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AI's Invasion Of FRA  
User currently offlineFlyinTLow From Germany, joined Oct 2004, 521 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6264 times:

Just the other day I saw 5!!! 747s in FRA. Where in the world are they coming from and where are they going to?


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What new destinations is AI planning on adding via FRA? I heard rumors a while back of them wanting to add IAH to their network. But is this decision pending on fleet growth? And what are the new B747 Combis doing?

[Edited 2005-06-09 20:47:55]


- When dreams take flight, follow them -
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5174 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6159 times:

Yeah--there was a lengthy debate over IAH vs. DFW for AI. They may route the flights through LHR though.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineVivek0072 From India, joined Jun 2005, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6129 times:

I read it somewhere , do not remember , but AI may have plans of making FRA as their second hub, with more Boeings joing their fleet and no space at BOM it did seem possible.


That life's most failures were people who did not realise how close they were to success when they gave up. - Edison.
User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2046 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6097 times:

Quoting Vivek0072 (Reply 2):

this is subject to imposition of transit visa by Germany, and relative compliance of CDG folks. As of today, the only constraint is fleet strength.
rgds
VT-ASJ



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineFlyinTLow From Germany, joined Oct 2004, 521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6047 times:

So is AI maybe even considering basing an aircraft or two in FRA? Or will the flights just be routed through FRA?


- When dreams take flight, follow them -
User currently offlineShawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6020 times:

Quoting Aseem (Reply 3):
this is subject to imposition of transit visa by Germany, and relative compliance of CDG folks. As of today, the only constraint is fleet strength.

Is CDG a better hub than FRA (visa aside)? I thought after the UK, Germany had the most O&D traffic to India. While FRA and CDG have good traffic to the USA, I thought AI had problems filling the seats of pax that de-planed in CDG for the onward to India.


User currently offlineLazyshaun From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 548 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5999 times:

Probably because they have no more slots left at LHR...
They'll probably move onto CDG sooner or later...



I came. I saw. I conquered
User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2887 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5993 times:

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 5):
Is CDG a better hub than FRA (visa aside)? I thought after the UK, Germany had the most O&D traffic to India. While FRA and CDG have good traffic to the USA, I thought AI had problems filling the seats of pax that de-planed in CDG for the onward to India.

You are right about O&D traffic from Germany--but only after UK as you mentioned and ofcourse USA.
FRA would def be a better hub, but i think that transit visa is hurting AIs expansion plans from FRA.

For future expansion they should route all USA flights via LHR and keep the current ones at FRA, and the CANADA flights through CDG and secondary airports like MAN/BHX/MUC. as there will be great 5th freedom from these flights


User currently offlineTheBigOne From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5843 times:

Quoting FlyinTLow (Thread starter):
Just the other day I saw 5!!! 747s in FRA. Where in the world are they coming from and where are they going to?

FlyinTLow - In answer to your question, these aircraft transit FRA on their way to LAX, ORD, from BOM / DEL.



Reach for the stars - they are closer than you think!
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5834 times:

You saw 5 747s because 2 of them were running on multiple day delays after being AOGs at LAX.

User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5783 times:

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 7):
For future expansion they should route all USA flights via LHR and keep the current ones at FRA, and the CANADA flights through CDG and secondary airports like MAN/BHX/MUC. as there will be great 5th freedom from these flights

Does UK not require transit visas? I think AI needs a scissor hub, without which they can never offer convenient connectivity from multiple US cities to multiple Indian cities, like LH does through FRA. If AI could offer EWR/MAA-BLR or SFO/MAA-BLR, or LAX-MAA-BLR, one stop through FRA, they could realize a much higher yield even with older planes and perceived poor service. Convenient connections and reliable service are more important factors for many.

LHR gates may be difficult to acquire, and AI already codeshares with LH, which suggests that LHR is not a good choice for expansion.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4009 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5675 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 10):
I think AI needs a scissor hub, without which they can never offer convenient connectivity from multiple US cities to multiple Indian cities,

That scissor hub should be BOM. The planes to do it are 777-200LR and A340-500.



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User currently offlineFlyingZacko From Germany, joined May 2005, 583 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5635 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 11):
That scissor hub should be BOM. The planes to do it are 777-200LR and A340-500.

As much as I am a huge fan and very much in favor of AI's expansion, I don't think the airline is anywhere in a position to acquire those type of aircraft anytime soon. It's still a carrier in government hands, and a government, as we all know, for some reason are rather slow in making decisions... One day they will get there, but for now, they need to go for the alternatives possible for them.



Canon 40D + 24-70 f/2.8 L + 70-200 f/4 L + Speedlite 430EX
User currently offlineShawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5575 times:

Quoting FlyingZacko (Reply 12):
As much as I am a huge fan and very much in favor of AI's expansion, I don't think the airline is anywhere in a position to acquire those type of aircraft anytime soon. It's still a carrier in government hands, and a government, as we all know, for some reason are rather slow in making decisions... One day they will get there, but for now, they need to go for the alternatives possible for them.

Well the 777LR was already selected. THe government of India is slow, but these aircraft will come sooner rather than latter. The gov would not have liberalized so much if they had no intention of buying the aircraft (part of the reason the GOI never liberalized so much before was because they weren't prepared to buy ore aircraft). Everything has been set in motion - more flights for foreign airlines, allowing private carriers to fly international = AI must get more planes or be rendered obsolete.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5531 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 11):
That scissor hub should be BOM. The planes to do it are 777-200LR and A340-500.

For one-stop flights, it is better to have your stop somewhere in EU, halfway through the journey, then to have one long and another very short flight using BOM as a scissor hub. The advantage BOM may have is that of scheduling flights for USA market without regards to EU stops-thus providing flights at more convenient hours.


User currently offlineShawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5515 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 14):
For one-stop flights, it is better to have your stop somewhere in EU, halfway through the journey, then to have one long and another very short flight using BOM as a scissor hub. The advantage BOM may have is that of scheduling flights for USA market without regards to EU stops-thus providing flights at more convenient hours.

I don't know, aside from BOM airport being crap, I think people are going to be surprised by the comfort of a nonstop USA to BOM and then connecting. I have always hated connecting in Europe at what amounts to 3am NY time. When I took the nonstop to SIN from EWR, it was great. You got settled, slept when you got tired and had a full eight hours. Plus BOM when it becomes a proper hub would have short connection times and greater options if original connection is missed (in Europe it is usually one flight a day). And yes, I hope the nonstops end the days of arriving India at 1am and leaving at 3am (I always feel sorry for the people welcoming and seeing us off in India).


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5462 times:

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 15):
Plus BOM when it becomes a proper hub would have short connection times and greater options if original connection is missed (in Europe it is usually one flight a day).

I see your point. Wouldn't Delhi make a better hub than BOM for USA market as it is the northernmost airport and can provide shorter connection to CCU and other markets in East/North and also serve MAA/BLR/HYD.


User currently offlineShawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5441 times:

DEL would location wise (I just used BOM as someone else mentioned it). That said, I think BOM will be the first hub for nonstops from the US simply because of the premium traffic that BOM has and the amount of O&D traffic. Right now BOM is the only city that could support a comprehensive array of nonstops to N. America (to say NYC, ORD, SFO, LAX, IAD, YYZ). The Indian carrier that can achieve close to this will really own the BOM based business traffic and then can work on bringing in the "gravy" from BLR, MAA, etc. Right now Indian carriers will do fine, but its just on tourist and ethnic traffic. They really need to "own" the premium traffic of a major city, and then see how the hub developes.

User currently offlineTRVYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1369 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5415 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 10):
Does UK not require transit visas?

Indian passport holder with a Permanent Resident/green card or a valid visa of Canada or USA and confirmed onward ticket can transit without visa through UK.

[Edited 2005-06-10 05:32:15]

User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5409 times:

Just heard from a friend from inside the aircraft on AI LAX-FRA-BOM flight. The flight is late for departure by one hour already, and will leave after another AI flight on the same route takes off first. This other flight is the delayed flight from yesterday.
My friend's flight is 100% full in economy and according to her about 10% of the passengers are Germans/Americans bound for FRA. This is much higher than the flight I took last July where the Germans/Americans were only about 2-3%. Looks like AI is able to attract a much higher share of LAX-FRA market.

[Edited 2005-06-10 05:55:03]

User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5327 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 19):
Just heard from a friend from inside the aircraft on AI LAX-FRA-BOM flight. The flight is late for departure by one hour already, and will leave after another AI flight on the same route takes off first. This other flight is the delayed flight from yesterday

He must have been on board VT-EVJ... it indeed was late, sked 1900 and departed 2025 or so was VT-AIM, who was sked at 1830 and got off at 1915. I jetted down to get shots as both were parked right next to one another! This is the 2nd time in 5 days that two AI 744s arrived within minutes of each other-- sunday was hilarious: As VT-AIM and VT-AID arrived with 10 minutes of each other and the tower got confused and couldn't figure out who was assigned gate 101 at Bradley and who got a far off remote gate! Both did some lengthy and serious tours of LAX taxiways as it was being worked out!

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineThunderbird1 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5325 times:

On Tuesday there were two 747s at LAX, which seems like it's exploding with AI activity lately as well (-EVJ and -AIM).

User currently offlineNisson From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5311 times:

Quoting Thunderbird1 (Reply 21):
On Tuesday there were two 747s at LAX, which seems like it's exploding with AI activity lately as well

READ THIS: http://web.mid-day.com/news/city/2005/june//111247.htm probably related, probably not, but its still trying to catch up on normal ops, due to damage of one 747-400.

[Edited 2005-06-10 08:02:44]

User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4957 times:

VT-AIM is suffering as the only combi in the fleet and dedicated to the LAX route, her AOG there a few weeks ago is still being felt through the system. Normally you would just cancel one flight and make up time but the loads are so busy at this time of year there simply isnt capacity to accomodate everyone!

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4869 times:

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 9):
You saw 5 747s because 2 of them were running on multiple day delays after being AOGs at LAX.

Makes Sense.
BTW AI def need those extra Aircraft.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
25 Masterluu : With every AI plane coming into LAX basically late or delayed for 23 hours. Or worse being cancelled for three or more days. This kind of activity fro
26 PanHAM : They can get a share of the market by price only. When PK was scheduling their NYC flights through FRA they were always the cheapest. What suprises m
27 FlyinTLow : Just as an example for their growing popularity. It was in some newspaper that said that the national soccer coach of Germany, Juergen Klinsmann, fle
28 BWI757 : What is a scissors hub? Never heard the term before. Thanks BWI757
29 HT : To my knowlegde: Imagine flight routes in the shape of a "X" with very long legs. Or: Its like a mild form of a hub with only 4 spokes: Say, 2 longha
30 BWI757 : Thank you! BWI757
31 BaliMorris : What's the story behind VT-AIM's AOG? I understand it involved radome damage, but was there a specific incident that caused this?
32 Shawnnyc : AI is fine with that, as they have a much lower cost structure than LH or UA and the German market is large enough for all the players. Plus I'm sure
33 PanHAM : A good example is QF at SIN, flighs come in from Eruope and exchange passengers going to BNE/SYD/MEL/ADL/PER/CNS/DRW
34 B747-437B : Slots cannot be "bought" as per EU policy. They can be "exchanged" and occasionally the exchange involves "other commercial considerations". Tomorrow
35 FlyinTLow : I also heard AI wants to get rid of some of their older A300s? Is there something to that? Are they maybe considering converting them to freighters? A
36 B747-437B : Air India donated all 3 of its A300 fleet to Ariana Afghanistan.
37 FlyinTLow : Are they even considering getting all-cargo aircraft then? I think they would definitly pay off for them!
38 CHI787ORD : I thought DEL was AI's second hub.
39 Masterluu : I can assure you that this is a lie. Lufthansa is the national soccer team sponsor and Mr Klinsmann flies Lufthansa on FRA-LAX. A busy person like hi
40 FlyinTLow : Of course I know that Lufthansa is the official carrier for the national soccer team, and the team and the trainer would never fly AI on anything off
41 HAWK21M : That could be the Answer.Probably He wanted to Experience AI. regds MEL
42 Kkfla737 : Pan Am @ FRA was the perfect example. With the exception of Berlin flights, the hub was mostly transcontinetal and passengers from several cities in
43 Post contains links JoyA380B747 : The Thread is almost same as that of mine- AIR INDIA Spotter's haven-FRA http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2120349
44 9V-SPF : I´m pretty sure that Mr Klinsmann doesn´t pay a single cent out of his own pocket for his regular trips between LA and Frankfurt. However, interest
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