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Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA  
User currently offlineFlyinTLow From Germany, joined Oct 2004, 519 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5609 times:

hey everyone!

Have a question about the days when PA was still around with their hub in FRA. Unfortunately I am just a little too young to remember anything about that.

When PA had their hub in FRA, did the fly out of one terminal all the time. From what I understand, their operations were quite large, so did they for example get the entire terminal C for themselves or maybe one of the "B-heads" in Terminal B?


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What kind of aircraft did PA have stationed in FRA, and how many? Did they also have long-haul aircraft stationed, or did they just rotate throughout the PA network?

Thanks for any information anyone can provide!

Cheers,

- T-Low

[Edited 2005-06-09 12:42:53]


- When dreams take flight, follow them -
61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMarkATL From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5479 times:

As I remember they were scattered all over B with the Berlin shuttle flights always leaving from close in gates right after security near the "bus station" gates.


"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 41
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5436 times:

What were the destinations served by the FRA Pan am hub ?


A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5397 times:

The operation was from the B part of Terminal one, including the check-in area. The Internal German fleet was stationed in Berlin, first at THF and later at TXL. That gave PanAm even more freedom since, before the reunification of Germany, the US and allies were the sovereign powers in Berlin. Hence, actually Berlin was the European hub and PA had flights from there to HAM/HAJ/FRA/NUE/STR/MUC, the other destinations served by BE/AF. They also had flights to ZRH and LHR, another PA hub in Europe which had also direct flights to HAM and DUS.

From the FRA hub the flights went to LHR (at least twice daily 727s connecting with 747 under the same flight (including the tragic 101), JFK,MIA,IST,BOM, and that list is not complete. I am not sure if LAX and SFO had non-stop flights or just through flights.

By any standards, the PanAm operation in Germany at the time was huge and LH took a while to overtake them. They had many German employess and a good number ofn Americans stayed here after retirement. The 727s had Germany names like "Clipper Flotte Motte" or "Clipper Langer Lulatsch" which are typical Berlin lingo.

Planes operated, well, I have seen the DC6's until the late 60s, after that they had 727-190, 727-200, 737-100 and A300 / A310 on the European network. Intercont services saw the Dc8, 707 and 747-100/200s as well as the SP.

Well, sweet nostalgia. I loved PanAm as an airline I flew many times and did business with as a freight forwarder. These times are gone and they don't come back, the business is different today, much different.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMarkATL From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5344 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
(at least twice daily 727s connecting with 747 under the same flight (including the tragic 101)

That was a great post so I'm not trying to slam you here. However it was the tragic PA103. I remember this vividly as I drove two friends from Bremen to the Hamburg Airport. They both went HAM-LHR on Pan Am, one connected to SFO the other to JFK (PA103). They were both fellow GIs lucky enough to get leave at Christmas. Many of us requested to attend the funeral on Long Island at our own expense. We were denied permission because the death was not "in the line of duty".



"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5303 times:

From FRA, where did they fly to in the USA with those 747s?

User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5305 times:

Nonstop or one stop PA destinations from Frankfurt:

July 7, 1981 timtetable:

Ankara
Bahrain
Bangkok
Belgrade
Berlin
Bombay
Bucharest
Delhi
Dubai
Istanbul
Karachi
London
Miami
Munich
New York
San Fransisco
Tampa
Warsaw

May 24, 1990 Timetable

Ankara
Athens
Belgrade
Berlin
Bombay
Budapest
Bucharest
Delhi
Dubrovnik
Istanbul
Karachi
Krakow
London
Los Angeles
Miami
Moscow
Nairobi
New York
Nurmeburg
Prague
Riyadh
San Fransisco
Warsaw
Washington


User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5288 times:

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 5):
From FRA, where did they fly to in the USA with those 747s?

Miami and New York flights were 747s. Washington nonstop was a 747 from 1987 on. The Tampa nonstop was operated with a former National DC10. (after all it was an inherited National route)


User currently offlineBHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1368 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5285 times:

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 5):
From FRA, where did they fly to in the USA with those 747s?

JFK, MIA and IAD I believe. I don't believe LAX and SFO were in the mix. I can vouch for JFK for sure, since when I left Germany after my two year tour I boarded a PanAm 747 bound for JFK on June 1, 1980. Remember it well, the flight was about 3 hours late leaving FRA, which made me miss my connection at JFK for a TW flight to STL. Ended up taking a limo to LGA and caught the last flight out to STL..

25 years goes by very quickly..


User currently offlineMarkATL From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5262 times:

In the late eighties LAX and SFO were being done from FRA with the then ancient 747s. I think both ended when Gulf War started. Between the downturn in trans-Atlantic traffic and Pan Am's massive CRAF obligations they could no longer could sustain the routes.


"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
User currently offline777D From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5257 times:

Just imagine if Pan Am still existed today. They would be a very powerful carrier. LHR and FRA as hubs, flying to all sorts of destinations around the globe. Boeings flying everywhere. Sadly that did not happen. Perhaps they would have ruled the skies from various points from the USA and from their foreign hubs. This is a "what if" situation. TWA also had a sizeable operation until they hit hard times.

User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5225 times:

Quoting 777D (Reply 10):
Just imagine if Pan Am still existed today. They would be a very powerful carrier. LHR and FRA as hubs

Whilst it would be great if PanAm existed today, in the events that happened it is highly unlikely that they would still have hubs at LHR and FRA. I think it has previously been pointed out that the FRA hub only existed as the post WW2 treaty did not allow a German carrier to fly on some domestic routes, so this is where PanAm came in at FRA, along with BEA and AF. When LH was permitted to operate German domestic routes without restrictions previously imposed, presumably the PanAm operation at FRA would have had to shut down or be scaled down.

Somehow I cannot see PanAm being allowed to operate a hub from LHR. True, they might have had the slots but the UK/US agreement would probably not have allowed a US carrier to have a hub at LHR unless a British carrier could have similar rights in the US.

FYI many UK charter airlines had aircraft based in Berlin to fly Berliners to tourist hotspost, as West German carriers were at the time not allowed to operate any flights from Berlin's airports.



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineFlyingZacko From Germany, joined May 2005, 583 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5215 times:

PanHAM:

You really did your homework. Your knowledge is very impressive!

Quoting 777D (Reply 10):
TWA also had a sizeable operation until they hit hard times.

PA and TW both with pretty sizable foreign operations going bankrupt. You just cannot miss the similarity. Really sad, but that's the industry we work in!



Canon 40D + 24-70 f/2.8 L + 70-200 f/4 L + Speedlite 430EX
User currently offlineMarkATL From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5193 times:

Quoting BCAL (Reply 11):
Somehow I cannot see PanAm being allowed to operate a hub from LHR

Sorry dude but these route authorities still belong to UA. They transferred the LHR slots to Lufthansa. However the route authorities still exist under the Bermuda II agreement. As for the FRA hub, Delta still holds these (granted cold war relic) beyond Germany authorities. The domestic German operation was officially sold to Lufthansa thus killing these authorities.



"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
User currently offlineA999 From Norway, joined Mar 2004, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5164 times:

Don`t forget the RTW flights PA1/2 which also went daily through FRA.

User currently offlineFlyinTLow From Germany, joined Oct 2004, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5141 times:

Quoting BCAL (Reply 11):
Somehow I cannot see PanAm being allowed to operate a hub from LHR. True, they might have had the slots but the UK/US agreement would probably not have allowed a US carrier to have a hub at LHR unless a British carrier could have similar rights in the US

Ok, then a different question right there:

Where did Pan Am, TWA, and Eastern come into the Bermuda II agreement? What rights did those airlines have to LHR?

Quoting BCAL (Reply 11):

Whilst it would be great if PanAm existed today, in the events that happened it is highly unlikely that they would still have hubs at LHR and FRA. I think it has previously been pointed out that the FRA hub only existed as the post WW2 treaty did not allow a German carrier to fly on some domestic routes, so this is where PanAm came in at FRA, along with BEA and AF. When LH was permitted to operate German domestic routes without restrictions previously imposed, presumably the PanAm operation at FRA would have had to shut down or be scaled down.

Very true. But on the other side. PA would prolly still consider a hub to go to various destinations in Africa and India. So they would have prolly had to make up their mind what hub to choose. And then the question of alliances would have played a major role in that decision as well?! It would be interesting to say the least if PA would still be around today...



- When dreams take flight, follow them -
User currently offlineMd95 From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5130 times:

Pan Am not only had a hub in FRA but also from LHR they had a bunch of flights. I remember taking a 727 to Munich via Amsterdam.


dario
User currently offlineMarkATL From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5106 times:

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 15):
Where did Pan Am, TWA, and Eastern come into the Bermuda II agreement? What rights did those airlines have to LHR?

I know TWA had some beyond LHR authorities, but not much. I know they had an LHR/LGW-FRA that DL picked up on an abandonment (LGW only). As for PA(now UA) the beyond LHR authorities are numerous and still in effect. The LHR slots on the other hand are pretty hard to get a hold of.



"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5100 times:

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 15):
Eastern come into the Bermuda II agreement

You are confusing EA with another Miami based carrier National. Had the Eastern/National merger been approved I assume EA would have gained National's LHR rights under Bermuda II. Instead, the CAB rejected the merger and allowed PA to buy NA thus limiting Heathorw to only two US carriers under Bermuda II.


User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5097 times:

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 15):
Very true. But on the other side. PA would prolly still consider a hub to go to various destinations in Africa and India. So they would have prolly had to make up their mind what hub to choose. And then the question of alliances would have played a major role in that decision as well?! It would be interesting to say the least if PA would still be around today...

If PA were still around today these flights would operate from Frankfurt, unless PA were involved in Global alliance with someone else. Sky Team would be logical because Pan Am's operation at Paris was never very large, as oppossed to TWA who had the biulk of Paris-USA traffic. On the other hand TWA was not very strong at Frankfurt, so perhaps they would have been in the Star Alliance to enhance that traffic.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 11):
Somehow I cannot see PanAm being allowed to operate a hub from LHR. True, they might have had the slots but the UK/US agreement would probably not have allowed a US carrier to have a hub at LHR unless a British carrier could have similar rights in the US.

Several PA flights to/from LHR had restriction on the carrying of local traffic. Flights to/from Oslo, Stockholm, Brussells, Amsterdam and Athens were not permitted to carry anything but connecting traffic. Pan Am was not allowed to sell tickets from LHR to Indian or Mideast destinations via Frankfurt either until sometime in the mid to late 1980s.

[Edited 2005-06-09 22:17:41]

User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5023 times:

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 4):

That was a great post so I'm not trying to slam you here. However it was the tragic PA103. I remember this vividly as I drove two friends from Bremen to the Hamburg Airport. They both went HAM-LHR on Pan Am, one connected to SFO the other to JFK (PA103). They were both fellow GIs lucky enough to get leave at Christmas. Many of us requested to attend the funeral on Long Island at our own expense. We were denied permission because the death was not "in the line of duty".



You are right, it was flight 103. And it was the 727-100 of cource, the 190 was a typing error.

Quoting FlyingZacko (Reply 12):
PanHAM:

You really did your homework. Your knowledge is very impressive!

That was actually a quick one just by memory, that's why the destinations are incomplete, I would have to dig deep to get the full board, but someone else did it already.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 11):

Whilst it would be great if PanAm existed today, in the events that happened it is highly unlikely that they would still have hubs at LHR and FRA. I think it has previously been pointed out that the FRA hub only existed as the post WW2 treaty did not allow a German carrier to fly on some domestic routes, so this is where PanAm came in at FRA, along with BEA and AF. When LH was permitted to operate German domestic routes without restrictions previously imposed, presumably the PanAm operation at FRA would have had to shut down or be scaled down.
.

To answer that question - look at NRT and UA + NW + FX operating with full traffic rights beyond NRT (and KIX/NGO) to other Asian destinations. That status quo would remain until today and the US certianly would not have renegotiated these "grandfather" rights. LH might enjoy some fifth freedom rights beyond the USA, which the actually did in the 70s from JFK with alternating stops MBJ/KIN/BOG/UIO/GYE/LIM/SCL served by 707s and later DC10s. They might still have these rights but don't use them.

LHR is another story with Bermuda 2, the US wants oipen skies but the Brits block that because of Heathrow access.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineFlyingZacko From Germany, joined May 2005, 583 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4940 times:

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 17):
I know TWA had some beyond LHR authorities, but not much. I know they had an LHR/LGW-FRA that DL picked up on an abandonment (LGW only). As for PA(now UA) the beyond LHR authorities are numerous and still in effect. The LHR slots on the other hand are pretty hard to get a hold of.

So let me get this straight:

the original Bermuda II was that PA, AA, and TW had rights into LHR? For other flights, PA used LGW, which DL later picked up, while PA's LHR rights were bought up by UA?



Canon 40D + 24-70 f/2.8 L + 70-200 f/4 L + Speedlite 430EX
User currently offlineMarkATL From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4863 times:

PAs LHR authority was assumed by UA and TWs LHR authority was assumed by AA. Bermuda II never allowed more than two US and two UK carriers into LHR. Any of the remaining PA or TW London authorities regardless of weather they were a LHR eligible gateway had to be flown into LGW after they transferred their LHR rights to the successor (PA to UA & TW to AA).


"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4855 times:

UA did not even fly to Europe in `77. NA was the third US airline to serve LHR.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26338 posts, RR: 76
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4850 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
I am not sure if LAX and SFO had non-stop flights or just through flights.

Well, having flown the LAX flight, I can assure you it was non-stop

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
737-100

-200. PA never had the -100

Quoting FlyingZacko (Reply 21):
the original Bermuda II was that PA, AA, and TW had rights into LHR?

PA, NA and TW. AA did not get LHR rights until TW sold their rights to them



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
25 Kkfla737 : Pan Am flew to LGW from Houston between 1980 and 1983. PA's other flights to London all were from Heathrow as designated by Bermuda II : New York, Wa
26 Hawk44 : MarkATL, just wondering are you talking about the two DSS agents that were on PA 103? Hawk44
27 Laxintl : Indeed PA150/PA151 remember it well. Flew them several times myself. Was even a WorldPass platinum member those days!
28 Wingedarrow : And what about the presence of PA in FCO? As FlyinTLow I'm too young to rember, but I know they had a lot of traffic coming and going to/from Rome...
29 FlyinTLow : It's really impressive to see the gigantic operation of PA around the world. 7 destinations from LHR! That has to be impressive. What did TW and NA se
30 PanHAM : PA and TW mostly duplicated their LHR ops over the times, they both had LHR/JFK, connected from FRA through LHR with the exception that TW operated 7
31 EDDM : Oooh! This sounds interesting. Any more info on those flights? Routings, equipment, whatever?
32 Post contains images BCAL : PA001 San Francisco-Honolulu-Tokyo-HongKong-Bangkok-Rangoon-Calcutta-Karachi-Tehran-Istanbul- Frankfurt-London-New York-San Francisco PA002 was in th
33 RootsAir : I remeber PA coming with 727 to GVA. Where did these come from. FRA or LHR
34 Post contains links Stirling : PANAM 1959 ROUTE MAP PANAM 1969 ROUTE MAP Unfortunately these scans have visible signs of aging on the folds of the timetable, which correspond to whe
35 EDDM : Thank you very much, BCAL, for sharing this! Do you know how long that trip took? When did PA operate this flight? What was the cost for F? For Y?
36 Dtwclipper : What many people forget, is that PA103 had two equipment changes. 727-200 FRA-LHR, 747 FRA-JFK, and 727-200 JFK-DTW.
37 Stirling : PA1 Dep LAX 0815 Arr HNL 1145 Dep HNL 1300 Arr NRT 1650 +1 Dep NRT 1800 Arr HKG 2140 Dep HKG 2300 Arr DEL 0350 +1 Dep DEL 0500 Arr THR 0725 Dep THR 08
38 BCAL : @ Stirling The route and times you quoted for PA001/002 must have been during the 70s. Was the service then operated with 747s? Sorry, I do not know t
39 Clipper002 : BCAL, Yes, the round the world trips were operated with the 747 as well. The trip actually took 2 1/2 days. When it was 707 it flew in a 32/94 configu
40 Kkfla737 : Yup National operated from all those cities and Zurich as well straight to the Miami hub where connections were possible to domestic cities and via P
41 FlyinTLow : How many flights did PA operate on a normal day? I mean just looking at those route maps, it seems like all carriers known today look like peanuts!
42 BHMNONREV : Back in the 70's and into the 80's, TW served four cities in the US from LHR: New York/JFK Boston Chicago Los Angeles Philadelphia came along later w
43 Kkfla737 : Pan Am operated between 15 and 20, Int'l flights a day from Frankfurt. The IGS services ithin Germany usually totaled 15 flights a day as well. These
44 Avalon : I flew Pan Am from Lax To JFK, then JFK to Paris CDG in on new years' day, 1986, straight after transferring from a Qantas flight from Melbourne ( I s
45 Clipper002 : There have been numerous threads on this subject. Go to a search and you'll find hundreds of posts referring to Pan Am's demise. Rgds, Ed
46 Stirling : Mon-Fri only. Not all flights operated 7 days a week. Amount of flights correlated to aircraft. More with 737, less with 727. Only around 10 actual f
47 Tundra767 : WOW thanks for the history lesson guys! I always love hearing stories of the great PAN AM. What I would give for a quick flash back to the early 80's!
48 A999 : BCAL In 1980 I had to go to Japan and the US on business trips. I got the opportunity to bring my wife and we decided to combine the trips as we learn
49 Kkfla737 : TWA did some beyond service from Frankfurt in the early 90s. Istanbul, Berlin, Copenhagen and Vienna were served.
50 Dc863 : B terminal was the location for almost every PA flight. B40 was used for many flights to East Europe with 727s and some 737s. From B40 you were taken
51 BCAL : Thanks to Clipper 002 and A999 for their replies. PA001/002 has a special place in my memories, as in the late 60s and early 70s my father was BEA Sta
52 FlyinTLow : Thanks for the detailed answer. Did PA have a lounge in FRA? (kinda stupid question, if they had a coach in IST, they prolly had an entire hotel in F
53 Kkfla737 : There was a Clipper Longue for sure at FRA. I spent some time between flights from Miami and onward to Delhi in the mid to late 80s.
54 Dc863 : Yes FRA had a Clipper Club which I visited several times back in the'80s(after flying in via PA 72 from JFK) usually waiting for LH 360 to Belgrade. I
55 FlyinTLow : Does anyone know if there are pictures of the lounge? Would be interesting to see!
56 Dc863 : I have a picture of the JFK lounge somewhere. I'll have to find it.
57 FlyinTLow : Interesting enough! Where in their terminal was their lounge located?
58 Antonovman : FlyinTLow it was in terminal B,before the new terminal d was built there was stairs in the middle of the terminal going to the first floor, it was rig
59 Panamair : Actually, the LAX-FRA nonstop in the eighties was PA150/151. The Flight 150 series was from JFK to LIS/BCN/NCE in the early 70s. In the eighties, the
60 Post contains images Dc863 : The PA Clipper Club at JFK was in the departure area. You had to take an elevator up tot he second level. Out of the elevator you came to the door of
61 TransIsland : The Berlin flights always left from the same gate; I think it was B42. AFAIK, all LH Berlin flights still leave from that same gate.
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