em to court.

So the variation on your old joke is simple. The boss isn't always right. And the worker isn't always wrong.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMxCtrlr From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2485 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2771 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6):
I look forward to the day when workers stand up for themselves and take responsibility for their own lives instead of waiting for someone else to do it for them.

We have seen that day already. It's called labor unions and most people think there isn't a need for them any longer. Union workers have a little thing called a contract (that doesn't seem to mean anything to management except when management wants to enforce something) and a recourse called a strike (which the government and scab workers have usurped to the point of ineffectivity).

MxCtrlr  bouncy 



DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
User currently onlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6784 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 2):
Unless the PGBC (not PBGC) itself defaults, the taxpayers have no liability here.

Default is very much a possibility given their liabilities.

And an irresponsible judge in Wedoff who let them get off scot-free without selling assets, presenting a recovery plan ASAP and getting on with the business of being an airline.

Shit or get off the pot, UAL. But they keep getting more time, more time, more time.

And the pension obligation was obliterated with the stroke of a pen. Disgusting.

Believe me, the taxpayers WILL be stuck with the bill. The PBGC is ultimately insured by the Federal government, which is you and me pal.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3802 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2593 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6):
I look forward to the day when workers stand up for themselves and take responsibility for their own lives instead of waiting for someone else to do it for them.

How were UA F/As and othert labor groups not taking responsibility for their own lives in expecting UA to make good on the promise to which UA had contractually agreed? When it comes to the point where a legal contract can be rendered null and void because a business who agreed to same refuses to honor their contractual promise -- and you see no problem with such crass immorality -- it would seem the only remaining avenue to "take responsibility for their own lives" would be to buy several acres in a rural setting and become totally self-sufficient by living off the land.

After all, by the same arguments UA used for breaking their promise, any financial institution could also walk away from their IRA, Kemp-Roth, 401K, etc (ultimately, even PGIC) obligations to workers who took responsibility for establishing their own retirement funds by claiming they "don't have the money" (for whatever reasons) to pay their contractual obligations.


User currently offlineMidway2airtran From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2520 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6):
I look forward to the day when workers stand up for themselves and take responsibility for their own lives instead of waiting for someone else to do it for them.

I think Zvezda is talking more in the way of Financial knowlege. The problem for many out there is that they get too attached to their jobs by putting themselves into the wrong kind of debt, not knowing the wealth to those opportunities to be free of that burden. In order to function in a capitalistic society, everybody needs basic financial knowlege to make it or else! Kind of strange that it tends to lack here in the US, hence the wealth divide we see these days.

As for the UA-PGBC deal, I side with the FA's in this one as it is wrong throw that large burden out and open the floodgates has UAL has done. This also includes the fact that UAL managment attempted to hide their lack of funding the pensions throughout past years. That's damage not only to the employees who earned them, but stock-holders and ESOPer's too! It's not a "business move", what has been done was ethically and morally wrong! I hope Lawmakers, as they did met this week on the issue, will come up with some major and quick reform before we all (taxpayers) start paying the tab.

The last thing we need is more excuses like this for the goverment to impose more ridiculous taxes on the Industry and passengers!!!!



"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
User currently offlineAndersjt From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 390 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2483 times:

If the PBGC defaults why is that United's responsibility? They sold the premiums to United to guarantee their pensions - the PBGC (and if you will the government, thus the taxpayers) took the risk. The PBGC is the watchdog for employer sponsored pension plans - and if there were conditions at United that should have raised flags for them long ago - why didn't they plan for it?

These flight attendants, some as much as 40+ years of service, have never been highly paid, and have had to put up with a lot of sh** from us the traveling public. The thought of a pension that would be waiting for them when they retired, made it bearable for them and helped them keep their commitment to the airline. While their pensions do not go away, they now face significantly reduced payments, and at their age, they do not know how to make up for it - I would be upset too. On a recent flight between DEN and IAD, I had the chance to speak with a 38 year veteran who told me she was now looking at her monthly pension benefits being cut by $700.00+ per month. When you're 60 years old, how is someone supposed to make up for that? When she does retire will she find she has to work at McDonald's to make ends meet?

You cannot blame the flight attendants for wanting to fight this, but you also cannot blame United for many conditions they are facing that have been beyond their control. They are just trying to survive. I'd like to see some of you advocates for UA's demise face similar circumstances, especially those of you who may have 40 years of service with your company. If you don't like the fact that the PBGC is there and has taken this on - then take your fight to the government - not the airline.

We all have to remember that once UA emerges from BK - it will not be the same United. Employees and shareholders alike have all lost their equity stakes and it will be the creditors and new equity investors who will own the airline. However, what will emerge is hopefully a more efficient United that can operate effectively under current market conditions - and you still have serveral thousand employees still working. I would rather see that than have a situation where my tax dollars are helping prop up the PBGC and several thousand people who are out of work.

On a philosophical note - United is a long-time U.S. institution recognized worldwide. Its demise would be just another reminder of the devastating effects from the 9/11 attacks.



Oh how I long for the day when the skies were truly Friendly!
User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2481 times:

Quoting Andersjt (Reply 15):
You cannot blame the flight attendants for wanting to fight this, but you also cannot blame United for many conditions they are facing that have been beyond their control.

Why not? You don't want to blame the management for not taking responsibility for their bad judgements? They get rewarded with contract extensions, bonuses, pensions that will never get changed to lower figures, stock options, etc. But everybody else will just have to suffer?


User currently offlineCTHEWORLD From Mayotte, joined Dec 2004, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2435 times:

Quoting Andersjt (Reply 15):
If the PBGC defaults why is that United's responsibility? They sold the premiums to United to guarantee their pensions - the PBGC (and if you will the government, thus the taxpayers) took the risk. The PBGC is the watchdog for employer sponsored pension plans - and if there were conditions at United that should have raised flags for them long ago - why didn't they plan for it?

EXACTLY...this isn't UAL's fault, it is the Federal Government's fault. Blame the Senators and Reps you voted for, they sit on the finance committe, commerce committee, trade comission etc...


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2434 times:

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 2):
PBGC = Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation

Thank you. I can't seem to keep it straight in my mind.

Quoting Andersjt (Reply 15):
When you're 60 years old, how is someone supposed to make up for that? When she does retire will she find she has to work at McDonald's to make ends meet?

The same people on this forum that bitch and moan about "overpaid" flight attendants will be the SAME ones who walk into that McDonalds and bitch and moan to that same former flight attendant that their 99-cent burger is a little cold. They don't care...someone they can shit on because they're the ones paying and expect to be waited on.


User currently offlineGalapagapop From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 910 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2400 times:

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 18):

The same people on this forum that bitch and moan about "overpaid" flight attendants will be the SAME ones who walk into that McDonalds and bitch and moan to that same former flight attendant that their 99-cent burger is a little cold. They don't care...someone they can shit on because they're the ones paying and expect to be waited on.

Yeah sure.

How about you try working for 40 years as an FA at UAL no less and go through all the crap, BK's, underperforming management, pay cuts, pay raises, new cities, station closures, and then see that one thing that has kept them in the industry that whole time be taken away and substituted with plastic knock-off of the old thing. Now these people can only work so so many more years and then what? They retire and are demoted to the most demeaning jobs around and their again at the bottom of the ladder. And UA can just continue on screwing more employees, and giving themselves pats on the back. This doesn't include all the crap the ex and current employees at other airlines will go through now that the flood gates have opened and soon they will find their pensions with the PBGC. And all their work over years ruined because of a inferior carrier just didn't know when to give up. I hope UA is shut down like it deserves to be, or at least, remove Tilton and his head in the clouds boys!


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2385 times:

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 19):
Yeah sure.

How about you try working for 40 years as an FA at UAL no less and go through all the crap, BK's, underperforming management, pay cuts, pay raises, new cities, station closures, and then see that one thing that has kept them in the industry that whole time be taken away and substituted with plastic knock-off of the old thing. Now these people can only work so so many more years and then what? They retire and are demoted to the most demeaning jobs around and their again at the bottom of the ladder. And UA can just continue on screwing more employees, and giving themselves pats on the back. This doesn't include all the crap the ex and current employees at other airlines will go through now that the flood gates have opened and soon they will find their pensions with the PBGC. And all their work over years ruined because of a inferior carrier just didn't know when to give up. I hope UA is shut down like it deserves to be, or at least, remove Tilton and his head in the clouds boys!

You COMPLETELY misunderstood me. The people on this forum (I'm not one of them) who don't care about the daily issues of F/As and other airline employees and what they deal with on a daily basis would have the same indifference if they met them in a place like McDonald's or Home Depot or wherever. They don't care....they're the ones who are only focused on a cheap fare and don't care about those who make it happen day in and day out. I have a parent who spent 35 years with UA, only to see his pension benefit reduced, like many of these flight attendants. Think I'm happy to see that happen to him? Not on your life. Think I'm happy with UA about it? Not at all. This industry is headed towards the McDonald's level...and I'm glad I'm not a part of it. Those who started years ago with the knowledge they'd have a pension and benefits, and have to see it reduced all of a sudden have my sympathy.


User currently offlineCTHEWORLD From Mayotte, joined Dec 2004, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

Social Security is going the same way. If the SS system isn't moved from a defined benefit system to a defined contribution system that is invested safely and grows moderately, we will be hearing all of these same arguments in 20 years, except it will be most of the retired country, not 62,000 employees at a private company.

User currently offlineGalapagapop From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 910 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 20):
You COMPLETELY misunderstood me. The people on this forum (I'm not one of them) who don't care about the daily issues of F/As and other airline employees and what they deal with on a daily basis would have the same indifference if they met them in a place like McDonald's or Home Depot or wherever. They don't care....they're the ones who are only focused on a cheap fare and don't care about those who make it happen day in and day out. I have a parent who spent 35 years with UA, only to see his pension benefit reduced, like many of these flight attendants. Think I'm happy to see that happen to him? Not on your life. Think I'm happy with UA about it? Not at all. This industry is headed towards the McDonald's level...and I'm glad I'm not a part of it. Those who started years ago with the knowledge they'd have a pension and benefits, and have to see it reduced all of a sudden have my sympathy.

There was supposed to be another quote bubble before it, it was in no way directed at you. Sorry.

BTW I feel for you man, my uncle was a Pilot at UA over 20 years ago and trust me I know what this will mean.

Cheers!


User currently onlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2307 times:

Quoting Andersjt (Reply 15):
These flight attendants, some as much as 40+ years of service, have never been highly paid, and have had to put up with a lot of sh** from us the traveling public.



Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 19):
ut you try working for 40 years as an FA at UAL no less and go through all the crap, BK's, underperforming management, pay cuts, pay raises, new cities, station closures, and then see that one thing that has kept them in the industry that whole time be taken away and substituted with plastic knock-off of the old thing.

thats true, but it was THEIR choice to take up the job........I was sitting @ DFW departure terminal about a month ago and an AA F/A was sitting next to me yacking away on the cell phone about how she plans on getting "botox" shots before her friends birthday and this and that....

doesn't sound too much of "desparation" to me..... sarcastic 

also, part of their job is to deal with cranky people..what else do they get paid for or to do? It certainly isn't saving someone's life in the ER everyday or getting shot at by a bunch of hoodlums......To me, it seems that they sit around in the back and read magazines (which I see most of the old AA battleaxes doing anyway -I'm an elite AA member, I give 90% of my business to them).

I see this on other air carriers too...the attidute many give is as if they are doing ME a favour...bugger off if you don't like your job...there are plenty others who will be more than happy to take over your job.



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineLuvfa From United States of America, joined May 2005, 445 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2287 times:

Actually passengers safety is exactly what we are paid to do. However if passengers such as yourself don't think of this; than we know it has been a good, uneventful flight. As far as dealing with hoodlums did you forget 9/11?

25 StevenUhl777 : Understood. Thanks for clarifying that. Unless your'e a senior exec. at the airlines, it's a bad deal all around. Soon, the pension issue won't be li
26 ChiGB1973 : Maybe I am playing devil's advocate here, but what about personal responsibility? I agree that this is a terrible thing for the United workers, but, a
27 StevenUhl777 : ChiGB1973: You make some excellent points...and you're right, one can never rely on one single source of retirement income. Younger workers (regardles
28 Ckfred : Zvezda: A pension or definded-benefit plan isn't a ponzi scheme. A company puts money into the plan, based on formulas that include years of service,
29 UALFAson : Actually, it sort of is. For workers who started 25, 30, 40 years ago, the typical course of action was for an employer to offer a defined benefit pe
30 Ikramerica : I think what he is trying to say is that one should NEVER not plan for their own retirement. In other words, you can have the pension and such, but yo
31 Mariner : I don't know what "entertainment union" you mean, but it is a long way from my experience. Without my "entertainment union", the Writers Guild, I wou
32 Post contains images Zvezda : I'll set aside the personal insult and try to answer your question. If I sign a contract to enter a ponzi scheme and a notary stamps it and then a ju
33 CTHEWORLD : It isn't true. The senate hearings they just had prove that. One of the senators used United as an example of a company that did everything within th
34 IFly4UAL : How do you know this person's situation? How do you know that her income as a f/a is supporting her lifestyle? How do you know that she doesn't have
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
UA Flight Attendants Object To Plan Confirmation posted Wed Jan 11 2006 23:30:02 by KarlB737
UA Flight Attendants Could Strike Tonight posted Tue May 10 2005 16:24:42 by Rsmith6621a
UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos posted Fri Nov 19 2004 14:11:59 by JMV
UA: Flight Attendants Recalled posted Fri Jan 16 2004 09:30:25 by FA4UA
In Memory Of The AA And UA Flight Attendants posted Wed Sep 11 2002 23:54:26 by Canadi>nBoy
NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike posted Tue Nov 28 2006 23:05:39 by KarlB737
UA Warns Flight Attendants Union About Strike posted Fri May 6 2005 23:59:19 by Leelaw
UA Files 1113 Against Flight Attendants posted Wed Apr 13 2005 18:53:58 by Tu154
UA Recalling --1,200-- Flight Attendants! posted Fri Feb 22 2002 00:36:01 by Flyua
Attention AC Flight Attendants... posted Sun Dec 10 2006 06:10:54 by AC330