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When Does US/HP Take Delivery Of Their A330 Order?  
User currently offlineBallsdeep From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 56 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4730 times:

When does US/HP take the delivery of their A330 order? Also are they A330-300 or A300-200?

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4710 times:

Quoting Ballsdeep (Thread starter):
When does US/HP take the delivery of their A330 order? Also are they A330-300 or A300-200?

I think they would have to have the merger approved first. So it could take a while before you see deliveries for the new US/HP

Hawk44



Never under estimate the power of US
User currently offlineUKA330 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4704 times:
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I'm not sure when they are due to be delivered, but I think they will be A332's.

User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4689 times:

There are 10x A330-200 on order. They were initially scheduled to be delivered to US between 2007 and 2009; it's possible Airbus might accelerate that a little bit now if they've got slots available.

US currently has 9x A330-300.

US also has 6x A320 and 13x A321 on order. They were initially scheduled to be delivered between 2007-2009, then pushed back a few months ago to 2008-2010, and now pushed back with the merger to 2009-2010.

HP also has A320-series aircraft on order; I'm not sure on the number or timing of those.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4513 times:

I am a bit confused by your post - US has an existing order for ten A332s which are intended as 762 replacements - this will supplment US's current fleet of A333s which have been in service for a few years. The status of this order was unclear due to US's financial troubles. But the A332 does not have any direct link with the HP/US deal...except of course that US may be in the financial position to accept delivery of these previously ordered airliners if the merger goes through.

Were you making reference to the controversial provision of financing deal that Airbus has offered HP/US? Airbus has agreed to make certain loans to a combined HP/US and part of the deal was that the combined airline placed an order for (20) A350s......being that the HP/US merger has not yet been approved, and being that US still has the bankruptcy court to deal with, and being that the A350 has not yet been officially launched, its hard to say if and when the subject A350s will be delivered.


User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 4384 times:

From the merger press release:

To rationalize international flying, the merged company will work with Airbus to transition to an all-Airbus international fleet of A330 aircraft and, beginning in 2011, A350 aircraft.

US will receive the A330-200s before the A350s are available in 2011. As far as I am aware, no one has released a new schedule for their arrival; it only makes sense that they will be arriving more or less as originally planned in 2007-09. I have heard rumors that the combined airline might accelerate the deliveries a little bit, but it couldn't be by a whole lot, since 2007 is fast approaching.

Am I making it any clearer?



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4336 times:

Quoting A330323X (Reply 5):
From the merger press release:

To rationalize international flying, the merged company will work with Airbus to transition to an all-Airbus international fleet of A330 aircraft and, beginning in 2011, A350 aircraft.

US will receive the A330-200s before the A350s are available in 2011. As far as I am aware, no one has released a new schedule for their arrival; it only makes sense that they will be arriving more or less as originally planned in 2007-09. I have heard rumors that the combined airline might accelerate the deliveries a little bit, but it couldn't be by a whole lot, since 2007 is fast approaching.

Am I making it any clearer?

Thanks for your kind post - but I did understand your original post, I was referring to the thread starter, I was not sure if he/she was confusing the A332s ordered by US a few years ago with the A350s that are involved in the HP/US merger + Airbus financing deal.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4278 times:

Airbus gave that condition of 20x A350's... but what if by 2011 US/HP is still not in the financial condition to pay for them? Is US then going to be sued for a billion or so by Airbus? I'm not bashing US with this one... just bringing up a very viable possibility with today's economy.

Are the A350's possibly going to be replacement to some of the older A330's that US currently has on fleet? By 2011 they will be starting to show a little age. If not, that seems as if US/HP will be increasing their international flying by a pretty significant amount.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4254 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 7):
Airbus gave that condition of 20x A350's... but what if by 2011 US/HP is still not in the financial condition to pay for them? Is US then going to be sued for a billion or so by Airbus? I'm not bashing US with this one... just bringing up a very viable possibility with today's economy.

Are the A350's possibly going to be replacement to some of the older A330's that US currently has on fleet? By 2011 they will be starting to show a little age. If not, that seems as if US/HP will be increasing their international flying by a pretty significant amount.

You raise valid points - the answers to your questions are simply not known at this point in time. If US/HP cannot afford to accept delivery of the A350s, they will default under the purchase agreement for the airplanes, ie loose deposits and face other penalities, and it wont be the first time that has happened. We dont know if there will be a cross-default provision under the loan agreement - ie, a default under the aircraft purchase agreement would automatically trigger a default under the loan agreement causing the Airbus loan to become due. It all remains to be seen - at this point, the HP/US deal is far from done, US still has to wind up its bankruptcy proceeding and enter into the merger, Airbus has yet to write out its check to the combined airline, and the A350 is still not officially launched, so it will take a rather long time to get the details on this complicated deal.

Your second question - what will HP/US do with the 20 A350s when they are delivered around 2011? My guess is expand and open new routes - the A350 is a big aircraft with lots of seats and has an awful lot of range so anything is possible, say routes out of PHX and LAS to Europe and Asia, a PHL-Tokyo route, a PHL-Hong Kong route, LAS to Buenos Aires - who knows what HP/US will have in mind at that point. I am certain that no decisions have yet been made at this early date, there are so many variables. I do not think that the A350s are intended to replace the A330s - the A333s will remain I guess and the A332s previously ordered by US will replace their aging 762 fleet (although I have always thought that the A332 is rather big to replace the 762 on most of the routes that the 762 now flies....it could hurt yeilds which would again impact the airline's financial picture).


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4225 times:

Thanks for the quick reply.

User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4166 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 7):
Airbus gave that condition of 20x A350's... but what if by 2011 US/HP is still not in the financial condition to pay for them? Is US then going to be sued for a billion or so by Airbus?

Airbus has agreed to finance the aircraft itself if US/HP can't find other financing.

From this bankruptcy filing:

In consideration for their commitment to purchase the A350 aircraft, Airbus shall provide the Buyers with a $250 million senior secured line of credit, which may be utilized in part for payment of designated obligations of the Debtors and otherwise for general corporate purposes, and has also agreed, upon the satisfaction of certain conditions precedent, to provide certain back-stop financing in connection with the Buyers’ purchase of the A350 aircraft.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
I do not think that the A350s are intended to replace the A330s - the A333s will remain I guess and the A332s previously ordered by US will replace their aging 762 fleet (although I have always thought that the A332 is rather big to replace the 762 on most of the routes that the 762 now flies....it could hurt yeilds which would again impact the airline's financial picture).

I agree that the A350s will add to, and not replace, the A330s. By 2011, the oldest A330 will only be 11 years old, which is really nothing. Also, while the A330-200s should pretty much replace the B767-200ERs across the Atlantic on a one-for-one basis, with perhaps a route or two being dropped and one or two being added, I do not think that the 762s will be retired right away. There's a good chance they will be placed into Hawaii service for a few more years.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4106 times:

The 762's could later also be used a-la Delta. Hub to Hub (CLT/PHL-PHX/LAS) or Hub-Leisure (CLT-insert random vacation Destination here)

I assume there will be alot of PHL-PHX runs in the future... You're not gonna be able to connect every East-coast city with the PHX hub, nor every Western destination with the East coast hub. Although having to go (EAS outstation)-PIT-PHL-PHX-XXX would suck. Hopefully they'll also keep PIT-PHX/LAS up nicely as well.


User currently offlineDCAflyboy From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4033 times:

Can someone tell what the main difference is between the A332 and the A333? I guess seating capacity is an obvious one because I believe the A332 is shorter. So will the A332 be able to fly further since it maybe seats less paxs? Would the engines be the same as US' A333 engines? I know there are some performance issues with the engines we chose for the A333.

User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4020 times:

Quoting DCAflyboy (Reply 12):
So will the A332 be able to fly further since it maybe seats less paxs?

Yep.

Quoting DCAflyboy (Reply 12):
Would the engines be the same as US' A333 engines?

Most likely.

Quoting DCAflyboy (Reply 12):
I know there are some performance issues with the engines we chose for the A333.

Yeah, the problem is that Pratt didn't come through with the engine we ordered.  Angry



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineDCAflyboy From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3990 times:

Ok. Thanks for the info. Very interesting about the engines and Pratt. People seem to have blamed management for buying the wrong engines and for being "cheap" when it came to those engines. So it sounds like Pratt dropped the ball on this one.

Has US seeked out any type of compensation or reimbursement due to possible loss of revenue, let's say on cargo, because of Pratt? I seem to hear there are often weight issues, particularly to Rome. Is it possible to put different, bigger engines on them?


User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 43
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3941 times:

Quoting DCAflyboy (Reply 14):
Ok. Thanks for the info. Very interesting about the engines and Pratt. People seem to have blamed management for buying the wrong engines and for being "cheap" when it came to those engines. So it sounds like Pratt dropped the ball on this one.

US placed their engine order, as many airlines do, a few months after placing the airframe order. So they no doubt bargained quite a bit with the various engine manufacturers. And many think that Pratt & Whitney gave US a killer deal, especially considering that US was primarily a GE customer, and already had the CF6 on its 767s. US placed its engine order for PW4168A engines for the first 4 (I think) airfames and PW4173 engines on all subsequent deliveries. Well, to make a crappy story short, the PW4173 was but a figment in Pratt's imagination and never made it to market.

Quoting DCAflyboy (Reply 14):
Has US seeked out any type of compensation or reimbursement due to possible loss of revenue, let's say on cargo, because of Pratt?

Not that I know of, but it wouldn't surprise me if PW gave them a few million in hush money.

Quoting DCAflyboy (Reply 14):
I seem to hear there are often weight issues, particularly to Rome.

Yes, and that's also one of the reasons the 330s don't go to MUC, and why US doesn't serve ATH at all.

Quoting DCAflyboy (Reply 14):
Is it possible to put different, bigger engines on them?

No, that wouldn't be cost-effective.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineDCAflyboy From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

A330323X -- Thanks for the info.

User currently offlineHanginOut From Austria, joined May 2005, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3758 times:

Quoting A330323X (Reply 10):
In consideration for their commitment to purchase the A350 aircraft, Airbus shall provide the Buyers with a $250 million senior secured line of credit, which may be utilized in part for payment of designated obligations of the Debtors and otherwise for general corporate purposes, and has also agreed, upon the satisfaction of certain conditions precedent, to provide certain back-stop financing in connection with the Buyers’ purchase of the A350 aircraft.

The conditions on this deal that US/HP has with Airbus stipulate that the A350 must meet certain performance criteria, when compared to the 787 family. That way US/HP has an out and won't be forced to buy A350s if they aren't as cost effective as the 787. Otherwise, they could be forced to buy an aircraft that doesn't meet their needs, in which case they'd be better off without financing from Airbus.



Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
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