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SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced  
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10817 posts, RR: 9
Posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10302 times:

Singapore Airlines interest in the 747 isn´t dead.
Flight International reports in their current issue that SIA wants to order more aircraft for the top end of their fleet - more A380s -or 747 Advanced. Boeings recent presentations have reportedly raised SQs interest in the next generation Jumbo Jet again.

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10241 times:

That's good. Hope they will order the B 747 Advanced. Let's say 25+.

I am sure they will top up their A 380 orders eventually.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10235 times:

That is positive news. On one hand, the A380 has an edge as they would be additions to an existing fleet. The current 744 are on the way out if I am not mistaken and 747Adv would be a new type with all that entails. On the other hand the A380 is running late which does not help in a sales pitch for more A380. Thanks for posting that.

I really hope that they do select 747 and give the legendary 747 another lease on life.

Which makes me think though...if Boeing manages to create and capture the niche above the existing 747-400 and below the A380, that would seem to short circuit the A380 sales plan. Any thoughts on that?


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10203 times:

The current B 747-400s will stay for a while. When they are due for replacement, the B 747 Advanced can do the job.

The A 380s will be used on ultra high capacity routes.


User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1938 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10192 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 2):
On the other hand the A380 is running late which does not help in a sales pitch for more A380.

I think you can't combine this order with the delay of their first plane. Singapore was very aware delays could rise when ordering the plane. Also their representative in Toulouse kept the management in the loop. A order for more A380's will be for delivery some years from now. Airbus won't have any problems anymore with the production and Singapore knows this. Airbus might throw in some discount because of the delay, but I think this discount will be given in the A350 offer.

Cheers!  wave 



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10161 times:

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 4):
Airbus might throw in some discount because of the delay, but I think this discount will be given in the A350 offer.

They are more likely to order the B 777-200LR and the B 787 I think. They already have the world's largest B 777 fleet.

Just my 2 cents.

Anyway, GO SQ!!!!!!!!!


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10140 times:

Quoting NA (Thread starter):
Flight International reports in their current issue that SIA wants to order more aircraft for the top end of their fleet - more A380s -or 747 Advanced. Boeings recent presentations have reportedly raised SQs interest in the next generation Jumbo Jet again.

IMO you can look at this any of two ways:

# 1. SQ has been presented with a product compelling enough to consider breaking from their plan of "mis-using" A380 on 747 routes.

# 2. SQ knows that if no 747-Adv is launched, then this is their last opportunity to get Airbus to offer a competitive offer for A380. They won't come cheap when it's the only large aircraft on the market  Wink


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10113 times:

LifelinerOne,

While I am sure Singapore and other airlines were aware a delay was possible, by all published accounts they were caught offguard by the 6-month and expressed frustration that Airbus knew about the German production problem during rollout in January and got around to informing customers only within the last few weeks. I do not think that even their rep in Tolouse was informed either by the sounds of it. My point is raising this is that Airbus has to work hard to regain some of the trust that may have been lost recently.

Other than that, I think your optimistic view is fair.

PS I agree with DFWRevolution 100%. Well spoken.

[Edited 2005-06-11 17:13:57]

User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10055 times:

The 747adv could be useful as a freighter for SQ, so if they chose that, there's no reason why a few 744adv pax could hurt, I guess.

User currently offlineLeigh pilgrim From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10034 times:

As maybe mentioned above, this could just be politics again, sadly they may only be interested in the B747Adv to get Airbus to 'make some changes', like get there A380 delivered on time?!!, a bit of........... 'OK if you cant do it, maybe they can?'

User currently offlineBoogyJay From France, joined May 2005, 490 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10024 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):

# 2. SQ knows that if no 747-Adv is launched, then this is their last opportunity to get Airbus to offer a competitive offer for A380. They won't come cheap when it's the only large aircraft on the market

That is completely true! If Boeing doesn't come up with the B747Adv, Airbus will be alone on the market of 450+ pax aircrafts. Hence, the prices will skyrocket. Having no competition is not good in any business...
A lot of them sure want Boeing to go ahead with the B747Adv.

In the other hand, the B747Adv has a good niche in the market. Some only need a 450 seats a/c, some do only need a 500+ seats, others need both, ...
More choices on the market means more suitable a/c for every company, hence better economics for everyone -us, average pax, included Big grin -.

For the delay disappointment, even if they were very happy about it (growth not as big as predicted, more time needed for crew and staff trainings, ...), they won't come and say: "Hey  bigthumbsup , that's great news, we were actually in a rush too and that helps us a lot!". They will rather use the opportunity to have better bargains...
That being said, it might very well have disappointed them Big grin
But let's wait for what will actually happen. The plane can be even more delayed but it's also not impossible that the delay decreases or even disappears.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9977 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):

# 1. SQ has been presented with a product compelling enough to consider breaking from their plan of "mis-using" A380 on 747 routes.

Might be a way to negotiate a better deal in the future....

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 10):
In the other hand, the B747Adv has a good niche in the market. Some only need a 450 seats a/c, some do only need a 500+ seats, others need both, ...

I hope they will order it.


User currently offlineAF-A319 From France, joined Oct 1999, 603 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9970 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
# 2. SQ knows that if no 747-Adv is launched, then this is their last opportunity to get Airbus to offer a competitive offer for A380. They won't come cheap when it's the only large aircraft on the market Wink

You're totally right. For all current and future A380 customers, having an alternative on the market means a lower price tag for the airbus whale. I don't think that airlines buying VLAs are ready to experience what they endured with the 744 monopoly.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8037 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9920 times:

I think right now any more future 747 orders for SQ will really depend on if Airbus can successfully demonstrate 8,000 still-air nautical mile range on the A380-800 at the common MTOW of the plane. If Airbus does reach that goal expect SQ to buy convert all their options for the A388 to full orders and (in my humble opinion!  Smile ) possibly buy another 10 more planes.

As for SQ getting the 747 Advanced, they are very definitely interested in the freighter version of that plane. That could make it possible to fly from SIN almost to all of Europe non-stop with a reasonable cargo load.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9893 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 13):
I think right now any more future 747 orders for SQ will really depend on if Airbus can successfully demonstrate 8,000 still-air nautical mile range on the A380-800 at the common MTOW of the plane. If Airbus does reach that goal expect SQ to buy convert all their options for the A388 to full orders and (in my humble opinion! ) possibly buy another 10 more planes.

As for SQ getting the 747 Advanced, they are very definitely interested in the freighter version of that plane. That could make it possible to fly from SIN almost to all of Europe non-stop with a reasonable cargo load.

They might want more than 25 A 380s I think. They might even place additional orders for it.

The B 747 Advanced can fill in the gap between the B 777-300ER and the A 380. It has a chance I think....


User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3768 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9851 times:

I would love to see a mixed order!

The A380 could be used just on routes like LHR-SIN, SIN-SYD, SIN-FRA......
Whereas the 747ADV could be used to replace the 744's on smaller routes!

Common Boeing annouce the 747ADV!

Rob!


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9801 times:

SIN-FRA? I think SQ would prefer to operate 3x daily SIN-FRA than upgauge to the WhaleJet. We'll see.

User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9733 times:

Who said they have to operate the same plane on every flight to FRA?

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9523 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 17):
Who said they have to operate the same plane on every flight to FRA?

Huh? Did you infer that from what I wrote? I didn't imply that.

SQ will probably not want to upgauge SQ025/SQ026 because the WhaleJet would be too large for the tag to JFK. SQ325/SQ326 are rarely full and fly wingtip with a LH B747-400 (I fly the route 4 to 6 times per year) so upgauging to a WhaleJet doesn't make sense here either.

Another option for SQ would be to change the schedule for SQ026 as follows (eliminating the all-day JFK non-utilization):
SIN-FRA 0800 1430
FRA-JFK 1630 1845
JFK-FRA 2135 1115+1 (current schedule SQ025)
FRA-SIN 1235 0630+1 (current schedule SQ025)

... and add a B777-200ER that operates SIN-FRA on a schedule about an hour earlier than SQ026 does now:
SIN-FRA 2250 0530+1
FRA-SIN 0730 0130+1

The result would be:
SIN-FRA
0800 1430 B747-400
1405 2045 B747-400
2250 0530+1 B777-200
FRA-SIN
0730 0130+1 B777-200
1235 0630+1 B747-400
2225 1625+1 B747-400


User currently offlineNW727251ADV From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9457 times:

I was hoping Boeing would have dropped the 747ADV like a bad habit until I saw a full feature article of it in a special edition of Airliners magazine. Apparently not too many A.netters have seen the magazine because I've heard no mention of it. Believe you me, I must admit that 747Adv is impressive to say the least. It's really not a warmed-over -400. It may look mostly the same on the outside but what Boeing is planning on doing on the inside is really what would sell the 747A to me if I were CEO of an airline.

Boeing is planning on using the entire length of the top deck behind the distinctive hump as "Sky Suites" for business class passengers. I was impressed by this because I thought they were only going to utilize a small portion of that space. And they eliminated the straight staircase to the upper deck, found on the 747-400, with a curved staircase thats positioned more towards the right side of the plane (I believe its the right side). The staircase is awesome. Passengers will be able to see all the way through to the top deck from the bottom of the staircase. Its going to be a huge open area from top to bottom. And Boeing is changing the entryway between doors 3 & 4 (I believe) to look more like a lobby-area. Airlines can place a large bar there. As currently configured, the doors 3 & 4 entryway leads into an unwelcoming galley area. And of course the interior design looks better than the 777.

But enough rambling, I think that SQ colors would look beautiful on a 747Adv but of course, that isn't basis for SQ buying them. I'm not sure what SQ's need are of present, but I know one thing ... I definitely do want Boeing to launch the 747Adv now.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8478 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9362 times:

The 747ADV makes sense for SQ - especially if they get approval for the SYD - LAX route, but with size restrictions that would keep the 380 off the route. The 747 ADV will sit nicely between the 777 and 380 and will therefore be practical when he economies (or restrictions) of a route rule out the 777/380 options.

I believe that the 747 ADV gives SQ@ more precision in assigning the right plane for each route, with shifts during the year to accommodate high and low seasons. I also think that SQ wants to be able to continue to put pressure on Airbus with regards to 380 pricing and performance. The 747 ADV does that very well.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9332 times:

They better order it then.

GO BOEING AND GO SQ!!!!!!!!!


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9318 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 18):
Another option for SQ would be to change the schedule for SQ026 as follows (eliminating the all-day JFK non-utilization):
SIN-FRA 0800 1430
FRA-JFK 1630 1845
JFK-FRA 2135 1115+1 (current schedule SQ025)
FRA-SIN 1235 0630+1 (current schedule SQ025)

... and add a B777-200ER that operates SIN-FRA on a schedule about an hour earlier than SQ026 does now:
SIN-FRA 2250 0530+1
FRA-SIN 0730 0130+1

The result would be:
SIN-FRA
0800 1430 B747-400
1405 2045 B747-400
2250 0530+1 B777-200
FRA-SIN
0730 0130+1 B777-200
1235 0630+1 B747-400
2225 1625+1 B747-400

Or they could just operate an A380 and a 773ER. Using the 777 for the SIN-FRA-NYC-FRA-SIN flights and the A380 for SIN-FRA-SIN. Would save em a lot of fuel, a couple of slots, free up a plane, be more viable on the 'rarely full' JFK flight, and result in roughly the same capacity SIN-FRA-SIN as there is now. To me, this sounds so much more logical, i've got a feeling i must have calculated something wrong.

And i'd be shocked if FRA didn't get upgraded (upgauged) to an A380 (whalejet).


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9238 times:

How is SIN-FRA-JFK doing recently? Heard that flights are full from time to time. If that's the case they can easily put a B 747 Advanced or even an A 380 in this route.

User currently offlinePHXinterrupted From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9030 times:

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 4):
I think you can't combine this order with the delay of their first plane. Singapore was very aware delays could rise when ordering the plane. Also their representative in Toulouse kept the management in the loop. A order for more A380's will be for delivery some years from now. Airbus won't have any problems anymore with the production and Singapore knows this. Airbus might throw in some discount because of the delay, but I think this discount will be given in the A350 offer.

This is hard to believe given the statements that both Singapore and Qantas made about the delays.



Keepin' it real.
25 Dutchjet : When SQ goes airplane shopping and is in a buying mood, its very hard to predict the result. SQ has sent mixed signals concerning the 747A, at one poi
26 DL021 : I read that Airliners review on the 747A and it does look pretty spectacular. I was particularly amused when they showed a bar and a shower. It looked
27 HNL-Jack : I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned operational versatility. The 747A will be able to operate from current facilities all over the world. On t
28 Luke : I was thinking the same, although no one else had mentioned it so I then thought that it might not be the case.. It's certainly another real advantag
29 Zvezda : There is no way that SQ is going to downgauge SQ025/SQ026 to the B777-300ER because between SIN and FRA it is often full with good yields. It also ma
30 PlaneSmart : That is part of the thinking at SQ, and precisely the fears B are trying to exploit as the sands of time run out for a conventional 747ADV launch (ie
31 BoogyJay : No one mentioned it because most of the places where SQ will use their A380 are ready -or will be at the time of the EIS-. So it may be an advantage
32 777ER : the A380 has an edge as they would be additions to an existing fleet. The current 744 are on the way out if I am not mistaken and 747Adv would be a ne
33 N79969 : 777ER, Notice the verb tense indicates future/potential form. Do you not have something more substantive to comment on?
34 Intothinair : Interesting point. Though, up to 2009, my guess would be that SQ would use the A388 on the SIN-FRA-JFK as you mentioned, and the 747-400 on the SQ325
35 Jacobin777 : Boeing never said the 747ADV will sell a 1000 units...but only a few hundred...that being said, I think they will definitely launch it........I think
36 Post contains images Lehpron : Unless they add the order to their current with Airbus, wouldn't newer orders take longer to deliver? It may end up that purchasing a new 747Adv will
37 Post contains images B787 : The 747A simply makes sense for airlines like SQ. I'm not experienced in flight operations but it seems to me that the A380, although absolutely brill
38 Post contains images RJ111 : That suprises me as SQ025/SQ026 leaves FRA at 10 to midnight and arrives at SIN at 6:30am. Depends if you're good at sleeping on flights i guess. I'm
39 Zvezda : RJ111, SQ325 operates wingtip-to-wingtip with LH776. That, more than the timing, is the reason why SQ enjoys higher loads and better yields on SQ025.
40 United Airline : I also heard that SQ is very interested in the B 747 Advanced. Can anyone post the link regarding this article? Thanks
41 RayChuang : I am not sure if SQ wants to use the 747 Advanced on routes to the USA such as SIN-HKG-SFO and SIN-TPE-LAX. These routes generate traffic far larger t
42 United Airline : SIN-TPE-LAX is a B 777-200ER I think. SIN-NRT-LAX is a B 747-400 though. Which route is busier? SIN-LHR or SIN-HKG-SFO?
43 ComeAndGo : Wasn't he idea here that the 787 was going to take the market from the A380. What happened to that idea? I guess it never did after-all. Now that the
44 Abbs380 : I know I shouldn't ask this, but there is a little devil sitting on my shoulder telling me to do it, so here goes. What if the 747A is NOT launched an
45 Ikramerica : What a silly statement. The 747Adv is intended to sell in the 200+ range, to fill a niche market demand for the next 10-15 years, while an all new de
46 Post contains links United Airline : Go to: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q2/nr_050608g.html Boeing plans to sell 900 airplanes 747-size or larger (approx. 450 airplanes in the
47 N79969 : Come and Go, I do not think Boeing ever cast the argument that the 787 would compete against the 380. Actually I am certain. They are two very differe
48 United Airline : Boeing can dominate the B 747 Advanced size market while Airbus can have the A 380 size market.
49 RJ111 : Boeing say there is a market for 900 planes, not that they're going to get every one, they've already missed 150. They actaully suggest they could ge
50 Zvezda : SQ have stated that SIN-HKG-SFO will be upgauged to the WhaleJet. SIN-TPE-LAX is, as United Airline posted, operated by B777 and will not be upgauged
51 Post contains images Lehpron : Which I shall respond again to. I know what you mean, bare in mind that when Airbus began the A3XX study it was at a time when Boeing was studying 74
52 United Airline : Hope the B 747 Advanced will outsell the B 747-400 (HOPE!) How big was the proposed MD 12? From what I heard it was a single deckor right? Boeing neve
53 Post contains images Lehpron : There is a pix floating around, do a search on A.net, it showed a double deck but it was like 747 with the cockpit on the second deck. But I did see
54 Ken777 : I strongly believe that B will go with the 747 ADV. I would not be surprised to see JAL as the launch customer, with others like BA and CX taking late
55 Zvezda : It used to take about 6 years to develop a new airliner. The advent of better CAD tools has reduced this to 4 years in the case of the B787. Boeing h
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