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Cathay To Choose Between A340 And 777  
User currently offlineMrComet From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 540 posts, RR: 8
Posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 13749 times:

No mention of the 747ADV and this from a supposed launch customer. Does that mean it ain't happening?

"Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., Asia's second-most profitable airline, said it may add the Airbus SAS A340-600 or Boeing Co.'s 777-300ER for long-haul flights as the company expands its fleet to meet rising travel demand.

The airline has requested proposals from Airbus, Boeing, engine makers and leasing companies for an order of A340-600 or 777-300 planes after an evaluation of its aircraft needs for 2007 to 2012, Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said in the June issue of its internal magazine. "

From Bloomberg News

[Edited 2005-06-10 06:24:24]


The dude abides
79 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMrComet From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 540 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13661 times:

yeah but you'd think they would mention it at least if they were considering it..... nobody will go on the record in the airline industry that they are seriously interested in the 747 ADV except Cargolux.

Looks like they'll be ordering 777-300ERs. I don' think the A340-600 has a chance. Interestingly, they say they are interested in the 787 and A350 for later but the A350 should be in the competition as it is a bigger plane.



The dude abides
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9168 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13653 times:

Quoting MrComet (Thread starter):
No mention of the 747ADV and this from a supposed launch customer. Does that mean it ain't happening?

"Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., Asia's second-most profitable airline, said it may add the Airbus SAS A340-600 or Boeing Co.'s 777-300ER for long-haul flights as the company expands its fleet to meet rising travel demand.

The airline has requested proposals from Airbus, Boeing, engine makers and leasing companies for an order of A340-600 or 777-300 planes after an evaluation of its aircraft needs for 2007 to 2012, Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said in the June issue of its internal magazine. "

From Bloomberg News

Cathay Pacific is VERY interested in the B 747 Advanced and it is very likely that they will be the launch customer. They will likely place a large order for that.

However, the B 747 Advanced is not being offered yet and thus they cannot make a REQUEST FOR PROPOSAL for it. I am sure they will, once Boeing offers it formally.


User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13645 times:

Quoting Eksath (Reply 1):
The call for Airbus & Boeing proposals is just being done to make sure that they dont get sued by Airbus for not considering the Airbus product line before purchase of the 747ADV.

Well if you read the article you would realise the 747 Advanced has nothing to do with this RFP.

My feeling is that this issue would be much more easily solved if CX sorted out their twin engine policy regarding long-haul trans pacific flights. Aside from that it will be interesting to note the kind of proposals put forward by both Airbus and Boeing.

I also wonder how the order will be done, in regards to the split between the leased frames and actual airline orders.



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9168 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13560 times:

They will likely get the B 747 Advanced. Maybe not the A 380 though....

So what will they have eventually? My guess: B 777-200/300/300ER, A 350 and/or A 340-300, B 747 Advanced.......????


User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13514 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 5):
They will likely get the B 747 Advanced. Maybe not the A 380 though....

This RFP is only concerned with the selection of either the 77W or A346 and I think most likely a limited number of airframes.

I have little doubt that CX will look to the 747 Advanced at some stage but not in this order and probably not for sometime yet.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 5):
So what will they have eventually? My guess: B 777-200/300/300ER, A 350 and/or A 340-300, B 747 Advanced.......????

Eventually the long haul fleet will probably consist of 747's, 777's and maybe limited Airbus' although if Airbus were to win this order then it is likely to see those frames still operating with CX in the long run.



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 61
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13511 times:

If CX is indeed extremely interested in the 747ADV, as has been reported and widely claimed on these forums, perhaps Boeing could use that to their advantage and package a 773ER order with being the launch customer for the 747ADV.

User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13452 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
If CX is indeed extremely interested in the 747ADV, as has been reported and widely claimed on these forums, perhaps Boeing could use that to their advantage and package a 773ER order with being the launch customer for the 747ADV.

Ahhh now we're talking! That would be an interesting deal indeed. I think CX could possibly get away from this deal with a very liberal contract on ordering the 747 Advanced coupled with their order for 77W's plus options. That would certainly be a coup for Boeing and perhaps a way to get around not having the "authority to offer" yet...

A good point indeed!  Wink



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks ago) and read 13310 times:

Quotes from CX World

"CX has concluded that A340-600 or the B777-300ER can meet most of the airlines future long haul requirements"

"CX is very interested in A350 or B787, but as these will not be available until next decade, there is no need to be making any decisions now"

"The candidates studied as future standard long haul aircraft were B747ADV, B773ER, A346 and used B744"

"Niche aircraft were also evaluated to see if they could add extra value, ULH aircraft (B772LR, A345) hi-capacity (A380, B747ADV) and new generation "long thin" aircraft (B787/A350) for routes like Madrid/ Chicago"

Sounds like CX has decided that if it does get B747ADV, it will only be a few frames, and either/or with A380. The main replacement aircraft for B744/A340 will be A346/B773ER


User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks ago) and read 13274 times:

Quoting Lutfi (Reply 9):

Thanks Lufti... As the thread starter article suggests it appears the 744's and either 77W/A346 will carry the fleet until the B747Adv. and A380 (and others?) are evaluated at a later date.

Cheers!  Wink



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlineCarfield From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1918 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13137 times:

I honestly think that "price" will be the key factor on the future fleet decision. Despite problems with Airbus A340-600s, I believe that if Airbus offers a good enough price, CX will just buy the updated IGW.

If Boeing is willing to lower the price of its -300ERs, I also think that CX will change its twin engine policies.

I also think that if Boeing 747ADV will go ahead, CX will buy that instead...

Anyway, CX fleet decisions will not be made till next year.

Carfield


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9168 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13030 times:

CX is evaluating the A 380. Wonder if they will order it.... However, they are more interested in the B 747 Advanced and it is more likely that they will lean towards it.

Indeed CX is very interested in the B 747 Advanced. They have converted one passenger B 747-400 into freighter and will add 4 ex-SQ B 747-400s to the passenger fleet. A number of routes require the size of a B 747 Advanced so if they order it, I expect the order to be around 19-25. Possible routes include all current B 747-400 routes. A small order is not economical.

I doubt any of their B 747-400s will go anytime soon. They are still taking delivery of those ex-SQ ones.

According to Patrick Tsai, former Deputy Chairman of CX, CX plans to operate the B 747-400s till they reach the age of 25.

The A340-600/B777-300ER can replace existing A330s/A340-300s or add capacity. Not sure about the B 777-200/300.

[Edited 2005-06-10 09:59:56]

User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12910 times:

CX isn't replacing anything. All aircraft are for growth this decade.
Obviously, the A346 has a slight upper hand in this competition because of existing engine and airframe combination, but the 773ER cannot be ruled out.

Since the timeframe is quite long, it could be an order of 10 to 20 aircraft or CX could start off with only a few airframes and continually add a few every other year like it has done with the A333 & 773s.


User currently offlineAbba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1334 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12400 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 3):
Cathay Pacific is VERY interested in the B 747 Advanced and it is very likely that they will be the launch customer. They will likely place a large order for that.

And again

Quoting United Airline (Reply 12):
CX is evaluating the A 380. Wonder if they will order it.... However, they are more interested in the B 747 Advanced and it is more likely that they will lean towards it.

I do not think so. However, when the A380 flies CX will no doubt be looking carefully at this plane. If the 747 adv ever takes of it will be the very last wagon on the train. And I seriously doubt CX will like to be booked in there. They are fast becoming too Asian for that. No - expect a larger 380 order together with Air China.

Quoting Lutfi (Reply 9):
"CX is very interested in A350 or B787, but as these will not be available until next decade, there is no need to be making any decisions now"

Yep - CX has a strong policy of NOT being a launch customer. (Might even also apply for the 747 adv)

Abba


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9168 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12311 times:

Might be true though they were the launch customer of the B 777-300.

Though I still think they will place a large order for the B 747 Advanced. Many of CX's routes require the capacity of a B 747. They might order some A 380s too. Who knows?

The B 747 Advanced will have a future. A number of airlines have expressed interest in it. It will fill in the gap between the B 777-300ER/A340-600 and the A 380.

Just my 2 cents.
Regards.

[Edited 2005-06-10 13:03:46]

User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4369 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12257 times:

Quoting Abba (Reply 15):
No - expect a larger 380 order together with Air China.

For what - the A380 works largely AGAINST CX's clear preference for adding capacity by increasing frequencies.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9168 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12217 times:

CX can afford anything themselves without having a joint order with anyone.

User currently offlineN754PR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12199 times:

I would like to see a few more A346's and 773ER's

User currently offlineGlareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1304 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12012 times:

Quoting N754PR (Reply 19):
CX isn't replacing anything. All aircraft are for growth this decade.
Obviously, the A346 has a slight upper hand in this competition because of existing engine and airframe combination

Good observation!



There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
User currently offlinePlaneSmart From New Zealand, joined Dec 2004, 905 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11956 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
If CX is indeed extremely interested in the 747ADV, as has been reported and widely claimed on these forums, perhaps Boeing could use that to their advantage and package a 773ER order with being the launch customer for the 747ADV.

B has been doing this, but not in sufficient detail to the point they could actually accept orders for the 747ADV.

Packaging is a good idea, but if the 2 models aren't available simultaneously, the customer has a no cost way to terminate both model orders if one is very late, doesn't reach production after all or doesn't meet performance guarantees.

I'm sure both manufacturers would prefer to get one order confirmed short-term, than possibly two in the medium-term.


User currently offlineCalvin99 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2001, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 10364 times:

I think CX might consider a split order. Unlike SQ, who mentioned specifically that their order will go to only ONE manufacture, CX never mention that and throughout the CX's history, their order tend to split between the two. Last year, when CX ordered 3 A333s (+ 3 lease in), they also order an order for 3 additional B773.

A346 and B773 can serve CX quite well. Should CX wants to slightly modify their policy, CX can continue to stick on their philosophy of having four engines aircraft on trans-oceanic flight such as North America while having the 7773ER on their flight to Europe and perharps Australia.

Currently, CX operates A333 and B773 together and CX seems to be happy with that. A333 operates on route with lower cargo load, on the other hand, B773 operates mostly to Middle East which require more cargo space.

Regarding B744ADV and A380, CX seems to be reluctant to order A380, although the pressure is there. Major Asian carriers order A380, including MH, SQ, KE, TG, CZ and more. A comparison between China Southern Airline and Cathay Pacific will be quite tense as CZ is so close from Hong Kong and CX will never wants to be behind of CZ.

Regarding the issue of not being the launch customer, CX is the first airline to take B777-300 and early customer of A346. If CX really wants to the aircraft, CX will order them, althought they have bad experience with A346.

Just some of my thought..!!


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9599 times:

I think the ball is in Boeing's court on this one.

User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1920 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9316 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
If CX is indeed extremely interested in the 747ADV, as has been reported and widely claimed on these forums, perhaps Boeing could use that to their advantage and package a 773ER order with being the launch customer for the 747ADV.

Airbus can offer the same package, A340-600's and A380-800's in one megadeal.

Quoting PlaneSmart (Reply 19):
Packaging is a good idea, but if the 2 models aren't available simultaneously, the customer has a no cost way to terminate both model orders if one is very late, doesn't reach production after all or doesn't meet performance guarantees.

That's why Airbus is ahead here. The A380 is already up and running and can therefore be combined in an A340 order.

Cheers!  wave 



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9096 times:

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 22):
Airbus can offer the same package, A340-600's and A380-800's in one megadeal.

Maybe, but there's a huge difference in size between the two. They're not quite so complementary.


User currently offlineIowa744Fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8745 times:

Quoting Abba (Reply 13):
Yep - CX has a strong policy of NOT being a launch customer. (Might even also apply for the 747 adv)



Quoting Calvin99 (Reply 20):
Regarding the issue of not being the launch customer, CX is the first airline to take B777-300 and early customer of A346. If CX really wants to the aircraft, CX will order them, althought they have bad experience with A346.

It is a long way back, but wasn't Cathay also one of (if not the first) to operate the RR powered 744 too?


25 Commavia : IMO, this is exactly right. The A380 just doesn't fit into the CX network for two reasons: first, as you rightly say, CX has clearly shown a preferen
26 Post contains images Boegas : Is that a difficault choise... A340 or 777 ? I would take 777
27 GuyBetsy1 : The only reason CX doesn't want the A380 is that Airbus cannot guarantee that the aircraft can fly LAX-HKG on a full load of passengers and cargo. Tho
28 ConcordeBoy : You have no evidence whatsoever to corroborate this.
29 N60659 : You are correct sir. CX ordered a pair of RB211-524 powered 744's in June 1986. BA followed with an order for 16 RR powered aiframes in August '86. I
30 Zvezda : I'd wager that most of CX's (and any other carrier's) passengers don't have any idea how many engines are powering the aircraft they are on.
31 Thrust : I'm guessing Cathay will choose the 777...more passenger luxury, plus they already have a prominent 777 fleet. if I were the owner of any airline..the
32 United Airline : CX plans to operate its B 747-400s till they reach the age of 25. They are still taking delivery of a number of ex-SQ B 747-400s which are around 15
33 RayChuang : I think right now CX is watching whether Airbus can demonstrate they can fly the A380-800 at full MTOW from LAX to HKG year-round. If Airbus does demo
34 Antares : Wake up dreamers. I've spoken to a CX authority. There is no chance of a 747 advanced order. It is as dead as a Rekkof. Antares
35 United Airline : My sources here suggest that they are interested in the B 747 Advanced so I won't rule out the possibilities of such an order. Besides they haven't m
36 Dalecary : So, what did your CX authority tell you they were ordering then Antares.? I don't believe they are anywhere near finalising their future fleet requir
37 777ER : Most of CX's passengers prefer to fly on aircraft with 4 engines over long stretches. And where is your 100% concrete evidence to prove this?
38 Antares : Dale, The choice will be as advised to the markets, between the 777-300ER or A346 in the 2007-2012 time frame. They also advised that they will contem
39 United Airline : The B 747 replacement is not in a rush. They are still taking deliveries of ex-SQ's B 747-400s. I believe the B 747 Advanced will have a chance in CX'
40 Zvezda : The only dependency the B747Adv program has on the B787 program is for the engines. The engines will be available in 2007. If the B747Adv goes forwar
41 Antares : Zvezda, Hi. That is completely contrary to what Boeing recently said in Australia. It was apparently hard to nail them down too on the technology migr
42 Glareskin : I'm one of the passengers. He is right!
43 United Airline : When will the first ex-SQ B 747-400 pax be in service? There are 4 right? When will the last one be delivered?
44 Jakob77 : Besides being the launch customer of the 773, CX is currently the launch customer for the 744SF. It's not a completely new aircraft but it's still a
45 Jakob77 : I think it's a matter of time when CX realizes twins are the way to go for long-haul in the future. They've already gone from the 3-holers to A330/777
46 United Airline : True but can't they use the A 380 to add capacity? CX is one of the fastest growing airlines in that region and many of CX's flights are very busy. I
47 Jakob77 : CX has enough aircrafts coming in until 2007 with the additional A330s/744s awaiting delivery/conversion. The 346/773ER order is for post-2007 fleet
48 Antares : Jakob77, I'm fascinated by your perspective. And you may be right. But you are one of the very few people I've ever heard from in China (and you are i
49 United Airline : Disneyland Hong Kong will be very successful I am sure. I suppose CX has enough aircraft until 2008-2010. They are still awaiting delivery of the A 33
50 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Ahhh... Nice remark Antares, but I'm not going into that, because this is about CX... However, I do agree with you that CX is more into the A380. The
51 United Airline : Hong Kong is an SAR and you can't really count Hong Kong as 'mainland China'. Besides the principal shareholder of CX is Swire which is a very British
52 Jakob77 : Antares, Thanks for your appreciation. For cargo, CX is converting some of their old 744s into 744SFs. CX also has Air HK operating in conjunction wit
53 United Airline : CX is converting a number of B 747-400s from OTHER OPERATORS into B 747-400SFs. 4 ex-SQ B 747-400s will be joining CX's passenger fleet. They are con
54 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Now, they can do like other airlines, replacing some B744's with an B773 or A346. Don't forget that if they order the A380, it won't be ready for the
55 Jakob77 : Hmm.. okay so what difference does it make? Older CX pax 744s converted into 744SFs. Ex-SQ birds becoming "new" CX pax 744s. The first of the 2nd han
56 Post contains links United Airline : From what I heard, CX is converting ONE of its own B 747-400s into B 747-400SF. They will also be converting a number of ex-SQ B 747-400s to SFs. Even
57 Dalecary : Yep, I'll agree with that 100% Antares. I just don't think they can get a competitive product out of each manufacturer in the relative segments. The
58 Zvezda : By all accounts, the A350 is optimized for long haul. It would not be very efficient for regional operations without a different (smaller) wing.
59 United Airline : OK I agree. CX B 777s are very new and they need not be replaced anytime soon. If they order the B 777-300ER or A 340-600 I don't see why they need t
60 United Airline : Wonder if/when will we see AVOD on CX's fleet. SQ and VS have AVOD. MH and QF are installing it.
61 Post contains images BoogyJay : Yes, it might be. But everyone thought the same thing when they opened Disneyland Paris, which finally has several time almost bankrupted. Now they a
62 Zvezda : CX will weigh on the one hand the cost of replacing the A330-300s and A340-300s and on the other hand the difference in operating costs. If they woul
63 RayChuang : I still think that CX is keeping their options open in terms of future widebody airliner purchases and/or long-term leases. Hence the reason why the A
64 United Airline : Umm......... A 350 or B 787, B 777-300ER or A 340-600, B 777-200/300, B 747 Advanced, A 380 (MAYBE!) That would be cool. Disneyland Hong Kong will be
65 Goodday : Let 2 manufacturers compete and buy both Airbus and Boeing with heavy discount as much as possible. CX used to buy planes in a good value for money. I
66 Glareskin : Where did the other 340 vs 777 thread go?
67 CX flyboy : Cathay's tristars mostly came from Eastern, not Delta, I believe.
68 United Airline : Correct. The B 707s came from NW.
69 B-HOP : I have just seen Disney HK from the press, I am not holding high hopes (yet). Paris Disney were given high expectation but ended up struggling, i was
70 Fedexexpress : Please chose the 777 !!! Eric
71 United Airline : Well said! Though I think Disneyland Hong Kong will be a very important asset to Hong Kong and will be a succcess. And I am sure it will boost intern
72 Post contains images Intothinair : CX, go for the 773ER. Just about the same range as the A346HGW, slightly more seat capacity, and a better economics. As well as that, after AC has jus
73 CX flyboy : Who says it will be either the A340-600 or 777-300ER? Everyone assumes it will be one or the other...but it could well be both. Also, the 777-200LR wi
74 United Airline : Then who? Any news regarding the B 747 Advanced? I am sure CX is still very interested Oh good! Any AVOD in economy class? Coz SQ does and they are e
75 CX flyboy : The interior of B-HKD is from B-HOU, which is now being converted into a freighter. As far as I know, there will be no new cabins until 2007, when the
76 Post contains links CX flyboy : here's B-HKD: http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=491860
77 United Airline : Oh that's good! And eventually CX will have 22 B 747-400s for its pax fleet right?
78 United Airline : So is B-HKD in service now? Any AVOD in economy class? Coz SQ does and they are ex-SQ B 747-400s. Have they submitted their B 773ER/A 346IGW RFP? No n
79 Post contains links Zvezda : http://www.flightinternational.com/A...g+nears+derivative+decisions+.html "... says Mulally, who adds that entry into service would be either late 20
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